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Interview Someone Wants to Pick Warren Spector's Brain

commie

The Last Marxist
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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
Sceptic said:
Lyric Suite said:
Point taken. And that's a pretty impressive track record there. I wonder if the reason why he hasn't produced anything of note since Duex Ex has something to do with the lack of talented developers and increased corporate control more then any personal decline on his part.
It could be this, or it could be that producers have less power than they used to, what with the hierarchy turning more and more towards the corporate side, so all big design decisions are handled by the suits and the producer has to live with it. Or... it could simply be that his skills have declined/adapted to the industry standards (redundancy, I know). Who knows.

Just watch the credits on any modern so called AAA title and you'll see that at least half, if not more of the names are marketers, producers, assistant producers, heads of blah etc. There's more of these fuckers than actual people that work on a game!

Games in the last decade are really just 'products' for consumption, and yes, they've always been made to made money even in ye olde days, the difference is that in days of old many games were created to be enjoyed as well, whereas the priority today is just to create a product that will appeal to the biggest demographic possible first, with the game itself being secondary.
 

commie

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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
ghostdog said:
spekkio said:
You abandoned your TWO LPs so your opinion is invalid.

:(

You did what now? Fuck me for such a thing I will spit on your Planescape UI hi-res mod that I've been using! Yes, you heard me correctly: I am currently loading up PS: T and as soon as it loads I will SPIT on the monitor to show my contempt for your lack of staying power!

Oh and Thief 1/2 and 3 > DX.
 

ghostdog

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AnalogKid said:
PorkaMorka said:
More liek guesses and consequences, am I rite? :smug:
This.

Imagine a dialog tree that's more of a table, with each option clearly indicating all the resulting outcomes. No-one would ever feel the need to re-load, because they could actually make INFORMED choices, not guesses. It doesn't sound particularly fun or realistic, but the current trend of giving the player even LESS information about what he's about to say and how the dialog partner might respond just makes this all the more rage-worthy.

Combat makes outcomes uncertain by randomization, with player choices influencing statistical averages, but a really great swordsman might still critically miss, or whatever. So the player has informed input that isn't completely deterministic.

At its best, conversation outcomes are uncertain due to game-theory presence of another "player". Without any info to help play the "game", though, it's just blind luck and really annoying. Solutions would be to either create conversations without blind-guess uncertain outcomes (for example, when asking for information about stuff, there's not much uncertainty or need to reload), or actually provide MORE INFORMATION to the player. Maybe have smooth-talker skills give meta-game info to the player (likely to piss guard off)...(high chance of bargaining up reward)...that kind of thing.

Basically, make conversations an actual GAME, complete with INFORMED player input. Or else keep it just-the-facts ma'am, and don't have game rewards be dependent on it.

Obviously you have no grasp of what choices and consequences should mean. A successful use of C&C shouldn't make the player reload. The choice you make now will be made based on the info you have up till now. Whether the info has been obtained by a reliable source should be taken into consideration since you may have been deceived. You make your choice and then LATER you'll face the consequences.

If you've sided with faction A, then you'll have the benefit of its protection and you can access its supplies. But faction B wont like that. Some people might be hostile or deceptive because of your choice.

If you decided to save the alleged witch from the inquisition, then you may get access to her charms and potions. But LATER, fanatics may burn and loot your home, you may be denied entrance to churches and healing. On the other hand if you side with the inquisition, the witch may curse you. A curse that will later decrease one of your stats. Or a demon may appear and kill one of your allies.

I'm not talking about a simple "they'll attack you for revenge" because combat almost always works for your benefit especially in RPGs, nor am I talking about an obvious wrong and an obvious right choice. I'm talking about delayed consequences (good and bad) so that you won't reload to get it "right".

A dialog tree that clearly indicates all the resulting outcomes is the most boring thing ever. A good game should surprise you in a logical but not completely obvious way.
 

AnalogKid

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ghostdog said:
I'm talking about delayed consequences...A good game should surprise you in a logical but not completely obvious way.
A key element of surprise is lack of repetition. Horror movies aren't surprising to me anymore because I've learned all the tension->false alert->relax->SURPRISE! tricks that are endlessly repeated. My point is that your post addresses the exceptions, not the norms. I have no problem with delayed consequences, and unexpected outcomes. But that can't be the NORM for dialogs, because they are by definition "guess and unforseable consequence". As spice, fine. As meal, no.

Your point about surprises being logical is identical to my point about informed player inputs. If a result (whether delayed or just unexpected) is "logical", then by definition a good game player could have predicted it and acted accordingly. In other words, there was enough information given to the player to make an INFORMED choice. If a result is completely unpredictable, then it is so obviously "guess and consequence" that I can't see how you'd argue otherwise (no doubt that's why you used the word logical to describe the surprise).

If you read my post, you'll see the part where I admit a full-knowledge situation wouldn't be particularly fun. I used it as an exaggerated example to illustrate the point that there's a HUGE difference between "damn, I should have thought of that when I made that choice back then!" and "WTF? I get a better reward for being snarky first, then professional than I do for being professional and then suave?"

Players must have information to make meaningful choices. Information can be incomplete, mis-understood, or downright inaccurate (purposely or accidentally), but it can't be absent without encouraging reload metagaming.
 

1eyedking

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spekkio said:
No. Thief 1-2 are great climatic games with a little bit of "art" thrown in.
Desu Ex is just great game.

:smug:

DX is great as an example of quality developing. But Thief is better as a game.
Thief fists Deus Ex in every orifice. It's so goddamn better it's not even funny.
 

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