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Vapourware Steam is (NO LONGER) charging for mods now lmao

markec

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One of the biggest problems with paid mods was evident almost immediately. There was bunch of mods uploaded to Steam workshop which contained assets stolen from other modders. This pissed off many modders who openly said that in case of monetizing mods they will cease modding Bethesda games.

There are several other problems with getting paid mods for a game like Skyrim where mods are not only cosmetic but add functionality and expand the game itself.


To create anything more complex then recoloring of armor or building something with in game assests you need third party utilities which are free since they are made by modders for modders. If mods get monetized expect those utilities to also get price tag, which would alienate a number of future modders.

Complex mods need a lot of work and modding community helps with creating them both by releasing utilites to make modders life easier but also with advices, sharing assets and play testing. If mods are monetized few would be eager to help their competition.

As mentioned fear of stealing assets would with above mentioned things cripple the community which in return would produce far less more complex quality mods.

Bethesda would be hurt in the long run since mods expand shelf life of the game, the better the community the game will sell longer. Not to mention that many people who buy Bethesda games are well aware that their games are very flawed and few are eager to buy 60$ game, 40$ season pass and spend 100$ extra for unofficial patches, UI fixes and bunch of other mods that make their games actually playable.
 

Khorne

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To create anything more complex then recoloring of armor or building something with in game assests you need third party utilities which are free since they are made by modders for modders. If mods get monetized expect those utilities to also get price tag, which would alienate a number of future modders.

Sure the 3rd party toolmakers need incentive, but I think valve (and not the end users) should compensate them, audit the tools before making them available, and curate the list of these tools.
Best thing to do would be giving all modders remote access to a set of virtualized tools, rather than limit the platform to select few modders who can afford the tools license.
As opposed to: If you want to mod, you must buy overpriced_garbage(tm) because overpriced_garbage(tm) was used to make the game, but we're not allowed to ship overpriced_garbage(tm) with it.

As mentioned fear of stealing assets would with above mentioned things cripple the community which in return would produce far less more complex quality mods.

My point is that mods would be better if everyone had access to same tools, and the ripping of assets couldn't be more obvious if the environment was completely under valve's control.
Right now it's not at all under their control, if you want to mod certain titles you can choose between official crippled editor and a bunch of 3rd party tools many of which are malware.
Not only that, but sometimes the devs ship the editor saying it's full, but is missing half the features used to make the game because they're closed source macros or some shit.
Just saying, don't bother getting into it before they fix the workshop in some way that ensures the content is fully supported and actually original content and not a ripoff.
When it becomes more than just a Hat shop and starts including remakes and retextures I might go and spend a few bucks. Until then I wouldn't recommend it, I'm not all that into hats.
 

markec

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Sure the 3rd party toolmakers need incentive, but I think valve (and not the end users) should compensate them, audit the tools before making them available, and curate the list of these tools.
Best thing to do would be giving all modders remote access to a set of virtualized tools, rather than limit the platform to select few modders who can afford the tools license.
As opposed to: If you want to mod, you must buy overpriced_garbage(tm) because overpriced_garbage(tm) was used to make the game, but we're not allowed to ship overpriced_garbage(tm) with it.

My point is that mods would be better if everyone had access to same tools, and the ripping of assets couldn't be more obvious if the environment was completely under valve's control.
Right now it's not at all under their control, if you want to mod certain titles you can choose between official crippled editor and a bunch of 3rd party tools many of which are malware.
Not only that, but sometimes the devs ship the editor saying it's full, but is missing half the features used to make the game because they're closed source macros or some shit.
Just saying, don't bother getting into it before they fix the workshop in some way that ensures the content is fully supported and actually original content and not a ripoff.
When it becomes more than just a Hat shop and starts including remakes and retextures I might go and spend a few bucks. Until then I wouldn't recommend it, I'm not all that into hats.

You are implying Valve needs to monopolize modding scene and then control it as it sees fits. Which I find nothing but a scary prospect seeing how I doubt (despite Gaben words) that their primary objective is well being of modders and not them milking extra money for their own benefit.

Now Im talking about Bethesda modding scene I dont know much about state of modding of other games, but the current Bethesda modding scene consist of huge number of modders who get quality fan made third party programs, advice, help, assets and cooperation of large friendly community. That sounds to me as a perfect modding enviroment that doesnt need to change and the proof of that is a huge number of quality mods that get many new releases and updates 6 years after game was released.

The short period that Skyrim mods were monetized already saw many fractures in the community. Like some putting essential mods on sale, others refusing to monetize but saying they would no longer cooperate with those who sell their mods and calling them traitors and many just looking if anyone has used their assets in mods that were put on sale.

In a short period of time a lot of bad blood was made and once united community was quickly falling apart, becuase of money.

So I dont know how would monetizing mods work for some other games, but for Bethesda games I cant see anything but disaster.
 

Khorne

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You are implying Valve needs to monopolize modding scene and then control it as it sees fits.

Not really, all I'm saying is valve should provide tools and compensate tool authors if they want a cut from every mod created by these tools.
I'd say the same thing if nexus or blizzard started selling mods, so don't twist my words.

The short period that Skyrim mods were monetized already saw many fractures in the community.

Last time they tried it couldn't have possibly work because:

1. The modding community was already mature and healthy.
2. The publisher was very very greedy and valve did not make it clear whether or not they take a cut only for hosting.
3. They announced a huge cut they will take, but not a word on support, security and authenticity of these products they were selling.
4. There was a legal problem with some of the tools/mods license.

I already discussed this in another modding thread on this forum.
 

markec

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Not really, all I'm saying is valve should provide tools and compensate tool authors if they want a cut from every mod created by these tools.
I'd say the same thing if nexus or blizzard started selling mods, so don't twist my words.

Its just silly to think Valve or anyone else would provide tools for free to modders or compensate authors for every mod created by those tools for every game on Steam. Not to mention that many modders would not share their tools intentionally, even for a price in order to remove competition. Again for Skyrim every single complex mod needs SKSE, imagine that team refusing to share that even for Valve money and only keeping it for themselves to produce paid mods that would be 1/10 of quality that a community would produce.

Im not twisting your words, you talked only about Valve taking control on mods, if you talked only about Nexus then I would have implied the same thing only about them.



Last time they tried it couldn't have possibly work because:

1. The modding community was already mature and healthy.
2. The publisher was very very greedy and valve did not make it clear whether or not they take a cut only for hosting.
3. They announced a huge cut they will take, but not a word on support, security and authenticity of these products they were selling.
4. There was a legal problem with some of the tools/mods license.

I already discussed this in another modding thread on this forum.

Sure those are the reasons why it failed so quickly. But you keep missing my point, Im not saying you cant make a working system to monetize mods, Im saying that monetization of mods would be a negative thing for all parties involved.

So let me repeat myself.

Players would be hurt because many of them would refuse to pay for mods and/or refuse to buy the game itself since they know without mods they are not worth the time.

Even if you make a perfect system without any flaws that make modders not afraid of anyone stealing their assets and getting a fair amount of money per sale, you would still have a problem of competition and of cooperation. The best Skyrim mods were made by large number of modders aka community working together. You can forget that when money becomes an issue.

With the shortage of quality mods, word of mouth will dry up just like the shelf life of the game, decreasing publishers profits.



So again the biggest problem of monetizing mods is not in creating a good platform for selling mods but the implications it would have on the modding community itself.
 

Khorne

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Its just silly to think Valve or anyone else would provide tools for free to modders

But valve already provides hammer. free tools for source engine, blizzard has given players the best map editor out there, and for example Xenonauts devs have shared the source code.
I don't see a problem except the publisher greed, and braindead developers using Flash or some other obsolete tech with a prohibiting license.

Even if you make a perfect system without any flaws that make modders not afraid of anyone stealing their assets and getting a fair amount of money per sale, you would still have a problem of competition and of cooperation. The best Skyrim mods were made by large number of modders aka community working together. You can forget that when money becomes an issue.

I disagree, you see the software community works together kind of the same way, there is git for example which is used by both commercial and non-commercial devs.
Sometimes they do both at the same time, but only providing support and patches for the paid version.

So again the biggest problem of monetizing mods is not in creating a good platform for selling mods but the implications it would have on the modding community itself.

Well if the platform is bad nobody will buy or sell mods, so creating a good one is a logical step forward.
And if the game is brand new and unheard of, then it lacks a community so it can't possibly be affected in any way.
 

markec

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But valve already provides hammer. free tools for source engine, blizzard has given players the best map editor out there, and for example Xenonauts devs have shared the source code.
I don't see a problem except the publisher greed, and braindead developers using Flash or some other obsolete tech with a prohibiting license.

Im not talking about mod tools that devs release for their own games. Im talking about third party utilities made by modders to expand limitations of offical tools and/or make modding easier. For each Bethesda game there are dozens of them and they are completely free for community to use and pretty essential if you want to do any serious modding. I dont believe Valve or Bethesda will, in case of monetization, buy the right to distribute every single utility to every modder for free.

I disagree, you see the software community works together kind of the same way, there is git for example which is used by both commercial and non-commercial devs.
Sometimes they do both at the same time, but only providing support and patches for the paid version.

You can disagree becaue you dont know that community. Big complex mods are a product thats several years in making of huge number of modders providing free help in custom made utilities, assets, programming, scripting, advices and huge number of time spent testing. What Im talking about is not a theory or possibility but what actually happened. Let me repeat myself, for a short time that Skyrim mods were monetized there were massive cracks in the community that created bad blood between modders that lasts even today. The moment mods became monetized again you can forget seeing those people working together ever again.


Well if the platform is bad nobody will buy or sell mods, so creating a good one is a logical step forward.

Creating a good platform is easier said then done. Lets say Valve does it, will they buy and provide all third party utilities needed for modding, will they provide quality control and protect assets, will they ask for a cut or do all that for free and how much will be a publisher cut. There are losts of things to be done in order to create a great platform for paid mods and in reality it is possible if the publisher and Valve would do it while having well being of modders and players as a main goal, which is just laughable.


And if the game is brand new and unheard of, then it lacks a community so it can't possibly be affected in any way.

This is simply naive, same problems of the old community befalls new one. Lets ignore the fact that for Bethesda games its the same community that mods every single their game and will do so for every future game. Instead lets say a totally new game from a new developer comes with toolset and devs encourage players to create mods for money.

You again have competition and lack of cooparation between modders as a main problem, not to mention constant fear of assets theft. You will still sometimes get a good complex mod but nowere near as good as many or as complex as the one where entire community works together for the community.[/QUOTE]
 

Gerrard

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Why are you autistically screeching about this again when they have been selling "mods" on the curated workshops for years now?
 

Khorne

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For each Bethesda game there are dozens of them

There's thousands of maps on hive workshop for a single game. Your point is?

I'm not trying to be rude, but you wrote Bethesda 3 times in each post on this page, you're trying to earn a tag or something?
If you had read the rest of the thread you'd realize I've no respect for them whatsoever, so excuse my utter disregard for their community.

If I could go to workshop and buy a complete retexture for diablo2, or maybe a modern vulkan port of some older games, then I would go there and buy.
It's in everyone's best interest that the Hat shop becomes a place where you can go and support the things you want, not a place where you get ripped off.

Don't care if that divides some random community or not.
 

markec

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There's thousands of maps on hive workshop for a single game. Your point is?

Im sorry my english is far from great but I thought I was quite clear about this. Im not talking here about mods but third party made utilities that are essential for complex modding. Here is what you said " all I'm saying is valve should provide tools and compensate tool authors if they want a cut from every mod created by these tools" for which I replied that there are low chance that Valve or anyone else would buy every single essential utility made for modding and just give it away to every single modders.

I'm not trying to be rude, but you wrote Bethesda 3 times in each post on this page, you're trying to earn a tag or something?

Well you are trying to rude, but I dont mind. As I said before, again forgive my poor english since obviously its quite poor since I need to repeat myself every post. I said before that Im know about Bethesda modding community and I speak about my experience from that angle. I dont claim to speak for every modding community since every single one is different and you cant apply all same rules to every community and expect the same results.

If you had read the rest of the thread you'd realize I've no respect for them whatsoever, so excuse my utter disregard for their community.

Well I have very little love for Bethesda but their modding community is one of the best if not the best in gaming. Treating them the same as the developer and openly showing contempt for them can hardly make you look objective in this discussion.

If I could go to workshop and buy a complete retexture for diablo2, or maybe a modern vulkan port of some older games, then I would go there and buy.

Good for you.

It's in everyone's best interest that the Hat shop becomes a place where you can go and support the things you want, not a place where you get ripped off.

Was that ever in question?

Don't care if that divides some random community or not.

Well my impression was that ultiamte goal of modding was about fans creating quality content for games they love, not to earn a quick buck even if that ruins the said community.

To each his own I guess.
 

Khorne

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Im not talking here about mods but third party made utilities that are essential for complex modding. Here is what you said " all I'm saying is valve should provide tools and compensate tool authors if they want a cut from every mod created by these tools" for which I replied that there are low chance that Valve or anyone else would buy every single essential utility made for modding and just give it away to every single modders.

Utilities you speak of would not be essential for you, or anyone else if the developers did their job properly and shipped a complete set of tools with the game.
And again you are twisting my words, I'm not saying valve should buy all utilities and distribute them, I'm saying they should make tools available, like they do with Hammer.

If valve owns the toolkit and the game, they can ship both, take their cut from Hats and that's it. See Dota2.
If the 3rd party game developers want to ship their toolkit, THAT is what valve (and not the modder, or the mod buyer) should compensate for.
If the 4th party utility author wants to sell a tool for a 3rd party game on the platform, he should petition 3rd party game developer for inclusion in the official toolkit.

However some tools are non-commercial, so for these tools I did suggest a virtual environment, because valve obviously has permission to host them but not sell them alongside commercial tools.
It would fix a lot if compatibility problems by the way, if every modder used the same kit.
 

markec

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Utilities you speak of would not be essential for you, or anyone else if the developers did their job properly and shipped a complete set of tools with the game.

And if it rained money noone would be poor.

And again you are twisting my words, I'm not saying valve should buy all utilities and distribute them, I'm saying they should make tools available, like they do with Hammer.

I said that if they start monetizing mods those utilities would also get a price tag and only way for Valve to, as you said, "all I'm saying is valve should provide tools and compensate tool authors if they want a cut from every mod created by these tools" is by Valve spending money because thats the only way to make them available to modders.

If valve owns the toolkit and the game, they can ship both, take their cut from Hats and that's it. See Dota2.

Thats the standard for pretty much every game, thats beside the point and nothing to do with this discussion.

If the 3rd party game developers want to ship their toolkit, THAT is what valve (and not the modder, or the mod buyer) should compensate for.

And Valve will do that for every game because they are such nice people.

If the 4th party utility author wants to sell a tool for a 3rd party game on the platform, he should petition 3rd party game developer for inclusion in the official toolkit.

You really imagine a idealistic situation where every single thing needs to fall in its place in order for your fantasy modding platform be viable. Problem is that in the real life things rarely go how you imagine. Why would a modder who make a essential utility put it into a developer toolkit with other utilities only to get same money as others while his is more important and can get more money on his own. Maybe he would rather keep it for himself so that he lowers his own competition and make his own mods more profitable. There are many possibilites, the one where everyone puts their utilities in a same basket is least likely one. But hey we can dream right.

However some tools are non-commercial, so for these tools I did suggest a virtual environment, because valve obviously has permission to host them but not sell them alongside commercial tools.
It would fix a lot if compatibility problems by the way, if every modder used the same kit.

You already have this now while everything is free.
 

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So Valve wants to put Microsoft to shame. First with the auto accept for money submissions, and now again with pay to play a finished fixed game, by modders, developed by Bethesda and published by Valve.

If they continue like this even hardcore anti win 10 like me will actually try the new incloosive Microsoft Store, cause Valve clearly have reached the peak of decline and will continue to do so.

"We are so poor to hire curation for newly submitted games, so we decided to ask for more money for auto submission, with possibility of recouping a bit of that money. The store will fix itself!!!"

Fuck Steam and Valve! I hope the degenerates from Microsoft destroys them in a few years.
 

ERYFKRAD

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Been ages since I checked out Hiveworkshop, wonder what's happening in there.
 

Khorne

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Why would a modder who make a essential utility put it into a developer toolkit with other utilities only to get same money as others while his is more important and can get more money on his own.

Not sure if this is a honest question or just trolling. You don't get to decide which utility is essential and more important than others.
Have you ever heard of steam-runtime? It's a collection of libraries, or as you bluntly put it: "where everyone puts their utilities in a same basket"
It's a software development standard, not some fictional concept.

Maybe he would rather keep it for himself so that he lowers his own competition and make his own mods more profitable.

So let him keep it then, he can sell it offsite. If every utility were allowed on the platform without developer permission and quality control, it would be filled with malware.
This discussion is futile until you note the list of software which you consider essential, as the only thing I may consider essential is a source code editor.
 

markec

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Not sure if this is a honest question or just trolling. You don't get to decide which utility is essential and more important than others.

Actually I do, modders choose which utility is essential for their modding not Valve.

Have you ever heard of steam-runtime? It's a collection of libraries, or as you bluntly put it: "where everyone puts their utilities in a same basket"
It's a software development standard, not some fictional concept.

What does that have to do with anything I said? Just because you can put your mod or utility on Steam that doesnt mean you will. Because as I noted, again I repeat myself, not all people would think thats in their best interest and you cant force them to do it.

So let him keep it then, he can sell it offsite.

You really dont get what this discussion is about, dont you.

If every utility were allowed on the platform without developer permission and quality control, it would be filled with malware.

You mean like Nexus is filled with malware, oh wait.

This discussion is futile until you note the list of software which you consider essential, as the only thing I may consider essential is a source code editor.

Im tired of conversation where I need to repeat myself every few posts, you should go back and read what I said.

Its also obvious you dont have any comprehension how modding works outside bare bones modding of DOTA2.
 

Khorne

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You mean like Nexus is filled with malware, oh wait.
Wait what? Nexus was filled with malware and questionable middleware since it was created until the point someone cleaned up the malware about 5 or 6 years ago.

Its also obvious you dont have any comprehension how modding works outside bare bones modding of DOTA2.

I comprehend enough of your dribble to figure out you're depending on GUI tools to change parameters the script extender crew put in place for you to change, and expect a reward for your efforts.
You haven't written a single line of shellcode in your life, and couldn't compile a library if your life depended on it, just like 99% of nexus userbase.

That is why you can't see the difference between a mod and a hat, and also why you get nervous when someone calls the water wet.
 

markec

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Wait what? Nexus was filled with malware and questionable middleware since it was created until the point someone cleaned up the malware about 5 or 6 years ago.

So young fan site at launch has problems that in your opinion a big company could never have, problems that were dealth with years ago. So what exactly is your point here?

I comprehend enough of your dribble to figure out you're depending on GUI tools to change parameters the script extender crew put in place for you to change, and expect a reward for your efforts.
You haven't written a single line of shellcode in your life, and couldn't compile a library if your life depended on it, just like 99% of nexus userbase.

That is why you can't see the difference between a mod and a hat, and also why you get nervous when someone calls the water wet.

What the hell are you babbling about. What reward do I expect, for what? Did we just went to a bizzaro world where everything is upside down and It wasnt me who was arguing that modding should not be monetized and I recall you saying that modding communities crashing and burning was a small price for modders to earn few bucks.

Also last time I checked I was trying to explain to you that there is a difference between creating hats for DOTA2 and major complex mods for games like Skyrim.

At this point I assume Im being trolled here, because no matter how bad my english is no way any sane person could have such lack reading comprehension.
 

Khorne

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bethestard.png
 

Khorne

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Drax rated your post retadred in the thread Vapourware Steam is (NO LONGER) charging for mods now lmao.
5:57 PM
Drax rated your post retadred in the thread Vapourware Steam is (NO LONGER) charging for mods now lmao.
5:57 PM
Drax rated your post Disagree in the thread Vapourware Steam is (NO LONGER) charging for mods now lmao.
5:56 PM
Drax rated your post retadred in the thread Vapourware Steam is (NO LONGER) charging for mods now lmao.
5:52 PM
Drax rated your post Disagree in the thread Vapourware Steam is (NO LONGER) charging for mods now lmao.
5:51 PM
You sure you don't want to rate every post in my history and call for reddit brigade?
Grow the fuck up Drax.
 

Drax

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Drax rated your post retadred in the thread Vapourware Steam is (NO LONGER) charging for mods now lmao.
5:57 PM
Drax rated your post retadred in the thread Vapourware Steam is (NO LONGER) charging for mods now lmao.
5:57 PM
Drax rated your post Disagree in the thread Vapourware Steam is (NO LONGER) charging for mods now lmao.
5:56 PM
Drax rated your post retadred in the thread Vapourware Steam is (NO LONGER) charging for mods now lmao.
5:52 PM
Drax rated your post Disagree in the thread Vapourware Steam is (NO LONGER) charging for mods now lmao.
5:51 PM
You sure you don't want to rate every post in my history and call for reddit brigade?
Grow the fuck up Drax.
How the fuck is that my fault?
Stop being retarded, it's not that hard.
 

Khorne

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How the fuck is that my fault?
Stop being retarded, it's not that hard.
Didn't say it was your fault, but you shouldn't be concerned about my health, I'm straight as an arrow.
Perhaps not as politically correct, but technically I'm just fine.
It's possible I went a bit too far with contradiction to provoke a conflict.
 

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