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Vapourware Star Citizen - Only people with too much money can become StarCitizens! WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE?

Discussion in 'MMO(RP)G / Online Discussion' started by Morgoth, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. Yaar Podshipnik Arcane Patron

    Yaar Podshipnik
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    Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Eh, I can tell you from my 14y+ of experience in EVE that it isn't instanced. The SOL nodes (box is just how computer people call computers) running solar systems are separate, but there's nothing stopping you from jumping in. Only instanced context is the new abbyssal stuff (some of it is nice PVE, some of it is bs).
    The "trick" of EVE being a space game, IMO, is not a trick, but a good design decission, taking into consideration limitations of tech. And while the systems are very empty (same as real solar systems), they are not fake. By that I mean you can go into any point of the solar system volume, which for some systems means 150+AU. Getting there is tricky, but once you're there, you can have a fight same as everywhere. I'm still sad about loosing my Astrahus (a small station) that was 60AU+ from the sun, and off plane, not aligned with anything :(

    Hard disagree that instances grind to a halt with couple hundred people. Last couple of battles of around 200-300 people I was in were completely smooth, on a non-reinforced nodes. A reinforced node (as beefy server as they have, switched to deal with a single solar system) can handle, AFAIK, ~600 people in battle without going into Time Dilation.
    According to this press release the latest big battle had 6.5k players concurrent (i.e. shooting at each other at same time), with 8.8k players taking part in the battle in total. According to their tech stream it was Time Dilated, it was bit laggy, but general consensus was it was playable (though not enjoyable unless you're in command).

    The biggest battle I was in personally was 1.6k, waaay back, and I think before TiDi. Laggy as hell, but you could play, thanks to EVE not being a twitch game.

    So if you call seeing 1k+ players blasting each other at same time "an illusion" of massivness, then EVE is a bloody Houdini of it.

    (side note: EVE is far from perfect, and can be totaly sucky sometimes (e.g. the failure of CCP to deliver content in Pochven), but it's a great place to find cool and interesting people, and have some fun. Best corps I've been have culture quite similar to Codex)
     
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  2. TemplarGR Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Bethestard

    TemplarGR
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    Will this be released in this decade?
     
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  3. Perkel Arcane

    Perkel
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    Yes. That is the whole point of it.

    Not only you will be able to see people but also do everything what you can do as if you would be in same sever. So if you shoot someone on other server that bullet will travel to other server and hit that guy. It is not just instancing what some people think.

    Speaking of performance. I just logged in to check 3.12 patch and i got fresh new server without much people. Notice that i get 60+ fps and only half of my GPU is used. Basically rest of FPS is hold by server calculations that prevents my FPS going higher. Usually on stations i get around 30ish maybe 40ish.

    [​IMG]

    Doesn't it work like Elite where everything is instanced ? Meaning that yes you can travel anywhere you want but when you arrive somewhere effectively "level" is loaded and you are in that box. So for example you can't see someone ship when you travel in supercruise only their plumes.

    SC is different because it goes 1:1 meaning what you see is what you get. So if you go in quantum travel someone in theory can fire a rocket that will cross your path and shoot you down as both rocket and you are actually things that travel rather than fake "traveling mode" where you are just a point.
     
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  4. gurugeorge Magister

    gurugeorge
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    I bow to your 14 years, I only have about 3, plus a few later dips here and there.

    I know I'm playing a bit fast and loose with the term "instance," but you can join instances in other MMOs too - say if you're part of the team you can join the team in the instance. The only difference with EVE is that you don't have to be part of a team, and you can barge in whether you're friendly or unfriendly :) Or to put it another way, it's the same mechanism at work whether you call it an "instance" or a "virtual world" or whatever - the server opens up discrete virtual spaces as needed and players can notionally move between them according to certain rules. And a WoW continent, for example, is the equivalent of somewhere like Jita.

    The point is just that I think people hear the hype about EVE and imagine it must have some kind of incredible super-secret patented technology that allows everyone to be in the same virtual space together, but really it's just like any other MMO; in fact it's more complicated to do a mediaeval fantasy MMO or a superhero MMO because you have to keep track of more data. (Think about how City of Heroes had full 3-d movement under moment-to-moment player control - no submarine model to make things easier there :) And to cap it all, everyone had a totally unique look that the server had to keep track of as well. Now that's a software engineering feat to marvel at.) EVE's uniqueness is that it's a long-standing PvP game to its core, and the most successful example of it - that's the thing to marvel at about EVE.

    I'm glad to hear they've made big battles smoother. When I left they were just introducing Time Dilation.
     
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  5. Yaar Podshipnik Arcane Patron

    Yaar Podshipnik
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    Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    That's not how EVE works. If you go to system I-8DOG (actual system name), then you can see everyone else who's in that system. There are no multiple instances of any systems. When people are warping, you can see them wheeze past you, even on the slowest warp (and can potentially damage them, though it's not easy). And as I said before, current record for people in system and actively shooting at each other is ~6.5k.

    In terms of shooting, projectiles and missiles are simulated (to an extent, it's not proper physics simulation), though there's some RNG involved as to what happens when you hit. There's a formula for turret tracking vs. angular velocity, and missiles have their own mechanics that involves flight time and explosion radius. So yes, in EVE ships, and rockets/missiles (but not bullets) are "things", to the same extent you described SC working. There were some old technical blog posts about their physics system called Dogma, unfortunately can't find anything now. CCP was quite transparent on how it works and it's limitations (1s ticks, etc.)

    In theory, you can do the same thing in EVE to a person in warp, using AOE weapons (you can't target people in warp, and autotargetting missiles will not have time to lock). If you are in their path, and they will be on your grid during the same 1Hz server tick, and your weapon would apply damage in that tick, they will get damaged. In practice this is almost impossible to pull off.
     
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  6. Perkel Arcane

    Perkel
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    So checking 3.12.

    They ramped up amount of pay for each mission. Even with shitty small spaceship you can get 10k-20k missions now. They also increased diversity of those missions. For bounty hunting they also introduced grading system so if you start they will give you some test mission and improve your grade without it you can't do harder missions.

    Beacons also seems to be multiplayer. MEaning that one beacon can be taken by few people. I took one and there was other 2 players who joined small fight with few enemies.
     
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  7. Daud Literate

    Daud
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    Don't push it
     
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  8. Myobi Scholar

    Myobi
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    Oh, hang on then... I'm guilty on that, wasn't aware about it, but if players can indeed interact with each other like that, then yes, even with a player limit of 50, I see no reason not to consider it an MMO.
     
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  9. Perkel Arcane

    Perkel
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    The 50 people limit is only for now due to one star system being on one server. Once they will implement server meshing you will have multiple/dozens or even 100s of servers running one system which previously was on one server. Once they do V2 of that in theory they can have unlimited amount of players without instancing until your rig explodes.

    I remember video of server meshing in practice from one of their citizencons. I think it was that one before last one. They showed people shooting each other which were on different servers and if someone wouldn't tell you about it, you wouldn't see difference.
     
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  10. Yaar Podshipnik Arcane Patron

    Yaar Podshipnik
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    TL;DR, Perkel I'll believe it where I see it working in a non-staged demo. Something like 50 dudes in London on one node, playing againts 50 dudes in NY (or Frankfurt/Amasterdam, sticking to the places that have good connectivity to each other). Because meshing sounds great, but I see tons and tons of issues that would need to be overcome to make this a reality (not saying not possible, but FREAKING HARD). Some of those doubts listed below.

    Long technical ramblings from a guy who is not a game developer, but seen some things in telcos, enterprise, and financial software settings follows:

    I don't think it will allow unlimited players, due to player interactions having to form a complete graph. Think about it - right now everyone is on a single server, so to apply actions taken by one player to the 49 other players you just have to do some operations in local memory (that's not trivial as every player needs to get updates of all the actions taken by players that can affect them ("are on grid" in eve terms).
    If for every simulation tick, you need to send an update from each of those 50 players to all others, you already need to send 1225 update messages (and those are likely non-trivial). If you have two mesh servers, you will need to send all the updates from one server, to another, which means network latency, serialization latency, I/O latency, etc. (each can be mitigated to some degree, but not eliminated). Two nodes of 50 players each means 4950 messages.
    So this thing explodes quite quickly, and you don't have infinite time to process it - EVE can get away with physics ticking at 1Hz, but for a twitch based game that would be unacceptable (imagine all the bullets you just shot in a gun get processed only one time every second). If you want to run your physics at 30fps (that's not the same as doing graphics at 30fps, though it would probably be jarring if you just went and doubled the frames), you have ~33ms to process a frame. That's not a small amount of time, but the more people you have, the less time you can dedicate to processing each one. Not to mention that you will need to somehow hide the difference in processing time of local node messages vs. remote nodes.
    Another limitation is your actual network topology - if your server is to be equidistant to all the other servers you're meshing with, you either need a fully connected network (which for 10 nodes means 8 network inerfaces for the mesh alone, with no redundancy, and you probably want to have one for management and one for provisioning, so 10 ports); or have a nice switch all those nodes connect to, adding more latency. This is quite hard. To give you some idea, here's a tech blog from EVE Online from 5 years ago: https://www.eveonline.com/article/tranquility-tech-3, describing the kind of hardware they use. Note that even in there the nodes are discrete blades, so to talk to each other they would need to go through the network, and given that they have only 2 ports, a switch must be involved.
     
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  11. Perkel Arcane

    Perkel
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  12. Myobi Scholar

    Myobi
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    Yeah, I'm aware...

    I'm not going to lie though, sounds pretty neat but wondering how it will work out with high latency players and shit.
     
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  13. Grokalibre Savant

    Grokalibre
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    It's all bullshit lol
     
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  14. AN4RCHID Arcane

    AN4RCHID
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    I'm Ridin' with Biden I'm Ridin' with Biden
    Switches add negligible latency. If they do have shards in different regions and have to route communication between datacenters around the world, that is where server-server latency could become a problem.

    I doubt they will ever achieve being able to see/shoot between servers. But as long as they can instance planetary systems to a dedicated server, they should be able to increase the player cap and provide big scale battles.
     
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  15. Yaar Podshipnik Arcane Patron

    Yaar Podshipnik
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    Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Switch latency is negligible for some uses, but for others is not. 1us might be quite a lot for some people, and completley irrelevant for others. I think that for a game that plans to do what SC is saying they plan to do, it needs to be taken into consideration.
     
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  16. Fishy Learned

    Fishy
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    Willl will will, could could could, should should should, wait until, just needs, once they... SC in a nutshell.

    [​IMG]

    And if you can't vote, just buy an Idris.
     
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  17. zapotec Learned

    zapotec
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    I wonder if actually finishing the game will be less profitable than maintaining the current status quo of eternal alpha.
     
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  18. Perkel Arcane

    Perkel
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    I don't see how. They made roughly 300mln in past 8 years that sounds like a lot but if they release game and it will be hit to sell 10mln poppies they would get 600mln - taxes and no one says they can't sell micro which will probably a lot more than that. Moreover they are burning pretty much everything they earned from crowfunding on developement according to their financial reports in UK.

    Also from what i heard about their plans toward selling game they plan to have model where each character is separate copy of game you need to buy. IT is not set in stone yet but that was one of the models they pitched to fund continuous development after release. They were also looking at EVE model.
     
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  19. zapotec Learned

    zapotec
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    Ten million copies after release? They plan to release it for consoles?
     
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  20. Alexander DeLarge Arbiter

    Alexander DeLarge
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    The consoles are now powerful enough to run it so I predict it will be announced for consoles. Whether or not it actually releases for the consoles it's announced for is another question entirely. Regardless, I look forward to the E3 meltdown when Chris Roberts comes out on stage at a big Sony/Microsoft presser.

    It's definitely playable on a controller but I hope a keyboard is highly recommended for chat purposes as it'll almost certainly be crossplay if and when it happens.
     
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  21. Perkel Arcane

    Perkel
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    Tested it today more and i have to say 3.12 is the most bug free and stable build i have played. Spent like 4 hours doing missions and stuff and i never got any crasah or bug. Which previously happened to me only once usually game would crash in 2-3 hours or bugs would make it unplayable. There is naturally server lag but outside of that pretty much smooth sailing.

    They already "sold" 2mln copies and they didn't even release game. Only way to play SC right now is to get 50$+tax pack and CIG reported that around 600k players "play" SC monthly. SQ42 is supposed ot feature big stars and nice graphics so it should sell a lot regardless if game will be crap or not as normies love that kind of crap.

    Right now with just one system and limited servers game already takes around 22GB RAM and around 6-7GB VRAM played at 1080p. It is unoptimized yet but i doubt those requirements will change much as scope of the game and amount of stuff on screen will only increase.

    So i doubt it.
     
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  22. zapotec Learned

    zapotec
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    That's the point they already sold the game to 2/3 million users, unless they wait for my nephew to turn 18, they have already almost exhausted the userbase.
     
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  23. Perkel Arcane

    Perkel
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    Most of people do not buy early access games. It is minority that does it.
     
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  24. zapotec Learned

    zapotec
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    yea because there are other 10 millions people just waiting for the release.
     
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  25. Perkel Arcane

    Perkel
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    Is this one of those "They will run out of money soon(tm) ?" They literally just doubled money earned this year compared to previous year. The argument that no one wants to play it or only small handful of people got old about 4 years ago when they crossed their first million of users.

    My opinion is that they can and will break 10mln if they will release SQ42. Even if the game will be mediacore wing commander like structure with well loved actors will gather shitload of attention which equals a lot of copies sold.
     
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