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Star Dynasties – Crusader Kings In Space

Xamenos

Magister
Patron
Joined
Feb 4, 2020
Messages
1,256
Pathfinder: Wrath
Damn son, you must have a ridiculously thin skin if you think it's a big deal when I say you should try your exploits on a difficulty that's not the easiest possible. (on the same post where I said I was disappointed none of the Beta's problems had been fixed no less) How did you survive on the internet so far?

And "legal play"? "smart play"? L O L. Did I hurt your feelings when I called it an exploit?
 

Axioms

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
1,513
Currently have a game on turn 4, with 12 AP remaining but sadly I'm broke. I control 32 planets. Yes it is on Easy. I did not do the archon trick or anything. I just asked any independent dukes to be my vassal.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
I imagine that once you vassalize your first, the growth in size makes it that much easier to vassalize the rest, since they see how much bigger you are with your new pet and thus decide to give up without a fight, which means...

CK has cultural and religious barriers that serve as obstacles to this kind of thing, but speed-WC in CK3 is actually done the same way with a perk that overcomes these issues.
 

Axioms

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
1,513
I imagine that once you vassalize your first, the growth in size makes it that much easier to vassalize the rest, since they see how much bigger you are with your new pet and thus decide to give up without a fight, which means...

CK has cultural and religious barriers that serve as obstacles to this kind of thing, but speed-WC in CK3 is actually done the same way with a perk that overcomes these issues.

Actually a vassal duke adds very little. Star Dynasties has an irritating hatred for power projection and the AI knows how much force you can focus on them. Fleets can only operate within 3 jumps of their location and there is a distance penalty.So having say 4 vassal dukes on the other side of your empire from your target does not increase you military power on the target planet at all. Hell I make it a policy that if my capital is in a starlane pocket I mash restart without even considering other factors.

What I minmaxed to mass vassalize other independent duchies was was my Diplomacy score. I took character creation perks specifically to max my diplomacy score and get bonus opinion/reputation. I dumped Security, the espionage state, because it current is the most useless stat and I even dumped Military. Even they I had 27 planets at the time I only managed to vassalize the last 5 planet duchy because I paid him 120 gold. I actually couldn't even beat him in a fight unless I had a minimum of 360 gold for mercenaries which is functionally impossible on turn 4.
 

Xamenos

Magister
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Pathfinder: Wrath
I only managed to vassalize the last 5 planet duchy because I paid him 120 gold. I actually couldn't even beat him in a fight
So the AI accepted becoming your vassal when it could just beat you up like a pinata until gold and planets start falling out, and you STILL think what you did is "smart" and "legal" play, and not an exploit at all? And after infinite restarts even? Heh.

Can fleets be moved to a more useful location, though?
There's no direct fleet movement in the game. First you declare your attack and then you gather fleets from the planets in range.
 

Axioms

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
1,513
I only managed to vassalize the last 5 planet duchy because I paid him 120 gold. I actually couldn't even beat him in a fight
So the AI accepted becoming your vassal when it could just beat you up like a pinata until gold and planets start falling out, and you STILL think what you did is "smart" and "legal" play, and not an exploit at all? And after infinite restarts even? Heh.

Can fleets be moved to a more useful location, though?
There's no direct fleet movement in the game. First you declare your attack and then you gather fleets from the planets in range.

No the AI can't do shit to me. For the same reason I can't do shit to him. Ironic that you yourself are aware of the reason as explained in the response to Norfleet.
 

Xamenos

Magister
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Messages
1,256
Pathfinder: Wrath
Alright man. Keep pretending you didn't exploit the AI. No skin off my nose.
 

Axioms

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
1,513
I was 5 modifier points away from selling my heir daughter to another archon for his duchy and his 2 vassal duchies, 11 whole planets. I then would have had the positioning to pay 2 AP for all 4 nearby independent duchies on turn 2, reaching a whopping 37 planets.

How does it work? Turns out that all the % effectiveness bonus to stat traits don't actually work right now. So you can trade -20 TEC for 5 trait points, allowing you to take brave, charming, honorable, and friendly as personality traits. You can take Energetic for +2 AP. In previous builtds I took lazy for -2 AP. I think I could have won that game on turn 5 if my diplo advisor was actually good.

See now taking non-functioning traits is an actual exploit. Compared to what I was doing before. Sad you can't tell the difference.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,791
Alright man. Keep pretending you didn't exploit the AI. No skin off my nose.
To be frank, if you are using the in-game mechanics as they are intended, then it is not an exploit. This seems to be a balance issue more than anything else. It's not only the problem that super high diplomacy can override raw power of blatantly stronger opponents (with extra money thrown into the mix), but that security apparently can be treated as a "dump stat", with no drawbacks whatsoever.
 

Axioms

Arcane
Developer
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Jul 11, 2019
Messages
1,513
Alright man. Keep pretending you didn't exploit the AI. No skin off my nose.
To be frank, if you are using the in-game mechanics as they are intended, then it is not an exploit. This seems to be a balance issue more than anything else. It's not only the problem that super high diplomacy can override raw power of blatantly stronger opponents (with extra money thrown into the mix), but that security apparently can be treated as a "dump stat", with no drawbacks whatsoever.

The vast majority of security drawbacks relate to reputation but I'm stacking diplomacy and reputation. I can engage in a dozen tawdry affairs, blackmailing my affair partners for various things, like joining me in a rebellion against my archon for minor happiness and reputation penalties. Similarly there is no point in defaming me because defaming takes 1-5 turns, maybe more? And by the time you want to defame me you don't have 5 turns before I own you plus you'd have to stick half a dozen defamations on me to make an impact.

Security is a *dump* stat only insofar as the scale it works on currently is too slow to stop a diplo minmaxer. Additionally Glen really needs to fill out the actions, missions, and function of Intrigue before security becomes strong.

Prior to the revelation that 5 whole traits don't even work I used to dump mil but now I can afford to pump mil a bit to complement my threats and the 3-5 combats I fight per game. Mil is like Wisdom when your class feature makes Perception and INT roll while Security is a traditional dump stat like Charisma. The other 3 traits are relatively valuable. I would say it goes DIP, ADM, TEC, MIL, SEC. They are all in their own tiers.
 

Xamenos

Magister
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Messages
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Pathfinder: Wrath
To be frank, if you are using the in-game mechanics as they are intended, then it is not an exploit.
There is a huge difference between the Rules As Intended, ie what the guy making them had in his head, and the Rules As Written, ie what the player sees. It is sometimes difficult to tell what the intention behind a rule was, and a lot of ink has been spilled in exactly this topic. Especially in pen n paper RPG discussions. But you cannot possibly believe what Axioms is describing is the developer's intention and that it will not be patched.
 

Harthwain

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Messages
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But you cannot possibly believe what Axioms is describing is the developer's intention and that it will not be patched.
Of course not. But that's because it's Early Access, so balancing is to be expected. From that perspective Axioms' info is useful, because it shows what needs to be looked at.
 

Axioms

Arcane
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But you cannot possibly believe what Axioms is describing is the developer's intention and that it will not be patched.
Of course not. But that's because it's Early Access, so balancing is to be expected. From that perspective Axioms' info is useful, because it shows what needs to be looked at.

I don't understand how Xamenos can't tell the difference between an exploit, using non-functioning negative traits to stack trait points, only fair for all the games I played with some of those traits not knowing, and simply using game mechanics cleverly. AKA min-maxing.
 

Xamenos

Magister
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Pathfinder: Wrath
I don't understand how Xamenos can't tell the difference between an exploit, using non-functioning negative traits to stack trait points, only fair for all the games I played with some of those traits not knowing, and simply using game mechanics cleverly. AKA min-maxing.
Exploits according to Axioms: When others do it, it's an exploit. When I do it, it's using mechanics cleverly.
Exploits according to Xamenos: Anything that lets you win the game in a tenth of its intended duration is an exploit.

Not that hard to understand, though I can't blame you for finding your interpretation more appealing.
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
8,873
Location
Italy
POSTED: 5 JULY
Up front, I like grand strategy. If done right.

SD being in Early Access, one can only hope that "Early" stands for "Oh-so very, very Early". As it is, the game hovers haplessly in limbo between confusing and aggravating. Compairing it to Crusader Kings 3 is like comparing a soap box car to a Lamborghinii - both have four wheels, one on each corner.

SD's UI is nothing short of a crime. For instance, when one clicks on a system, one gets some little picture of its sun. Cool, except, in order to get the vital information about the population unrest level, one needs to click on the appropriate sub-menu. That gets old with three starter planets already. Is there a reason, why there isn't a comprehensive summary in the top menu, say, in place of the pretty picture?

So then, let's talk about unrest. Say, your own system starts with around 40% and a growth of roughly 3% per turn. Which means, if nothing changes, then the rabble throws stones through your bedroom window in 20 turns - unless you use two of your precious action points every second turn to soothe the masses. Time to find out, what exactly it is you did wrong. One half of the aggravation is "Complacency". Turns out, less developed neighbor systems within your own hegemony make the richer system unhappy - because its nobles are bored. No joke. Which means every penny invested in your capital undermines your population control permanently. The other half of the aggravation is that they are "offended by ruler act". Rightfully so, because they complained about a disease outbreak and you (who started with the attribute "intelligent") decided, the latter was the result of their smell, so you sent perfume. Which was a special event. Looking at this it is hard to decide, what makes less sense. On one hand, there is the fact that the leader of a star-faring entity (ruled from an asteroid belt, no less) sends perfume to a disease outbreak - but the smelly subjects know better. On the other hand, the event happens repeatedly, and repeatedly your only option is to click "ok". Don't you love it, when the game makes the decisions for you? And of course, your vassals can't stay on top of their unrest. So there go another 2 AP to quell unrest. For each vassal. For every turn.

Talking about special events. Special events are suffocating the game. Barons (system owners) can and will break their vassalage randoomly. If you're dumb enough to accept such a baron's offer, you will be hated by a whole lot of people including your own - just to see him pledge to someone else ten turns later. So all you can ever get out of such a deal is hatred and the hole in the pocket for every penny spent on the habitual traitor. Contender for the crown of Stupidest Event Ever is, when a liege of a neighbor faction starts to hate you, because you failed to publicly criticize a heinous act of a baron, who was - I kid you not - their vasall. Then again, top of the pops is the "option" to have a fling (including blood relatives). You don't want to? Tough luck. Now your mood falls like an anvil off a cliff in Looney Tunes (because you're sooo in lurve) - and everybody hates you, because hey, you didn't think they believed it when you said "no", did ya?

Another disaster very much not like CK3 is family planning. You're in a society that wants to rebuild after the Big Badda Boom. So you have "foot" shortages (it's bad not to have feet, right?). Of course, in the perfume-addled laser brain of your duke toon, that means there are too many people. Result? Everybody is only allowed one child. Which, in effect, would half your population every generation and exterminate your tax base long before you go extinct. Which fits perfectly in line with the nonsensical setup and would just be one more thing you better don't think too hard about - except, the nonsense limits your household size. Since you start over the limit, your heir better waits a while to be born. That's not possible, because every couple will have their one child, whether you like it or not? In the end, all you can do is forbid ANY marriage to begin with. There is absolutely no ensuring an heir, let alone a mere glimpse of the breeding game. Which should be receiving standing ovations from the peanut gallery, because in the last 11 turns a full third of your subjects decided to hate you - I guess, because there are too many Thursdays in the week.

Yeah, yeah, whatever. What about war? Grand strategy and all that jazz. Depends on what you're talking about. Raids? Sure, makes a whole lot of sense in space. Well, it trashes any diplomatic effort, which hasn't been made senseless by random events. Battles? Sure, except that allies are randomized AFTER your choice to attack. And of course, ten turns after your completely random success your baron may just decide to defect. If that is not enough silliness, you get frequent requests of invaders for help to beat your own barons to pulp.

The list is a lot longer, but what it all comes down to is that this game is not like CK3. In its current design it is not even a miserable copy. It is, instead, a never-ending random sequence of completely idiotic events, which ruin any attempt at what little gameplay the mechanics sensibly allow so far.

ouch, this sounds harsh.
at the moment, not even pirates are interested, not even those who drool on the most obscure, never heard before, crappy indie from zoe queer,
 

Axioms

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
1,513
So the new DLC came out and honestly, this should have been in the game from day 1. Bloodlines lets you set up a custom family, with a decent amount of detail, provides a CK-like guardianship system, and lets you get bloodline traits, again pretty CK-esque. If this had been part of the game from day 1 I think it would have done much better initially and had a better reputation. Sadly for Glen you just don't really get second chances as an indie dev. $30 for the base game and $8 for this? Not sure that is justified.
 

darkpatriot

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
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Mar 28, 2010
Messages
5,838
I went back to check out what has been added to this game since I had last played, and I was very disappointed to see that they had stopped development for the base game and actually had the audacity to release as a DLC improvements that should have been improvements added to the base game.

I was willing to purchase the game despite its limited content based on how the developer seemed to be continuing to work on adding new features.

And not only did what should have been a normal update get released as a DLC, but the developer appears to have stopped all development within 5 months of the release of the DLC, which definitely makes it look like nothing more than a cash grab that didn't even go towards raising funds to continue working on the game.

I can understand that a small indie developer may not have the time and resources to continue working on a game, especially if it doesn't sell well, but I strongly got the impression that the developer was planning on fleshing out this very bare bones game based on what I had seen them write about it. If this was all it was ever going to be, I feel the developer dropped the ball on communicating that before hand.
 

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