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Some questions from a storyfag who doesn't agree with other storyfags

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Retinue, Jan 6, 2012.

  1. Retinue Novice

    Retinue
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    Note: I apologize if I misused the term wrong. I didn't do any search. Just read a couple of topics. I've only encountered two terms I didn't understand thus far. C&C and Storyfag. Since the topics I read were writing related, I assume storyfag are about gamers who obscenely play games for their story sometimes even opting out of appreciating a game for their gameplay.

    Being a writer in a software industry aside (as that has been discussed), some things I don't understand are:

    1. How come even for an elitist fanbase people tend to flock towards more mainstream (in a hardcore sense) games?

    I've even read one who praised Aeris' death and KOTOR's revelation about Revan. This is not to say their tastes are wrong and true enough in any popular forum there's a level of disparity leaning towards popular hardcore games. (Anything from Fallout 2 below probably counts) but one thing I found most interesting about games with their story is that it seems if you're not in a game centric forum, people rarely discuss much less impart the story's beauty at all.

    Isn't it weird? The games' lore is often what drives the interest for Storyfag who prefer CRPGs or CRPG-lite but if you want to hear about the intricacies of theories and details for why a story is great, it doesn't transfer at all. It's as if even the anonymous internet is sensitive towards imparting their own theories about a set of rarely spoken of games unless it is a plot that everyone knows already. Movie forums have the same problem but it is possible to go to something like IMDB, find the movie, and discover intricacies of what a movie was all about. Even in game centric forums like Gamefaqs, there's a constant struggle to keep Story Faqs stickied and very few people talk about them.

    2. It's human nature to let the hate flow more than the love, but how come even for an elitist board people don't defend their positions in details.

    I read a Witcher thread where some people were claiming that the Witcher's combat system is boring and while it's a gameplay based thread, as a storyfag, it baffles me why people who like stories in their game rarely defend the fact that "in a realistic game world sense" boring automatic QTE fights are more in line with how sword fights work than intricate 1-6 men strategic battles.

    All the defenders could say was that at least the story had more gray morals. When in truth, the longest poster, who recommended the Full Combat Rebalance mod got it right: You should try it and even on the easiest setting the Witcher has a more beautiful combat system that is far more strategic and immersive to the story (even if you're a bad gamer like me) than the wreck that is all other games. Even in highly praised niche games from all criterias, it seems once the gameplay becomes interactive and the create a character screen becomes more PnP then storyfags become less storyfags and more "generalplotpraisingfags".

    It's so rare to really hear from the opinion of someone who's truly an interactive immersive story desiring fan in any rpg forums. It's rare for movies but it's even rarer for a gaming community that claims to love stories.This in turn makes it less likely for people to discuss about a game's story at all. Horror fans seem to be the exception but even that is reserved for popular niche games like Silent Hill and Resident Evil. Even things like Clock Tower rarely get mentioned.

    3. Why do people claim it's easier/more desiring to make better stories for adventure games?

    I think it's in a writing related thread that someone said just look at Legacy of Kain.

    Well...if this were a movie, Legacy of Kain would be the Harry Potter compared to true jewels like the plot of the original Silent Hill, 1st saga of Clock Tower, Fear Effect and even Akuji the Heartless if we're talking action adventure games with a pseudo horror theme beats Legacy of Kain plot-wise. (Of course as a game, it sucks in comparison)

    It just seems like once again, storyfags are not storyfags but...well I'm not sure what they are called in the context of movies but they come off like Matrixfags. People who appreciate the story of a popular movie with pseudo-depth that everyone also praises in the industry but would hold a higher standard to a lesser known but better presented/alluded movie claiming the lack of pandering to pop icons as being what makes the story worse than <insert popular movie>

    4. Speaking of this, why do many elitist who love stories claim things like Planescape Torment or insert almost any game mentioned here beyond one thread as having good stories?

    At best, they have more original stories (though still not necessarily original). But are they good? They're typical CRPG muck. You're an all powerful being. One way or another despite your choices you're an all powerful being. If you're not an all powerful being at the beginning then by some fantasy cliche (despite all your choices) you're going to be an all powerful being. You're not going to be wiser. Your baby is just an icon. Your guns are hierarchily built and the only sandbox sense you have is that some areas are suicide spots without you're knowing but in the end, you're all going to become characters that could fit any of the level 1 classes in Diablo 2. (Not just in gameplay domination but plot sense)

    It's one thing if the above is a rare opinion but it's not. It's a non-existant one. Some critics may have problems with games like Torment but they never go full storyfag. It's like a board of elitists fully pandering to the elitist crowds. Yes there are disagreements but I've yet to read a true storyfag disagreement in ANY of the major gaming forums I've chanced upon and I don't know the little known forums at all.

    5. Why do storyfags not have the equivalent of modding communities?

    I'm guilty of this too but considering the capabilities many indy groups are able to produce, it's strange that when a small project comes up, writers are still one of the harder finds for a project maker. Maybe I just don't know the IMSDb of videogames but it just seems outside of Wesnoth, many mods still stick to the bread and butter of games.

    Only in Wesnoth have I seen a mod subset where there's fantasy, seafaring, sci-fi, alternate fantasy, genre shift all in one place. Yes, it's easier to make mods for a game with less graphics and this is not to say all those stories are quality but wouldn't it be in the interest of the greater storyfag community to debunk this myth that games are no longer in their infancy but that the gaming community itself and their expectations are what makes it more profitable to make infant games even for the hardcore niche? But no...storyfags are part of the problem. It's not just the silent storyfags. Those, like me, are worthless. I can't even make a primitive game. It's the attitude of the vocal minority of storyfags that makes me scratch my head.

    Aside from the other alternate names I wrote above, storyfags seem also guilty of:

    1. Entertainmentfag - Often praising games of fantasy. As much as entertainment is cool, the interactive element of games (even visual novels) combined with the ramification of not just actions within a game but actions that impact your impression of the story are what makes for the best games. This doesn't mean such games are immediate 10/10 or above 7/10 immediately. It just means that maybe they can fit a 1/10 under a story category. Yet there's two extremes. If a story actually scratches that in a game like say Portal, even critics who love their stories appear to hail it not just put it int the context of a 3/10 or a 4/10.

    2. GTAfag - Yes, it's more gameplay based but like I said above, this is how some storyfags come off. If a game appears to have a thievery system or a stat that opens up dialogue choices, it gets praised for it's story. Yet all these mechanics are simply replacing mindless killing with mindless bribing, stealing, coaxing, conning. The Fallout stat system was original, unique and fun and it wrapped it all in one whole package and the post-apocalyptic setting is Geekfest at it best but that doesn't mean that it somehow made for a richer plot or richer world. It's still rags to riches and it's worse than the common rag to riches of generic JRPGs plot-wise primarily because you're sold a character that isn't supposed to be special at the beginning and then ends up special where as JRPGs often do the reverse which is still bad but in a plot sense the characters at least are born with a special destiny not sandbox gropers.

    3. StaticScreenFags - Yes FVA is overrated. Even graphics of today are overrated. They're not clear cut prettier and they take more power from your PC which means in-between appreciating the story, you have to tinker with the video settings first but it seems the "graphic whore" storyfag is a rarity if not a total cryptomythology too. Again, being a CRPG-centric community, it can't be helped but it's so hard to find ONE individual forum poster who would say... JRPGs have a better much streamlined buy system while CRPGs have a richer merchant system.

    No, "graphic worse" storyfags end up needing to settle for something like the Saga series or the Harvest Moon series to see attempts at merging a Visual Novel interface with a CRPG interface with a JRPG interface overlayed on top of a relationship based interface combined with a Sim interface in order to have an immersive interactive story in their rpgs. In an ideal world, if I don't like it I should make it, but it still irks me that something like Fallout's interface maybe clunky but I haven't heard any vocal storyfag remark on this. It's often gameplayfags that talk about this as if again, we're not just outcasts, we're a total myth.

    Many of the above can apply to many subset of the gaming community though. It's why I emphasize existence. If there's only a minority with these opinions that I can read from time to time it wouldn't bother me so much. Yet to insist: It's nearly non-existant from the vocal members. There will always be silence across the internet but you would think a nickname like storyfag would at least imply a very extreme subset of story based gamers who are truly in it for the stories. Not just the plots or the general text. A subset of gamers that are like a different branch of the lorefags who tinker more with how each strands of hair or each piece of derp may or may not truly be derp and what could have been done to create a more exciting story but I simply haven't seen it. Even at best, the great writers appear to focus on one great aspect of the game but it's the gameplay modders who create such story immersive mods like Full Combat Rebalance, Final Fantasy Tactics 1.3, Some BG mods, the Real Weapon Fallout mod (of which I haven't tried), The Wesnoth mods, etc. etc.
     
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  2. Raghar Arcane

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    Jaesun explain him the meaning of the word fag.
    It seems someone didn't play that infamous BG2 mod.
     
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  3. curry Arcane

    curry
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    Great, a thread about fags by a newfag.

    :hmmm:
     
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  4. Roguey Codex Staff Sawyerite

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    I'm going to do a drive-by here, because I'll be damned if I care enough to respond to all of that.

    Are you saying you are one? In which case fuck you, fuck you to death.

    On the Codex? They were likely joking.

    ....what?

    .......what?

    I think you missed the point of Torment entirely. It's praised for the themes it examines and somewhat-philosophical subjects it brings up. I don't even like Torment that much but I'd hardly call it a typical RPG power fantasy. Bioware makes those.
     
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  5. Gord Arcane

    Gord
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    You want to understand this place?
    Watch and learn.
     
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  6. felipepepe Prestigious Gentleman Codex's Heretic Patron

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    Okay, first if you are a writer in the game industry, you just showed why we can't have nice things. Half of what you posted is badly articulated and almost unreadable.

    Second, we would love to discuss game stories more, but most of them are shit nowadays. Games like the indie "To the Moon" can generate walls of text about the story, but how many of those games are there? Can I really discuss Skyrim's "dragonborn kills dragons" story? As one poster said, Deus Ex: HR whole plot, for instance, can be explained by the word "argumentations". At most we discuss specific quests and C&C (choices and consequences) we found interesting, like the amazing Vault 11 in Fallout: NV, but those are exceptions in games filled with "go there, kill those and bring me this" quests.

    Third, there ARE mods dedicated to story and even to add characters. They just reach a smaller audience, much like fanfics. There are even whole communities dedicated to creating playable stories using RPG Maker.

    I would continue debating, but I honestly can't say I understood the rest you wrote well enough to argue.
     
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  7. Elwro Arcane

    Elwro
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    Few RPGs have a good story from start to finish. If people praise them "for the story", it's usually because some quests / subplots are interesting or just well-developed. The Caladon diplomacy quest in Arcanum, the detective-related stuff in The Witcher, the Sensate-related stuff in Planescape (this game is full of interesting, detailed and well presented stories)...
     
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  8. felipepepe Prestigious Gentleman Codex's Heretic Patron

    felipepepe
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    Exactly. Arcanum's main quest is dull, many players never even finish it. But what makes the game a great experience for any storyfag are the side quests and unique moments. We had many threads here dedicated just to the gnomish conspiracy, for instance. IIRC we had even one just about that NPC in PS:T that wants you to kill him. He has just a common sprite and his whole script must be no longer than a page, but still is more memmorable than the main character in most recent games.
     
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  9. Tigranes Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    But hey, you'll find people on Bioboards or Bethboards going on and on and on about why Revan did what and how, whether Stormcloaks are evil, etc., or even elsewhere, people pulling apart Final Fantasy for hidden (i.e. NOT ACTUALLY THERE) significance in the story. Hell, IRL I know a guy who gets totally immersed in FO3 and actually falls in love with the story, even though at the same time, he can recognise how fucked up the ending is, at least. I don't think the landscape is as fallow as suggested.

    For myself, I like talking about stories in games and I really like good stories, to the point I can forgive many flaws. But as felipepepe says these days stories are utterly shit. To elaborate, not only are they boring or nonsensical or whatever, they're also very narrow in vision and scope and don't leave a lot more to talk about. DX:HR basically covers the first two paragraphs of what a university student might write about transhumanism and cybernetics; Skyrim's Thalmor/Stormcloaks/Empire/dragonborn stuff went absolutely nowhere, and more importantly, every story element and idea that was generated was exhausted during the course of the game. This is tied to, though not entirely caused by, changes in design like shorter games, making sure everyone can be the King of everything and see all the content in one go, making sure all quests have happy endings that resolve everything, etc. Nowadays I try to talk about a game's story and I find I have nothing to say.

    As for 4 and some other bits of your points, you're conflating your own strong opinions about good story with more general arguments about the state of affairs, so really there's nothing to be said. You can't mix "why do storyfags not talk about story" with "why do these storyfags think these games rock, they're wrong and they don't rock" and get any productive discussion going.
     
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  10. laclongquan Arcane

    laclongquan
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    I smell a troll. This fucker sounds too much like a trollbait we had recently at Watch refugee?

    Yo, bitch, Retinue! Are you sure you never cuddle?
     
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  11. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    RPG Wokedex Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Kingmaker
     
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  12. Retinue Novice

    Retinue
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    Oh god... nevermind. Forget I ever posted in here. I'm already facepalming so hard.

    The forum initially didn't appear as bad from when I was lurking on some threads but come on...first post requesting an explanation about fags? As someone showed newfag isn't exactly a new definition. Fag is a pretty much clear cut word. The word story in storyfag is what creates the confusion.

    I mean...wow...just wow... people accusing of trollbait, people quoting 1 post (as if posts could magically turn into anything but a 1 if you're not a troll or the sidebar somehow hides it), people not willing to answer questions but then posting and interpreting words badly at that (like how in the world could anyone interpret what I said as my being a writer? WTF?)

    As for those who at least tried to answer legitimately, I don't mean to ignore you but many of the points you bring up become more specific to games and subquests. I admit the lack of such threads across gaming forums I've encountered are why I made this thread but going to the specifics of those quests in this particular thread are just irrelevant especially when all it's meant to say is that games have no good stories nowadays and then you bring up CRPG/CRPG-like games alone.

    The one post that had anything to do with what I wrote was the comment about Planescape Torment's theme.

    Well yes, it's not a typical RPG power fantasy but that doesn't make it not a Rpg power fantasy. It's just a more original RPG power fantasy but all the themes still stem from the same RPG power fantasy premise. It's only in the initial twist on the amnesiac hero that the world flourishes but still this is just a red herring. I didn't really bring up RPG power fantasies. Games often hosts powerful characters, that much isn't new. The CRPG take is the one that's cliche in that you spend all these time worrying and min-maxing in the beginning with the illusion that you are in a rich world only to become a powerful being plot wise unless you self-nerf and find a poorer and weaker class.

    Also people bringing up RPG maker type games are IMO overrating the games. There are lots of cool RPG maker games but the ones I've encountered don't encompass the full spectrum. In terms of graphics (from an immersion standpoint), I know of only one RPG maker game that impressed me because it mimicked Saga Frontier 2's watercolor style. I can't remember the name but that had an awesome beginning but the still awkward way of navigating the environments turned me off. In contrast Wesnoth had 2 major graphical overhaul. One is sci-fi (actually two mods but based on the same graphics set and I mean truly sci-fi not sci-fantasy like Arcanum/Fallout or Star Ocean) and the other is Arabian fantasy involving magic carpets and such. In terms of plot, the most often found RPG maker games I've seen in the past (I didn't really look that hard) are still overall Fantasy if not Pseudo-Oriental Fantasy games in the veins of the Ninjas in FF. In Wesnoth, even same universe mods involve themes of Post-Apocalyptic events, Planescape like torments (albeit without the reverse Nameless one pull over) and Civilization downfalls. All these while wrapped in an easier to find and install modding database.They aren't all 10/10 and many of the mods do fall short in length but in terms of depth if you're into a story, even a basic glance over all the options show much more varied introductions than many of the mods found in other games and the endings remain a huge pay-off plot wise where as many of the oft discussed games as some of you allude to, fall within the spectrum of liking a sub-quest or talking about a certain lore.
     
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  13. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    RPG Wokedex Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Its not your post count that I was drawing attention to.
     
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  14. curry Arcane

    curry
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    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Clockwork Knight Arcane

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    ...It reads like one of Prosper's rants, to be honest. I'm not even sure what you're complaining about.
     
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  16. Excidium P. banal

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    Holy shit it's MissingNo.
     
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  17. laclongquan Arcane

    laclongquan
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    It's not your join date I was referring to, either.

    It's your incoherent wall of texts. It's so taking me back.

    DO. YOU. EVER. BACK. DOWN?
     
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  18. Cowboy Moment Arcane

    Cowboy Moment
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    I like the OP. Sure, he's barely comprehensible in his rant, but you can feel the rage seethe underneath the surface. I can already anticipate how his opinions will improve any Torment thread in the future.
     
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  19. Clockwork Knight Arcane

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    Please don't run away, Excidium! I'll give you 128 of the 6th item in your bag~
     
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  20. Gragt Arcane Patron

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    [​IMG]
     
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  21. Retinue Novice

    Retinue
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    Cliff notes version:

    *Being a writer in a software industry aside (as that has been discussed) - Does not need to be discussed because there's a thread made and talked of by others already

    *people rarely discuss much less impart the story's beauty at all. - Read the replies by the non-troublemakers/idiots/wannabe trolls

    *The games' lore is often what drives the interest for Storyfag who prefer CRPGs or CRPG-lite but if you want to hear about the intricacies of theories and details for why a story is great, it doesn't transfer at all. - Again see the replies. I guess if there's any wording I would clarify it's that quests can be lores depending on how people discuss them. I don't like looking down on forum readers though but like I said, board really disappointed me.

    I read a Witcher thread where some people were claiming that the Witcher's combat system is boring and while it's a gameplay based thread, as a storyfag, it baffles me why people who like stories in their game rarely defend the fact that "in a realistic game world sense" boring automatic QTE fights are more in line with how sword fights work than intricate 1-6 men strategic battles. - Can't believe a forum that constantly have posters remembering and making up new words like storyfags can't understand this but I went through my browser history and here's the thread link: (Didn't really think I would need to refer to this as it's just an example of how Codex elitists storyfags appear to not talk about story at all) http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/lets-talk-about-the-witcher.57346/

    3. Why do people claim it's easier/more desiring to make better stories for adventure games? - Didn't check if it's the right link with that post but again, Codex have multiple threads about this anyway. It is also an example. I paraphrased the adventure part because I thought posters here would better empathize with other stuff other posters mention. Apparently not: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ve-we-writing-proper-aka-bioware-sucks.65596/

    Someone also brought up Legacy of Kain in that same post citing it's writing quality.

    4. Speaking of this, why do many elitist who love stories claim things like Planescape Torment or insert almost any game mentioned here beyond one thread as having good stories? - See reply. Also Planescape Torment and Fallout are stepchilds of Rpg forums. I have nothing against them specifically but it's much easier to point them out as well as their flaws as people universally herald their stories/themes/etc even though the story ramifications remain just as hollow as most sandbox rpg.

    That's said. I don't mean to be rude as I'm the "newfag" and you guys are the old fags but if you can't understand a clear thread like this then I recommend just shutting up and going away or try asking politely.

    I'm not here to cuddle anyone. I made a thread. Respond to what's written and put up or shut up.

    I don't need this to be bumped just so more of you can infest this thread. I don't need to know that any of you is unsure of what you're complaining about if you're not willing to hold up your end and be clear about what you're not understanding. (I'm only making this reply so I can request for the trolls to GTFO of this thread without coming off like a troll myself.)

    If you're not interested in the heart of the thread, make your thread poking fun at this thread. I don't need your pointless bumps that just makes it harder to scroll through pages just to read something related to the thread. I don't need your image posts that bring nothing of any value except to make it clearer that the poster is a dickwad who's into captions. I don't need repeated posts about my incoherent wall of texts because I can guarantee you it may be incoherent but at least it's not stupid like wasting your time commenting on how something is a wall of text. I don't even want anyone of you bothering to type how you didn't read this reply or whatever. You have better things to do in life and I have a higher standard of what it means to feel pwned. Standards where images and accusations of wall of texts and tl;drs fall way way below the spectrum of making me butthurt. I only want to discuss a thread and if you're not willing or capable of doing that again, kindly GTFO or make another thread or waste a pm or rant about it elsewhere. Trolling in this thread won't get you laid, won't make you appear smarter, won't make you more handsome, won't get you a job nor would it increase the HD size of your storage devices where you keep your images for occasions such as this.
     
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  22. Giauz Ragnacock Scholar

    Giauz Ragnacock
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    Well... what exactly are you asking, Retinue? As a person who also has trouble getting to the point, I ask you to, please, be more concise. You're stuck between survey questions, a rant (a really, really, REALLY LONG rant), and stating the obvious about CRPGs being min-maxing power fantasies. Could you just start with maybe one briefly explained question that you would like to hear answers to?

    PS. Stay on-board. Sometimes the cursing and trolling can get bad but overall this place is awesome for talk about RPGs of the electronic medium.
     
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  23. Skittles He ruins the fun.

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    Retinue: You need to put some more effort into being coherent if you want better responses.

    I think you're taking the term storyfag as it's used around here too seriously. You're looking for the sort of person for whom the story is the point of the game, whereas, as far as there is any consensus, 'storyfag' around here denotes somebody whose appreciation of the story in a game serves to help them forgive it its flaws as a game.

    You're right, there's little discussion of the computer game as a story telling medium here. It seems that there should be, as we have our share of 'storyfags' and we talk about cRPGs, a genre based on PnP games themselves born of wargaming and interactive, collaborative storytelling. Why isn't there more appreciation of the actual stories?

    I reckon it comes down to the fact that cRPGs are meant to be enjoyed in the interaction with the game, including its story, rather than appreciated solely for the story. News at eleven. A shitty story that a cRPG lets you interact with and influence is what we look for, what the storyfags of this board would probably point to. A great story with no interaction has no place in videogames. RPGs and interactive novels are not the same thing. At all.

    So we have cRPG fans who are derided as/self-identify as storyfags, because they enjoy exploring the interaction between the cRPG and its story. They're generally not going to talk about interactive novels. They're not going to perform deep analysis of the story of a cRPG, because most of them are utter juvenile shit. They're not generally going to form massive modding communities, because the cRPG is not a story-telling medium, it's a medium for a game of which the story is a part.

    The story is a game in RPGs and we talk about it as a game, not as a story, except in passing.
     
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  24. RK47 collides like two planets pulled by gravity Patron

    RK47
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Messages:
    28,329
    Location:
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    Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
    Post some of your articles.
    Don't hide it.
    Let us know you.
    You already read us.
     
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  25. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    87,736
    RPG Wokedex Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    For the record, I've seen pretty good video game story discussions on forums which are highbrowish but non-Codexian in nature, such as the Something Awful forums. Check out some of their DX:HR or Alpha Protocol threads, for instance.
     
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