KickStarter Solasta: Crown of the Magister Thread - now with Palace of Ice sequel DLC

[ERYFKRAD]

Unfortunately, concentration only fixes the ridiculous amount of prebuffing you had to do in previous editions. The problem it creates, however, is that you are only ever using a single buff that is the "best in slot" for basically any situation (Haste). In the system I'm cooking up, buffs last for a very short amount of time (f.e. 3 rounds), so it's not feasible to cast them out of combat and to stack too many of them at once unless you commit multiple spellcasters to that.

Or just design encounters where using ultra optimum solutions will bite you in the ass, like one of those boss thingies that get a free action(or two) for every action you take.

 

[Lacrymas]

Unfortunately, concentration only fixes the ridiculous amount of prebuffing you had to do in previous editions. The problem it creates, however, is that you are only ever using a single buff that is the "best in slot" for basically any situation (Haste). In the system I'm cooking up, buffs last for a very short amount of time (f.e. 3 rounds), so it's not feasible to cast them out of combat and to stack too many of them at once unless you commit multiple spellcasters to that.

Or just design encounters where using ultra optimum solutions will bite you in the ass, like one of those boss thingies that get a free action(or two) for every action you take.

That will eventually get old and it will get old faster than you think.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Unfortunately, concentration only fixes the ridiculous amount of prebuffing you had to do in previous editions. The problem it creates, however, is that you are only ever using a single buff that is the "best in slot" for basically any situation (Haste). In the system I'm cooking up, buffs last for a very short amount of time (f.e. 3 rounds), so it's not feasible to cast them out of combat and to stack too many of them at once unless you commit multiple spellcasters to that.

Or just design encounters where using ultra optimum solutions will bite you in the ass, like one of those boss thingies that get a free action(or two) for every action you take.

That will eventually get old and it will get old faster than you think.

Only if you use it in every single encounter you damned autist.

 

[Lacrymas]

But you'd still have to contend with prebuffing for everything else. My dislike of it has been thoroughly documented. I also dislike solvable mechanics, like concentration.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Concentration is a shit solution for a shit problem. They should've just pared down the buff categories and had them be non-stackable with the most powerful spells always overwriting/resisting the lesser ones (to avoid some weird powergamer shit like screwing the big bad by overwriting his buffs with level 1 spells and cantrips) and possibly by dumping some types of buffs altogether since a lot of it was just power creep.

 

[Nortar]

The problem it creates, however, is that you are only ever using a single buff that is the "best in slot" for basically any situation (Haste).

Or just design encounters where using ultra optimum solutions will bite you in the ass, like one of those boss thingies that get a free action(or two) for every action you take.

That will eventually get old and it will get old faster than you think.

There's more than one way to skin a goblin.

Enemies can use Slow to counter Haste's effects.
Or the encounter can be designed in such a way as to break party's casters concentration (anything goes from "ethereal tremors", "soulchilling shrieks" and "swarms of insects" to good old thump on the head) in the first couple of rounds when keeping Haste going would have been the most profitable.

Of course making this shit happen in every single encounter just wont be fun. Haste is a powerful buff and it should have it's uses.
But I don't think it's too hard to create a number of situations calling for a different tactical solution.
And it would be the icing on the cake, if the one-trick-ponyhaste players get cought with their pants down.

 

[Grunker]

Unfortunately, concentration only fixes the ridiculous amount of prebuffing you had to do in previous editions. The problem it creates, however, is that you are only ever using a single buff that is the "best in slot" for basically any situation (Haste). In the system I'm cooking up, buffs last for a very short amount of time (f.e. 3 rounds), so it's not feasible to cast them out of combat and to stack too many of them at once unless you commit multiple spellcasters to that.

The latter solution isn't exactly novel - it's very common in jRPGs and often lead to buffs being either not worth spending the turn on or ridicoulously OP to compensate for the low duration - and regardless of both, annoying to use because you have to recast them all the time. I'm playing Battle Chasers right now and it really highlights the latter problem because especially tanks are very reliant on low duration buffs so Red Monika's turns end up being just cycling through evasion buffs and taunts whereas Calibretto and Garrison can get much more creative with their turns.

I think the best practice solution is to make buffs impactful and long lasting but just limit your system to very few key ones, which has the side-benefit of enforcing strong class identity because you can make classes stand out by having access to one of the few buffs. Ironically MMOs were arguably first movers on heading in this design direction.

Another solution is to give characters "buff slots" - i.e. you can be affected by three at a time. That means casters still need to cover a variety off buffs and aren't as limited as with Concentration, so you can have many buffs in your system, but you still limit the tracking issues for individual characters.

 

[Lacrymas]

Does Battle Chasers feature limited spell slots? I don't think it would be viable to keep wasting spell slots on a buff in a Vancian system.

 

[Grunker]

Does Battle Chasers feature limited spell slots? I don't think it would be viable to keep wasting spell slots on a buff in a Vancian system.

What? No, it features the standard jRPG solution (your solution) of limited duration:

The latter solution (here I am refering to your solution of duration limiting) isn't exactly novel - it's very common in jRPGs and often lead to buffs being either not worth spending the turn on or ridicoulously OP to compensate for the low duration - and regardless of both, annoying to use because you have to recast them all the time. I'm playing Battle Chasers right now and it really highlights the latter problem (the latter problem = low duration buffs being annoying) because especially tanks are very reliant on low duration buffs so Red Monika's turns end up being just cycling through evasion buffs and taunts whereas Calibretto and Garrison can get much more creative with their turns.

 

[Roguey]

Buffs are way too powerful in past D&D editions and the fact that you are left feeling they are not worth casting is the whole point. You are actually forced to weight the tactical value of buffs vs other spells rather than to see buffs as free power. Look at the Owlcat Pathfinder games and players begging for Bubbles buff to be integrated to the games. Buffing has become a bunch of checkboxes, there is zero tactical consideration behind them. There's no "should I cast mage armor or grease?", only that you HAVE to cast mage armor and any leftover lvl 1 spell slots can be used for grease.

In the end what's the point of buffs existing? Since the only way Owlcat could challenge players stacked with buffs is to inflate the stats of the enemies. Buffs in earlier D&D editions exist only to drain resources from spellcasters and make them weaker.

I believe imposing a limit is sufficient. Make the buffs piddly and prone to just vanishing if the caster takes damage and I have very little incentive to use them. Josh Sawyer fell into a similar trap in the PoEs, where you have all those short buffs that can only be cast in combat that last a few seconds - I would much rather cast something that debuffs or damages an enemy and just rely on consumables and resting bonuses for buffs.

 

[Lacrymas]

Does Battle Chasers feature limited spell slots? I don't think it would be viable to keep wasting spell slots on a buff in a Vancian system.

What? No, it features the standard jRPG solution (your solution) of limited duration:

The latter solution (here I am refering to your solution of duration limiting) isn't exactly novel - it's very common in jRPGs and often lead to buffs being either not worth spending the turn on or ridicoulously OP to compensate for the low duration - and regardless of both, annoying to use because you have to recast them all the time. I'm playing Battle Chasers right now and it really highlights the latter problem (the latter problem = low duration buffs being annoying) because especially tanks are very reliant on low duration buffs so Red Monika's turns end up being just cycling through evasion buffs and taunts whereas Calibretto and Garrison can get much more creative with their turns.

Yes, I know, I'm asking whether it features both. From your answer, I'd say it doesn't, so it's not 100% like my solution because my system has Vancian casting.

 

[Grunker]

Does Battle Chasers feature limited spell slots? I don't think it would be viable to keep wasting spell slots on a buff in a Vancian system.

What? No, it features the standard jRPG solution (your solution) of limited duration:

The latter solution (here I am refering to your solution of duration limiting) isn't exactly novel - it's very common in jRPGs and often lead to buffs being either not worth spending the turn on or ridicoulously OP to compensate for the low duration - and regardless of both, annoying to use because you have to recast them all the time. I'm playing Battle Chasers right now and it really highlights the latter problem (the latter problem = low duration buffs being annoying) because especially tanks are very reliant on low duration buffs so Red Monika's turns end up being just cycling through evasion buffs and taunts whereas Calibretto and Garrison can get much more creative with their turns.

Yes, I know, I'm asking whether it features both. From your answer, I'd say it doesn't, so it's not 100% like my solution because my system has Vancian casting.

Ah, I see

 

[Stoned Ape]

Why not just only allow a limited number of buffs having a positive effect on a target at the same time? Call it magical interference or something. Once you exceed the value you start getting debuffed/take damage/get negative status effect. Higher powerd buffs could cause more interference if they are stronger, or have a similar effect to a lower level buff but cause less interference.

It could work a bit like the overheat threshold in BattleTech, the worse you exceed it the greater the negative effects.