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Starfield - "space epic" from Bethesda Game Studios

CthuluIsSpy

Arcane
Joined
Dec 26, 2014
Messages
6,387
Location
On the internet, writing shit posts.
>Be Bethesda
>Refuse to stop using the creation engine
>Release low FPS trailer showcasing incredible stutter and dated graphics

They have no shame.
>Releases it in a buggy and barely finished state.
>Charges 60 dollars for it.
>People buy it anyway and call it the best game ever, even though they have to mod it heavily to fix performance issues and add features that should have been in the game to begin with.
Every.Fucking.Time.

 
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Jarmaro

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
Messages
1,252
Location
Lair of Despair
Ironic how Shamus Young (RIP) called for procedural generation to be used in a sandbox open-world game, like Fallout 3. Almost thirteen years ago. I wonder what he thought of it these last few days before his death. The potential is surely there, AI art, music and even text generation is imporoving at extreme lengths as of late, and if curated by a human who chooses the best results out of thousands of generated works we can easily achieve decent enough results. Applying this to video game worlds is a no-brainer. The fact that we're seeing it used on such a scale in probably the biggest AAA game of this decade (or one of two, if TES 6 does deliver) is going to be a model for the rest of the industry. Not as if it wasn't exactly unused before, but not on this scale.

Just the other day I played Minecraft again and couldn't believe how much better is the mountains generation compared to the stuff that I wished for all those years ago. Almost any palce makes me giddy to build a house there and start making towers, bridges etc. The views are trully charming. Just imagine how much of workload could be off-loaded from the developers if they could focus filling the created world, instead of painstakingly building everything from scratch, and combining it with hand-crafted relevant locations everywhere it matters. I guess I sound a bit like Todd now, but the vision of games with unprecedented sizes is incredibly captivating.

On a side note, I wonder if Todd specificaly wanted to do Starfield before TES 6 as a test run of procedural generation, as you can be sure as hell if it works in Starfield it will be used in TES 6. It makes sense if you look at it from the point of view of Todd, a person that, from what I know, really loved Daggerfall. All those years, just to return to Illiac Bay, bringing the extreme technological advancements in design, procedural generation and programming with him. It trully warms the heart to see a man so hell-bent on following his dream, thorough all those years. He will weather any insult and slur on himself, just so that he can step by step gain all the knowledge neccessary to create his masterpiece. It shows in his interviews as well, he isn't just a conman as people call him, he has passion for the games that few people can match. I love Todd Howard, may he bring us the incline that was promised. He's the closest we have to a prophesized Hero.
 

tritosine2k

Augur
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
854
Procedural is what you got in RAGE2 and everyone prefers to forget about.

Plus can you even generate semi-interior /exterior with any fidelity. If it can't handle anything like that then barren planets are a possibility and YTers are right
 

Jarmaro

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
Messages
1,252
Location
Lair of Despair
Procedural is what you got in RAGE2 and everyone prefers to forget about.
Admittedly I didn't play Rage 2 and I cannot find anything about it being used in the development, but it's true, then knowing Rage 2 was also published by Bethesda means they tested it there as well. It'd be a funny conspiracy theory, Todd ruining other games behind the scenes by forcing technological prototypes to be tested in their making, just so he could make even better open-world CRPGs for himself.
 

copebot

Learned
Joined
Dec 27, 2020
Messages
220
Pretty sure everything in Rage 2 was hand painted and placed apart from the usual procedural generation of terrain and other natural features which is then later hand edited. The problem with that game was really just the open world Ubilike point of interest design. The combat was fine outside of the balancing issues. It's just you spend a lot of your time driving from spot to spot instantly murdering armies of people and then moving to the next spot. Even on the extreme difficulty setting your powers just made you wildly OP, which made it a pretty weak SP shooter.

Ghost Recon: Breakpoint has excellent procedural terrain modified by hand. It and the other, better Ghost Recon also did a great job with this. Division 2 used tons of photogrammetry and satellite imagery as a starting point. That part of the Ubiverse of games is probably the best part of them, with the "game" parts being more perfunctory, sometimes sub-serviceable, and less interesting.
 

Meme Knight

Literate
Joined
Mar 11, 2022
Messages
21
Technically he wasn't wrong. Skyrim had infinite quests, actually i found that pretty impressive at the time, even if they were just rudimentary go kill, fetch stuff from X.

Radiant AI is a joke but from time to time they have some moments like when you drop by random some cabbage and NPC will pick it up and then second NPC will accuse first NPC of stealing and they will start to fight each other. I just wish they would focus more on that instead of their shitty stories. Also if your murder shopkeeper his kin can take over shop which is not something you can see in any other RPG. There is some daggerfall DNA still there in things like that.

Betsheda could be respected dev if they would focus entirely on game systems. I said it in Fallout 4 thread. Fallout 4 might be garbage Fallout game but with different name and removal of almost all quests and npcs + some extra sprinkle of survival good light survival game.
The Main problem i see with bethesda is that they have a very random design philosophy, With Fallout 4: They didn't know which game they wanted FO4 to be, does it want to be a survival/crafting game? (ex: the settlement system, the gun modification) does it want to be a first person shooter? (ex: The legendary system, majority of quests revolve around fixing your problems with a bullet.) does it want to be an RPG? (ex: vague attempt at implementing skills into perks, integrating charisma into speech checks) it doesn't know what it wants to be, so it tries to do it all and fails miserably on all them, because they didn't focus on doing one thing and innovating on that, they tried to all of them in an attempt to please everyone, and ended up pleasing no one.
if bethesda wants starfield to be a NMS clone, good, keep it that way, don't ramshackle dozens of systems into a game and not being able to innovate on those systems cause they have countless others to worry about.
And i want Radiant Quests to die a quick death, it's useless, it adds nothing to the game but give players who have no life do the same bland, mundane, dull action over and over again, and i don't think a system that repeats the exact same shit over and over again, to be "impressive" more like it's a waste of time, both for the player and the developer, as they could be focusing on more important aspects of the game.
 

Pink Eye

Monk
Patron
Joined
Oct 10, 2019
Messages
5,043
Location
Space Refrigerator

truly. skyrim 2.0 is going to revolutionize the gaming world forever. i dont know about the rest of you. but i've already preordered the game on steam and bought the super ultimate mega ultra collectors edition with anime dancing figurine.
 

Ryzer

Erudite
Joined
May 1, 2020
Messages
688
Nobody narrowed the fact that apparently Starfield has around 150000+ lines of dialogues which is twice as many as FNV.
 

Immortal

Arcane
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
4,152
Plus can you even generate semi-interior /exterior with any fidelity. If it can't handle anything like that then barren planets are a possibility and YTers are right

You absolutely can.
Corridor and object placement are all solved with prefab fulfillment, Nodes vs Weighted Paths, yadda yadda.
They aren't even close to the first company to do this.. This technology is a dime-a-dozen.

What you can't do is fill those areas with anything meaningful besides Enemies and Loot.

I forsee lots of generic repeated audio, similar to Skyrim. Lotta "Took a laser to the knee" pirate enemies.
Also this procedural work is done upfront at their Studio, CK can't do it. That means that all this shit they are generating has to be packaged with the game - the worlds don't build out as you explore like Minecraft chunks worlds.. How big is this game gonna be? How big are savefiles gonna be when your dropping alien body parts all across every planet.. Are they gonna unload them when you leave?

(Building out the world state as you explore would also balloon your save state - I just can't picture 1000 planets in the creation engine though.. )

They either have some really cool tech, or this is gonna be a unmitigated shit show. :lol:
 
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Immortal

Arcane
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
4,152

Camel

Learned
Joined
Sep 10, 2021
Messages
217
Nobody narrowed the fact that apparently Starfield has around 150000+ lines of dialogues which is twice as many as FNV.

Lines of Dialogue

Skyrim: 60 000

Fallout New Vegas: 65 000

Fallout 4: 110 000
(13 000 belongs to the protagonist, both male and female)

Starfield: 200 000+
(Todd says this in IGN interview, not sure where the 150 number comes from?)


---

And yet.. Fallout 4 felt like it had almost none.. and New Vegas felt so full.
Quality over Quantity.
Precisely, sometimes less is more. Morrowind and Fallout 1-2 had great writing while Cringefinder: Wrath of the Trannies has verbal diarrhea which made me skip dialogue in an RPG first time in my life.
The Codex sometimes rightly preaches about decline.
 

markec

Twitterbot
Patron
Joined
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Messages
31,267
Location
Croatia
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Dead State Project: Eternity Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
>Refuse to stop using the creation engine.
If the choice is the outdated creation engine that's easily moddable and a new engine that's better looking, more stable, offers more options to the developer but it's hard to mod I would still choose creation engine since I believe Bethesda no matter the tools can't make a good game. That way at least you have hope that modders will fix it.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
14,037
why they would stop to use it when it gives them free design ideas ?

I mean whole base building was just straight up ripped from Fallout mod.

Weapon crafting ? Also mod for FNV.
 

Yosharian

Magister
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
6,438
Location
Hammerfell
Yeah I'm sure Beth are laser-focused on making sure modders have a great experience with their new game

Definitely a priority for them
 

Jarmaro

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
Messages
1,252
Location
Lair of Despair
Every single knowledgable person that I've seen writing about the Creation Engine agreed that they shouldn't drop it. THey already have documentation, expertise and knowledge how to use it, they just need to rewrite parts of it like they did for Starfield.
 

wishbonetail

Learned
Joined
Oct 18, 2021
Messages
543
Nobody narrowed the fact that apparently Starfield has around 150000+ lines of dialogues which is twice as many as FNV.
Numanuma has over a million words.
I mean for a Bethesda game, that's impressive.
It's just 50 different iterations of "I saw a space mudcrab the other day, horrible creatures."
You all forgetting about 149999 of main characters names Not-Codsworth will call him.
 

MichaelB

Literate
Joined
May 1, 2022
Messages
26
Location
Poland
Pandorum is one of my favorite films, I even enjoy average but mediocre stuff like Oblivion.
Fellow Pandorum enjoyer :obviously::obviously: I was positively surprised when Callisto's director mentioned Pandorum as one of his inspirations. He mentioned a lot of good stuff, including mediocre horror stories like Life. That's a sign of a solid designer right there; a lesser man would only point to popular and proven movies, because they could not discern quality on their own. There's quite often a lot of value in otherwise mediocre titles. Especially if you're a sci-fi horror fan; it really helps to develop an attitude of actively looking for positives, without much expectations overall, since most space horror movies are B-type. It's a helpful attitude when applied to games as well; something that made me enjoy, say, DA:Inquisition, despite its glaring flaws. But back to Starfield...

The game's world and aesthetics do not really seem grounded or 'hard' at all, especially the space part. The combat looks like a fairly generic star wars-like close range dogfight, but since your ship looks like a piece of junk, I guess it's no longer space fantasy, it's NASA CORE. The aforementioned Oblivion(movie), while somewhat deserving of that 'mediocre' label, has shown a beautiful rendition of 'futuristic but believable' visual theme in its first half, without a trace of industrial, dusty, or ugly motives that, to me, appear to really dilute the atmosphere of this game.
Starfield-features-spaceship-combat.jpg
I think the particular problem with space combat is that due to how insulated the space portion is - no seamless transitions between space and surface; quite likely no flying over the surface either - it's just going to be filler. I can easily see how people will want to mod space combat out of the game. Just like in No Man's Sky - all the interesting stuff is on land, so space combat, and the entire space section of the game becomes something you want to avoid, unless you're farming materials.

I do agree with many posters who have mentioned that the art style is unappealing. That is one thing; an even bigger problem is that it lacks a guiding principle: some parts of it look like star-wars tatooine, others like a generic star trek/mass effect slightly utopian future; and suddenly there's also the industrial and purposefully ugly part. This is not good in a creative work; one could always argue that this is somewhat realistic - I think it isn't either. If you saw various art assets from this next to each other, you'd not figure they come from the same game. On the other hand. the interface and weapon models I do like, with the exception of the silver bullet shotgun. Particularly that one gun that copied the distinctive curvy design of Death Stranding's assault rifle. You're a champ if you recognised this one.

Overall this is shaping up to be an enjoyable mediocre game. Since Oblivion came out I never finished a bethesda title, despite playing them all, often for dozens of hours. I just run around ignoring the plot, pretending to be an adventurer or roleplaying as different characters the game technically does not allow you to be. I think this is going to be exactly the same this time, that is - if there'll be any hype left in me once this releases. Which is debatable.
 

ropetight

Novice
Joined
Dec 9, 2018
Messages
38
Location
Zagreb, Croatia
Pandorum is one of my favorite films, I even enjoy average but mediocre stuff like Oblivion.
Fellow Pandorum enjoyer :obviously::obviously: I was positively surprised when Callisto's director mentioned Pandorum as one of his inspirations. He mentioned a lot of good stuff, including mediocre horror stories like Life. That's a sign of a solid designer right there; a lesser man would only point to popular and proven movies, because they could not discern quality on their own. There's quite often a lot of value in otherwise mediocre titles. Especially if you're a sci-fi horror fan; it really helps to develop an attitude of actively looking for positives, without much expectations overall, since most space horror movies are B-type. It's a helpful attitude when applied to games as well; something that made me enjoy, say, DA:Inquisition, despite its glaring flaws. But back to Starfield...

The game's world and aesthetics do not really seem grounded or 'hard' at all, especially the space part. The combat looks like a fairly generic star wars-like close range dogfight, but since your ship looks like a piece of junk, I guess it's no longer space fantasy, it's NASA CORE. The aforementioned Oblivion(movie), while somewhat deserving of that 'mediocre' label, has shown a beautiful rendition of 'futuristic but believable' visual theme in its first half, without a trace of industrial, dusty, or ugly motives that, to me, appear to really dilute the atmosphere of this game.
Starfield-features-spaceship-combat.jpg
I think the particular problem with space combat is that due to how insulated the space portion is - no seamless transitions between space and surface; quite likely no flying over the surface either - it's just going to be filler. I can easily see how people will want to mod space combat out of the game. Just like in No Man's Sky - all the interesting stuff is on land, so space combat, and the entire space section of the game becomes something you want to avoid, unless you're farming materials.

I do agree with many posters who have mentioned that the art style is unappealing. That is one thing; an even bigger problem is that it lacks a guiding principle: some parts of it look like star-wars tatooine, others like a generic star trek/mass effect slightly utopian future; and suddenly there's also the industrial and purposefully ugly part. This is not good in a creative work; one could always argue that this is somewhat realistic - I think it isn't either. If you saw various art assets from this next to each other, you'd not figure they come from the same game. On the other hand. the interface and weapon models I do like, with the exception of the silver bullet shotgun. Particularly that one gun that copied the distinctive curvy design of Death Stranding's assault rifle. You're a champ if you recognised this one.

Overall this is shaping up to be an enjoyable mediocre game. Since Oblivion came out I never finished a bethesda title, despite playing them all, often for dozens of hours. I just run around ignoring the plot, pretending to be an adventurer or roleplaying as different characters the game technically does not allow you to be. I think this is going to be exactly the same this time, that is - if there'll be any hype left in me once this releases. Which is debatable.
You have to collect all the pants, screw the main quest!
 

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