Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Strategy games where the AI doesn't cheat?

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,506
Lightknight said:
Try the Master of mana mod for Civ4
Its an amazingly deep game and the creator has written an extremely good AI.
How can it possibly have good AI ? They mashed together twice as much random shit as FFH did, and none of it is even documented ! There are way, way too many options, its simply impossible to expect an AI that can actually use them with any degree of competentness.

Easily. AI is easy to do for a complex game. When a game had a lot of interconnecting variables, players are screwed and can't play optimally. While AI doesn't need to play optimally either, it can handle that load of stuff much more easily. Look at normal players, when they are pressed from multiple front, they are screwed. When theirs attacks are preempted, theirs tactic goes out. When normal players would need a long term strategy, they are unable to do it properly.
 

Zeus

Cipher
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
1,523
4X games have so many troops, resources, in some cases spells, technology trees, etc., I can see how it'd be a challenge to program decent AI (as opposed to something like a card game, where terrain and space isn't a factor, or a tactical strategy game, where there's only tactical combat.) So imagine if there was a much smaller scale board. You'd still explore and expand, but only to a limited number of hexes, with perhaps room for five towns (planets, etc.) per empire before things got nasty. Get rid of tech trees, limit the number of troops to a manageable amount (six or so). I love tactical combat, but it's easy to exploit, so that goes too. In other words, strip down 4X to its bare minimum and see if the AI can handle it.
 

Destroid

Arcane
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
16,628
Location
Australia
Zeus said:
4X games have so many troops, resources, in some cases spells, technology trees, etc., I can see how it'd be a challenge to program decent AI (as opposed to something like a card game, where terrain and space isn't a factor, or a tactical strategy game, where there's only tactical combat.) So imagine if there was a much smaller scale board. You'd still explore and expand, but only to a limited number of hexes, with perhaps room for five towns (planets, etc.) per empire before things got nasty. Get rid of tech trees, limit the number of troops to a manageable amount (six or so). I love tactical combat, but it's easy to exploit, so that goes too. In other words, strip down 4X to its bare minimum and see if the AI can handle it.

That's called GalCiv. Part of the design was anything the AI couldn't hand didn't make the cut. It turned out to have no soul, but I guess it didn't have to be that way.

There is also a pretty big difference between a 4x game and a 4x simulator. I believe games like MoO2 and Paradox games had AIs designed to act like actual alien empires, or as historical empires, rather than game opponents. Humans when placed in such an AI environment have a vast advantage as we almost invariably game the system.
 

DakaSha

Arcane
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,792
Lightknight said:
Try the Master of mana mod for Civ4
Its an amazingly deep game and the creator has written an extremely good AI.
How can it possibly have good AI ? They mashed together twice as much random shit as FFH did, and none of it is even documented ! There are way, way too many options, its simply impossible to expect an AI that can actually use them with any degree of competentness.

What does documentation have to do with AI? Thats right. Nothing.
What does many options have to do with AI? Thats right. Nothing.
The game is written around the AI. Things that the AI can't handle get changed/removed. You would be surprised at what the AI can do with the magic system. Also uses equipment etc. (I'm not an expert at the game or anything but the AI does seem to do a damn good job with spells and crap.. pretty cool)

Is it stellar? No. No AI is. But it is by far the best Civ4 mod AI and *possibly* the best 4x AI I've encountered. Thats pushing it though.

FFH AI was so ass that i never even played it. This guy actually knows what hes doing.

There are 2 things though:
1) Some nations play so radically different the AI may not even choose them. It's only a few but is pretty gay and i hope it gets changed
2) No naval AI yet.. But really this is just because the vanilla naval AI is worthless anyways. Next version is supposed to have it

(edit: Also the AI can make some dumb tactical decisions.. typical of any AI.. Isn't an excuse though. I'd like to see the AI not attack cities with hunters :P )

Still not a perfect AI but def better then most (yes thats not saying much). It will beat an intermediate player on a fairly low setting. (prince/monarch)

felicity said:
Civ4's AI is shit. Seriously no 4x has good AI. Not GalCiv, Dom3, MoM, HoMM, AoW, AC... etc. NONE.

If you want good AI look for card games like RftG as someone mentioned, or chess-like SRPG like Vantage Master. You will be surprised.

The Civ4 AI is completely moddible. It isnt the same AI as in vanilla Civ4, which is shit.
I'm the one who mentioned rftg and it will whip your fucking ass. At least if you suck as much as i do. I heard that a good player will win only about 1/3 times against it.

Btw your older thread about good AI's is actually what made me join. I too have been looking for a long ass time for good strat games with non cheating AI's. Right now i have to play games and make up some LARP shit to explain the crap AI :-/

And i cant get into vantage master sadly
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,506
DakaSha said:
The problem with AE as far as i could tell in the couple games i played was crap like demolitions/espionage was way to overpowered. And as a human you make better use of it
I took out an enemy base before turn 10 or maybe 15 once. thats when i quit playing.

The thing is the AI actually knows how to use the mechanics. The designer is a fag for saying he programmed in the boneheaded mistakes on purpous for realism sake.


I seen Machine empire to take enemy HQ at turn 15. I also seen an attempt to take my hive at turn 5.
AI for AE can be fairly brutal when properly written. But, AE has been written in language which is basically a scripted language, it's slow as it's. Creating anything much more drastic would only increase thinking time from 30 sec (on C2D capable of running Xenosaga at playable speeds in SW mode) to several mins. Improving combat system (speeding it up) and slightly modifying some rules to be more realistic, and feel more right, would be more efficient.

AE needs several different AIs. Not one generics. He actually created these decks with some AI specific info inside, so he did part stuff right. But he doesn't look like he had much experience with writing proper smart AI, or with psychomodeling. However he uses goal driven AI, which is actually one of most efficient ways how to do stuff like this.

Zeus said:
4X games have so many troops, resources, in some cases spells, technology trees, etc., I can see how it'd be a challenge to program decent AI (as opposed to something like a card game, where terrain and space isn't a factor, or a tactical strategy game, where there's only tactical combat.) So imagine if there was a much smaller scale board. You'd still explore and expand, but only to a limited number of hexes, with perhaps room for five towns (planets, etc.) per empire before things got nasty. Get rid of tech trees, limit the number of troops to a manageable amount (six or so). I love tactical combat, but it's easy to exploit, so that goes too. In other words, strip down 4X to its bare minimum and see if the AI can handle it.

I wrote a few examples how making AI for a game where there is large number of units is actually easier and produce more harsh result. And then you wrote this...
c
Using smaller space will NOT help AI, the player would be able to remember all these places more easily than AI.

Using less units would mean any unit lost by AI would be harsh loss.
No tech trees would mean no different behavior, no different long term strategies, and the game would be bland.
 

DakaSha

Arcane
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,792
Oh look it's the guy who claims he could write an unbeatable AI for AE xD
 

Destroid

Arcane
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
16,628
Location
Australia
AE AI was pathetic, never lost a game even while I was learning. It varied from 'put up an ok fight' to 'rolled over and died'.

EDIT: Wait I think I already wrote that in this thread but forgot.
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,506
DakaSha said:
Oh look it's the guy who claims he could write an unbeatable AI for AE xD
I said hard to beat.

AI is screwed by limited hand and limited resources even more than player. (Giving AI bonus resources will NOT help.)
 

DakaSha

Arcane
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,792
I could write AI that would be extraordinarily hard to beat, however would anyone play it when they would be losing regularly? Also I would need to hack these adobe director files, and I hate moding.

r00fels
 

BattleGoat

Novice
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
25
Hey, I gotta chime in on this one. Sorry for reviving an older thread...

I can add three to the list;

- Supreme Ruler 2010
- Supreme Ruler 2020
- Supreme Ruler Cold War

The players and AIs are subject to all the same rules. The campaigns/scenarios may script in a few key events at certain points (more in the SR-CW where there is a campaign story we try and move along) but there are no attack bonuses/extra vision/better output of X or anything like that.
 

Renegen

Arcane
Joined
Jun 5, 2011
Messages
4,062
The AI in Settlers 7 doesn't cheat. It only is really good.

The AI in Galactic Civilizations (1 and 2, but 1 mostly) is amazing. While it can cheat on higher difficulty levels, overall it never feels cheap. Quite the contrary, the AI will give you some of the finest strategy experiences ever.
 

kasmas

Educated
Joined
Jan 5, 2011
Messages
111
BattleGoat said:
Hey, I gotta chime in on this one. Sorry for reviving an older thread...

I can add three to the list;

- Supreme Ruler 2010
- Supreme Ruler 2020
- Supreme Ruler Cold War

The players and AIs are subject to all the same rules. The campaigns/scenarios may script in a few key events at certain points (more in the SR-CW where there is a campaign story we try and move along) but there are no attack bonuses/extra vision/better output of X or anything like that.

He is right

Transport Tycoon 's AI does not cheat too .
 

Renegen

Arcane
Joined
Jun 5, 2011
Messages
4,062
I played a lot of AE and I don't see how anyone can say the game is easy. The dice rolls can be so viciously against you, the cards can be against you, the starting position can be against you, the wondering tribes can be against you, the initiative can be against you, that sometimes you will lose brutally. I've had the most insane unlucky events happen to me.

The game plays like a boardgame more than a video game, which I like. You sometimes win, sometimes lose, but it's not the only focus of the game.
 

DakaSha

Arcane
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,792
Renegen said:
I played a lot of AE and I don't see how anyone can say the game is easy. The dice rolls can be so viciously against you, the cards can be against you, the starting position can be against you, the wondering tribes can be against you, the initiative can be against you, that sometimes you will lose brutally. I've had the most insane unlucky events happen to me.

The game plays like a boardgame more than a video game, which I like. You sometimes win, sometimes lose, but it's not the only focus of the game.

No shit. And it can be the other way around as well.
Its a game with a shitty AI that is sometimes challenging due to bad luck. The programmer lies about making the AI do boneheaded shit on purpous to make it more realistic.
What a faggot
 

gp1628

Novice
Joined
Jun 2, 2011
Messages
27
Location
Vacaville, CA
The AI in Dominions 3 doesnt cheat.
If you set the AI for a difficulty above normal then it does get more creation points than you do, but I wouldnt call that cheating. And it feels like it cheats when it declares war on you but there is usually a reason. Scout reports finding you nearby, or your ranking on the scoreboards.

On the other hand, you have to put up with the fact that your own commanders might decide not to do what you script them to do. Also for a reason but its still irritating.

The vanilla AI opponents dont seem very smart. Because in vanilla mode it allows for maximum surprise by being totally random in its nation creation. It can take scales and settings which surprise you but it can also take settings which kill it before you even reach it. However there are maps and mods which improve the AI far beyond vanilla. After years with this game I still enjoy solo mode.
 

TNO

Augur
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
452
Location
UK
The AI in SMAC cheats but only (IIRC) at the highest two difficulty levels where it gets free discounts to production costs. Thinker difficulty, I believe, put you at an entirely 'level playing field' with the AIs. I only play on Transcend :)obviously:), so I don't know whether other stuff, like the free techs gifted to factions when you get too far ahead apply on lower difficulties.

That said, the AI in SMAC is reasonable to challenge beginners to strategy games, but you can easily spank thinker (or Transcend) ironman. The AI is diplomatically savvy (rocking up a transport near a poorly defended base, extorting techs, then attacking anyway), and has a couple of good tricks (sending packs of aircraft to spank outlying bases) but has several problems:

  • Inability to terraform competently.
    Inability to pop boom. (This one is massive - when you start running democratic/planned/creches you will streak ahead. More people = more everything = more winning)
    Inability to send any impressive sea invasion (one transport with contents periodically no challenge. When you get air, you can pick them off at sea).
    Seemingly never 'rushes' secret projects, allowing you to pip the AI to the post despite it getting the tech several turns earlier.
    Poor land combat AI (works a bit mid game with artillery, but you can sweep off any early game faction with a rush to impact rovers - late game combat in SMAC involves sending armadas of helicopters to kill everything and dropping troops in the city).

These problems are partly due to mildly unbalanced games (pop boom and choppers are IMBA), but also to poor AI. Although I haven't had the chance, I gather SMAC multiplayer is basically the best 4X experience ever.[/list]
 

DakaSha

Arcane
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,792
gp1628 said:
The AI in Dominions 3 doesnt cheat.
If you set the AI for a difficulty above normal then it does get more creation points than you do, but I wouldnt call that cheating. And it feels like it cheats when it declares war on you but there is usually a reason. Scout reports finding you nearby, or your ranking on the scoreboards.

On the other hand, you have to put up with the fact that your own commanders might decide not to do what you script them to do. Also for a reason but its still irritating.

The vanilla AI opponents dont seem very smart. Because in vanilla mode it allows for maximum surprise by being totally random in its nation creation. It can take scales and settings which surprise you but it can also take settings which kill it before you even reach it. However there are maps and mods which improve the AI far beyond vanilla. After years with this game I still enjoy solo mode.

Gandalf thats a load of shit. The game itself tells you that it gives gold and recource bonuses. The AI doesnt seem very smart because it is SHIT. It has nothing to do with 'random surprise element'. Its just shit. It pics random scales and magic paths in a game where random scales can mean (as you put it yourself) death before you even reach them.
I love dominions 3 but its computer opponent cheats and is STILL incredibly easy to beat on impossible (as long as you survive the first turns the ai sends armies 5x the size of yours due to said cheating)

People dont even fall for the bias you show for the AI on the shrapnel forums (which is full of dom3 fanboys). It is generally accepted that the AI is trash.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
7,269
Renegen said:
The AI in Galactic Civilizations (1 and 2, but 1 mostly) is amazing. While it can cheat on higher difficulty levels, overall it never feels cheap. Quite the contrary, the AI will give you some of the finest strategy experiences ever.

You fucking liar.
 

DakaSha

Arcane
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,792
GalCiv 2's AI was better then many if not most AI's but it was WAY OVERHYPED. It still did some of the most braindead shit ive ever seen (and some factions are just plain broken) and it was easy as hell to beat on the highest non cheating level
 

coldcrow

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
1,650
I'd also advertise M.A.X. and Master of Mana. The latter one is shaping up nicely, if you follow the beta versions and as of latest relatively bugfree for a mod as heavy in scripting as this.

Apparently some dudes on the MIT wrote a freeciv AI which is kicking ass.

Also I want to know what the guy who was advertising Microprose:MTG's AI was smoking. The AI of that game is so broken it doesn't even know what to do most of the time. With a fanpatch it ascends into the realm of dominions 3 AI, which means it is at least functional.

In addition what is Raghar smoking, too? More complex game = easier to program AI?. Totally reductionist argument, if any at all.
I will present an example which seem to udnerline thats statement first: Go/Chess: Chess is "apparently" more complex since it has different pieces + rules for them. Go has only one piece and several rules handling it. Chess AI was way more developed for along time, lately the GO AI is catching up tho. this is due to emphasis on pattern recognition in GO - larger board + only one piece = alot of positions to be claculated. Chess positions have an easier to identify structure (pawn pos, king pos, etc). The chess AI improved alot not only due to increased computing power but mostly due to advanced evaluation routines written or adviced by chess masters.
But at the end it is just what WE call complex actually the larger GO board and one piece means that GO is more "complex".
What this means: You find kickass AIs mostly for games with a low possibilities count. Card games, easier board games (settlers of catan for example) and so on.

The example of the complex master of mana was totally bogus: it still is about the player to learn the rules (eceonomy, units, spells etc) and then formulate a clear strategy. the AI often cannot do that since it has to be programmed with may possibilities in mind leading to somewhat universal but often less efficient approaches.
 

gp1628

Novice
Joined
Jun 2, 2011
Messages
27
Location
Vacaville, CA
DakaSha said:
Gandalf thats a load of shit. The game itself tells you that it gives gold and recource bonuses. The AI doesnt seem very smart because it is SHIT. It has nothing to do with 'random surprise element'. Its just shit. It pics random scales and magic paths in a game where random scales can mean (as you put it yourself) death before you even reach them.
I love dominions 3 but its computer opponent cheats and is STILL incredibly easy to beat on impossible (as long as you survive the first turns the ai sends armies 5x the size of yours due to said cheating)

People dont even fall for the bias you show for the AI on the shrapnel forums (which is full of dom3 fanboys). It is generally accepted that the AI is trash.

Bullshit. Obviously you are talking from the forum you espouse which is full of multiplayers. The game supports more solo players than MPers so the AI must have something going for it. Most MPers train for MP by playing their test games with the Independents set way high, which trashes the AI. For best AI test you have to play with Indepts low. Then see if the AI doesnt do better.

As far as cheating, it depends on your point of view. I dont consider the AI starting out with bonuses to getting bonuses to be cheating. Its just another game balance like each of the nations getting a special ability. AI gets gold and resource boost. In fact, many of the soloers say to turn the resource, gold, supply settings higher for improving the AI.

In most game programming forums the concept of the AI cheating refers to the AI using knowledge that the player doesnt have. Its very easy to let the AI cheat in order to make it better. The AI is part of the game program, so anything the game knows the AI also knows. Getting an AI to act only on AI knowledge such as finding out where the enemy is or who is in the lead is very difficult. Thats usually the programmers definition of non-cheating AI. Acting on player level information.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom