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Vapourware Star Citizen - Only people with too much money can become StarCitizens! WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE?

Discussion in 'MMO(RP)G / Online Discussion' started by Morgoth, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. Duellist_D Savant Patron

    Duellist_D
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    Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech

    The X52 Pro has a thumbmouse on the Throttle (that is horribly oversensitive and only works good in 2160p), i suppose they will include something similiar in the Setup they will release together with Saitek.
    Might actually work decent to good.
     
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  2. Blaine Cis-Het Oppressor Patron

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    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    No, it would be terrible. I have a CH Products HOTAS with a Pro Throttle, and it too has a very good thumbstick. Aiming with the thumbstick while flying would be pure torture. It's okay for navigating menus, but isn't even precise at that.

    Aside from the console controller-like poor precision of a thumbstick (console shooters have aim assist for a reason), another issue is that maneuvering while also aiming completely independently would be quite a multitasking feat. A HOTAS user is working the pedals and toe brakes, the throttle and various throttle buttons, and the stick and various stick buttons, and occasional HATs. Precise aiming with a thumbstick on top of all that?

    My original point though is that if you can wave your mouse and both your ship and your guns follow the cursor accurately and precisely, why bother? I HAVE played games like that before, such as Hawken. Hawken is a mech shooter that came out a few years ago. It plays pretty much like any other first-person shooter, except you get an elaborate mech cockpit, and turning and jumping are artificially slowed and restricted. It's still a first-person shooter through-and-through, though.

    What you end up with is something lacking the total freedom of movement and aim of a pure arena first-person shooter, and also lacking the grit, intricacy, and complexity of a pure (or even casual) simulation. It's just crap.

    That Mechwarrior free-to-play shooter from a few years back that so many Mechwarrior fans were hyped for turned to shit, too. The developers made absolutely sure that the controls catered to mouse users, and even eventually added third-person mode, which is a huge advantage in terms of situational awareness. The game had a lot of other problems too, but the mouse-centric nature pleased neither simulationists nor pure shooter fans.
     
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  3. Country_Gravy Arcane Patron

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    Does anyone else read HOTAS as Hot Ass? Always makes me want to head back to the Butt Crowd thread.

    Anyway, carry on about this disaster in the making. This thread is very entertaining.
     
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  4. omega21 Arcane

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    I played Hawken too. I don't think it's possible to create a mech game that caters to the FPS crowd.
     
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  5. Blaine Cis-Het Oppressor Patron

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    Right, and for sizable development houses, there's not enough money to be made from the much smaller group of people who want an actual mech simulation.

    I was on board with Star Citizen almost from the very beginning. The turning point (or wake-up call) for me came when I got my hands on Arena Commander and became aware of the mouse-waving gimballing bullshit—not only that, but Roberts vociferously defended said mouse-waving bullshit and claimed that people simply didn't realize what they were talking about, that his sim was too deep and the skill ceiling too high for anyone to really "get it" yet. In addition, even back then, the project had become so huge and so many millions had been accumulated that I knew CIG would have an overwhelming incentive to cater to mouse users.

    (There were other factors too, such as the release of yet another capital ship for sale for $2,500 or some such insanity. It's important to note that the "main" crowdfunding campaign, which was always primarily on the Star Citizen website even though they also did a 30-day Kickstarter, never really ended. In the beginning I could tell myself that it was, after all, a crowdfunding campaign; and also that there's no reason for them to stop accepting pledges after some arbitrary date, and that more money would make the game bigger and better; but I should have realized much, much sooner that constantly cranking out new ship models in order to sell them ASAP, even going so far as to sell pledge ships for $250+ based on concept art, role, and title alone without even a barebones in-game model, was venturing into the realm of insanity.)

    Impotent claims that CIG would "look into controller agnosticity" have never been followed up on or even reiterated, at least not that I'm aware of. I stopped following Star Citizen many months ago, so perhaps I'm mistaken, but for the most part I consider these lame attempts to placate the ever-shrinking hard core of simulationists and stall until there's no way to hide that the game is 100% designed so that these incredibly over-designed, over-produced, complex starship models are just albatrosses that follow along with what is essentially a slowed-down first-person shooter in space flight and weapons model.

    If the dogfighting isn't correct, I don't give a shit about the rest of it.
     
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  6. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    RPG Wokedex Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    tl;dr Mouse-aimed gimballed turrets are Blaine's melee engagement
     
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  7. Ulminati Kamelåså! Patron

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    So there's a speed cap in Star Citizen? I'm sure DraQ approves :incline:
     
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  8. potatojohn Arcane

    potatojohn
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    But why is it damped in the beginning?
     
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  9. Whiran Magister

    Whiran
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    cause space magic
     
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  10. MadMaxHellfire Arcane

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    so in the end it was indeed totally wrong as i said? how quaint!
     
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  11. Perkel Arcane

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    I don't get why people don't get why there are speed limits in space games and just how easy is to set them actually in realistic fashion.

    I mean from game standpoint if you don't have set max speed limit there wouldn't be any dogfighting.
    From realism standpoint it is really easy to produce problem to which speed limit is an answer.

    For example:

    - due to lack of power to overcome inertia and turn ship quickly above certain speed any missile would get any ship regardless of its max speed (remember that missiles are always faster than ships due to their design). So creating speed limit would be simply way to counter such weapons and be sort of safe valve so you won't make mistake and go above that limit to be easily picked by missile. Nothing in the end will keep you back from turning on cruise mode...
    - due to limit of your radar you can't accelerate much as radar can't scan and provide you data quickly enough to make corrections needed to move away your ship from collision course with small rocks or even dust (remember that velocity has huge impact on damage being delt). You can have better speed than standard one (aka cruise mode) but ship needs to cut out middle men (aka pilot) and use several systems like long range scaners and few others that will limit your interaction with ship and possibly cut some system completely (like shields) for cruise flight time.

    I think maximum velocity achievable is not something i need to cover here because it is pretty much established fact that you can't increase speed forever. Comets don't even achieve 0.1c and they are torn apart by simply radiation from sun let alone things like collisions with dust or other stuff. Hitting even cloud of oxygen in nebulae at those speeds would tear ship apart like you would hit into wall.

    engine can't generate 100% of power from first second (unless it is all electric with no propellant). I think this is the reason.

    Basically their old system was patchwork till they have all systems in it. Thanks to feedback from dog fighting module they focused on parts where people said it sucked.

    In other news they wanted to remove clinical aspect of ship behavior and make it more rough so for examle when you press thrust ship wouldn't be able to accelerate in completely linear fashion down to microseconds. So due to some factors like errors in engine of your ship your acceleration will wobble a bit same as everything else like turning etc.


    ---------------------------------
    ---------------------------------

    Overall i wish they would go for more analog future.
    I loved how it was done in The Legend of Galactic Heroes and it was so awesomely described why it was like that.
    Gist of TLoGH was that due to increasing effectiveness of jamming. So due to technological war jamming became so succesfull that all forms of non analog combat became almost useless.

    So things like homing missiles, radars, remote weapons etc became useless. Even such thing as communication had to be delivered like in 19 century via messengers from ship to ship. So things like formations in space had to be made to not crash into each other and salvos were used to increase effectivness like in early black powder era.

    With such setting dogfights would be based around mostly skill without computer assists.
     
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  12. Ulminati Kamelåså! Patron

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    Because sometimes going 100% realism does not result in a game that's fun to pick up and play.
    The "solutions" by advocates of infinite speed spacefighters always boil down to some variant of "let the computer do the aiming" or "tracking missiles!" which gets really boring really quickly in a spacefighter game.

    But try telling that to the newtonian brigade.

    You're already piloting ftl spaceships that shoot each other with plasma bolts and lasers. (with sound in space!)
    If a speed limit is the only thing that shatters your immersion, I'll have whatever drugs you're taking.
     
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  13. potatojohn Arcane

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    I'm pretty sure all chemical engines get to full power immediately.

    "Spool up" is a feature of jet engines, appropriately enough.

    I-War had really fun combat, so it's no wonder that your lies find no traction.

    And we'll see how it goes in Rogue System.
     
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  14. Perkel Arcane

    Perkel
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    Only electric engines can do that.

    Even if you use rocket engine it takes time before rocket fuel will travel to burning chamber when you increase dosage to increase acceleration. It also takes time for burning proccess to occur and propel gasses out of burning chamber.
     
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  15. potatojohn Arcane

    potatojohn
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    Nope

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELgUNDeLmNw

    Look at 0:40.
     
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  16. dbx Arcane Patron

    dbx
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    Dude, you should stop talking about things you don't know.
    For starter in space flight your absolute speed doesn't matter, unless you are fighting against a "stationary" enemy (but even then, not that much)
    What really matter is your relative speed w.r.t. the missile (he is still bounded by the same laws of nature your ship is bound to, unless magic) and more importantly
    the thrust difference between your engine and the missile one (which
    doesn't change the faster you go) because that's what makes you and the missile change position relative to one another, and how much you change position
    relative to the missile frame of reference position doesn't depend on your actual "absolute" speed.
    What you refer to as "ability to overcome inertia" is an extremely relative thing that depends on which moving frame of reference you are using.

    Secondly, just by being in space you're moving blazingly fast anyway (you're always orbiting something), your ability (or inability) to avoid dust and micro-meteorites doesn't change much.
    If not only for the fact you are not capping your absolute speed, just your relative speed.

    Unless magic, which is what SC/ED universe seems to be made of.

    And that's the retarded thing about speed capping.
    Speed capping with respect to what?
     
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  17. Ulminati Kamelåså! Patron

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    I-war was frigates with crews to man your turrtes. Not spehss fighters.
     
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  18. Perkel Arcane

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    20ms is for shortest burn available. It doesn't have anything to do with how much time it takes from press of a button, release fuel to burn process and propelling. This also doesn't mean that fuel will burn instantaneously at same rate whole.
    Even electric engines aren't instant much less anything with any kind of fuel.

    It does actually because the faster you move the more power you need to change your course.

    In mentioned missile scenario i simply meant that missile will be able to catch to you easily and when you travel at high speed you won't be able to dodge it unlike combat speed where you ship doesn't have velocity and can easily turn and dodge it.
     
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  19. AN4RCHID Arcane

    AN4RCHID
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    I'm Ridin' with Biden I'm Ridin' with Biden
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  20. omega21 Arcane

    omega21
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  21. Jack Dandy Arcane

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    Fuckin' shameful is what this is
     
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  22. dbx Arcane Patron

    dbx
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    You do realize everything you've just said applies to the missile too? Moving faster os slower doesn't change the missile ability (or inability) to get to you.
    Only thing that matter is the thrust of both the missile and the ship, their masses and their relative speed with one another, and that's it.
     
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  23. Perkel Arcane

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    yes but missile constantly accelerates which means that the more laverage your have in changing your position in spherical plane being centered on missile the way better your chances of survival are.
    Only movement perpendicular toward missile course is effective.

    So the more stationary target is the more leverage it has to change its course compared to missle itself. If missle is fast enough that change of movement will be greater than change of direction of missile available (at every increasing speed).
    The faster ship is the less maneuverable it is in frame of reference of missile moving toward it.

    This is why at high speed it is harder to avoid missile and the slower your are in frame of reference of missile the faster you can change direction thus avoid misslle which won't be able to change direction so fast due to its velocity.

    Perfect space missile would be missile that would have both forward and backward thrust (thrusters to change direction) and missile speed would decrease closing in to target so it can have more leverage in therms of changing directions or missle that would be shaped like the sphere where its main thruster would be traveling in 360 degree around that sphere but still its mass to thrust proportion would need to be taken into account with possibility of slowing it down before impact itself.
     
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  24. dbx Arcane Patron

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    Everything you just wrote is about relative speed between ship and missile, NOT absolute speed (which would be non sensical in space)
     
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  25. Perkel Arcane

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