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Fallout Tell me about Tell Me About

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A text parser has to be simple enough for game designers, writers, and localizers to interact with, but none of these groups have even a basic level of technical competency. Try explaining regular expressions to your average dangerhair on Twitter, and you'll start to see the problem.
 

Nutria

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Strap Yourselves In
If you let any character tell you about anything else in the game then the need for writing will expand exponentially as you make the game bigger. Maybe stick to something like an encyclopedia that you can search for key words so that it's only one source.
 

laclongquan

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Fallout3 and Fallout New Vegas reduce the complexity in topics somewhat, but their voiced dialog system limit this feature become possible.

Why would it limit it? You could simply have all the existing dialogue in NV activated via the text parser. The only problem would be avoid Sierra tier frustration by lots of playtesting.

People who are familiar with voiced dialog complain most bitterly and skyhigh when they encounter non-voiced dialog. You can witness that among Nexus boards.

Official studio devs CAN NOT take that level of complaining. And to do so much voice over for all those text in Tell me about, that would drive cost so much. So to save themselves trouble, they just cut that feature.

Also, think about who you are dealing with. Fallout 3's devs, in particularly the writing aspect, is insufficient for that level of details. Fallout New Vegas' developers are limited to what they can do, because they were doing an expansion.
 

Flying Dutchman

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"Tell Me About" becomes an annoying guessing game of "guess the mind of a developer."

And when you guess a word right, what's your reward?

Well, your reward IS when you guess a word right, you then add it to a long list of words you have to excruciatingly ask every single person in the game.

If you're asking what an NPC does in Sci-Fi City 3000, do you say Job? Do you say Work? Do you say Career? Oh wait, it turns out "Work" means you're looking for work! Oh, discovery! That's the 'key word' to get new quests, I wish I'd ask the other 33 people in other locations the same thing, might as well trudge back and see if you missed anything!

It's like an Adventure Game, but even less fun. Glad that died on the shelf.
 

Goral

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I've been saying for years that it's one of the best features and that it should be reintroduced to RPGs.

You could learn some VERY interesting things that way, first time I did that and it worked I was blown away. Developers don't do that any more because not many people were smart enough to use it and notice hidden content. But this wasn't just a cool feature, it could be very useful and it's plain to see that creators took the effort to polish it. For example you could have written "angels" or "angel's" and you would get the same answer, same goes for caravan/caravans, etc. What's more, Aradesh didn't know about Master and Rhombus didn't know about Vault 13 which was logical. Trying to find out what they knew and making educated guesses was part of the fun for me but today we have all the answers and just click on them. Consolization is way too common nowadays and keyboard is used much too rarely.

If you're asking what an NPC does in Sci-Fi City 3000, do you say Job? Do you say Work? Do you say Career? Oh wait, it turns out "Work" means you're looking for work! Oh, discovery! That's the 'key word' to get new quests, I wish I'd ask the other 33 people in other locations the same thing, might as well trudge back and see if you missed anything!
It actually was done well in Fallout and synonyms would work. And after a while you could see patterns and make educated guesses which words/questions work and which don't. Writing "sex" was obviously pointless and it's on a retarded player for asking a retarded question. Of course some valid questions were also neglected but that's to be expected and all in all this feature greatly improved roleplaying experience.
 

dumbuglyorc

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Aradesh didn't know about Master and Rhombus didn't know about Vault 13 which was logical.

Yeah, and none of the people in the Fallout world knew anything about their friends, neighbors, coworkers or family members either. Or about the establishment they worked at, the bars they haunted, or the city they lived in. Hell, they generally didn't even know anything about topics they had just raised themselves during the conversation you were currently having with them. It sure was real logical.

I did love it though, but I always was a sucker for all kinds of text parsers.
 

Goral

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Yeah, and none of the people in the Fallout world knew anything about their friends, neighbors, coworkers or family members either.
That's simply not true. If you've asked Aradash about Tandi he would answer you (same goes for Tandi about Aradesh) but of course you couldn't ask Rhombus if he has a hot sister, why would you?

As for "establishments they worked in" that also not true, you could ask Killian about his store, Gizmo about his casino or Butch about traders and they would all answer. Of course you can't ask anyone about everything but that's to be expected. There were many places and people you could ask about and learn things earlier than you normally would thanks to thinking outside the box.

Complaining about "tell me about" button is just retarded, if you want dialogue trees only you can do that and never touch that button but if you have double digit IQ you can see not only some interesting "flavour" but learn some useful things too.

Nowadays RPGs have either "Yes"/"No"/"I don't know" options or something like in New Vegas/Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines where we're getting labels to each response so that we would know that it was supposed to be a persuasion (in VtMB it's better implemented), e.g. in Gibson Scrapeyard in F:NV the persuasion option looks like this:
""But you're going to cut the price to 250 because I'm just that charming, right?"
lol

The game that did it best (i.e. persuasion looked like persuasion) is Age of Decadence but it's still not as interesting as asking abut things yourself.

P.S.
Vince / Vault Dweller has written a great article about this: http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=414

Vince said:
One day I decided to write an article about RPG dialogue systems. I showed it to Gareth Fouche, the talented Scars of War developer, who immediately canceled his dinner plans and started throwing ideas around, tweaking, editing, and rewriting. Without further ado, I present you with our joint effort to explore the dialogue subject.

* * *​
In the beginning there was The Premise. And the Premise was good, because it said unto gamers "Lo! There is this bad guy over there! Verily, thou shouldst go to his castle, slaughter him and his staff and take anything that isn't nailed down!". And gamers did rejoice muchly, for they were rather fond of killing and looting.

But, over time, some gamers did begin to feel dissatisfaction. For, as enjoyable as slaughter and mayhem was, it lacked something. Something vital. A pat on the head. A "Good job, laddy". A gold star for effort. What use, the touchdown, without the crowd to roar its approval?

So the gods of game design put their heads together and came up with a plan. Games would now have stories, they declared. The story of the Chosen One, who was chosen to slaughter his way through the game world under the guidance of a host of simpleminded back-patting NPCs, characters who would constantly praise and congratulate the player for the simplest of tasks. To bring this wondrous plan to life would require new techniques, new methods for communication. Something more complex than the simple grunts and screams of the slain.

And gamers did rejoice again, for much ego stroking ensued. Now one couldn't walk 5 minutes through an RPG without stumbling across Bob the Peasant, whose favourite hat had been stolen by 15 heavily armed thugs, or a lazy blacksmith in need of someone to go across the street and fetch him a drink. And every time the player completed these mini-plots they would be rewarded, both with glowing praise and powerful equipment. A veritable kings ransom of mithril platemail, flaming swords and potent, lightning-wreathed staves; rewards suitable for the Brave Hero Who Went Across The Road And Fetched Back A Meat Pie.

But again there arose a problem. For now that characters in the world could speak to the player, the player expected to be able to talk back to them. As game worlds had become ever more expansive, important questions had arisen. Questions such as "Which way to the weapon shop, I need to sell all these spare swords I found lying around.", "Have you seen 15 large men and a hat anywhere around here?" and "Which way to the bad guy's super-secret fortress?" These were the burning questions that players desired to ask, but the simple "Please fetch my cat from the tree: Yes/No" lively banter of the time didn't support such deep conversation. So, taking a page from the adventure game genre, which at the time was still alive and kicking instead of a comatose husk, RPG designers introduced the concept of asking NPCs for information on Keywords. Now the player could collect Keywords just as they collected shiny baubles, and ask the characters they met about them.

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Wehrheim sounds like a very progressive place. I should definitely visit it.
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Wizardry 8 stands as perhaps the pinnacle of this type of design, combining several intuitive interfaces allowing you to truly *interact* with NPCs. Typing in a keyword or simply clicking on any word in an NPC's lines adds it to the communication "where is / talk about" interface and allows you to discuss this subject with NPCs. If you think this topic is important, you can easily add this word to the keywords list. You can remove and sort your keywords, avoiding the mess of earlier systems.

The "action" interface gives you the option to threaten or be nice, to attack, trade, pickpocket, recruit, or use magic such as charms or mind reading on NPCs. The palette of choices open to the player was vast. However, this breadth comes at the expense of depth of discourse.

"You there! Simple farmer type! Tell me everything you know about hats! What? You don't know anything about that topic? Playing coy, eh? Well let's see how coy you are with a sword up your arse!"

The example above shows the weakness of the Keyword system. As powerful a tool as it is for allowing players to probe for information, it is poor at conveying shades of subtle meaning in the player's interactions. Was the farmer merely clueless about the nature of head wear in general? Or were his motives more sinister? Was he part of a secret hat-worshiping cult, one which had taken Bob's hat so as to worship it in their secret underground shrine to all things head-covering? A single word struggles to convey the extra meaning and context of an entire sentence, no matter how threateningly you say the word "hat".

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This desire for more complex shades of meaning resulted in dialogue trees, trees whose delicious textual fruits would serve as the mainstay of RPG gamer diets for over a decade, through to the modern era. Attempting to imitate natural conversation flow, dialogue trees offer the same back and forth discourse one would expect from another human being. The power of strong writing to convey tone and subtlety opened doors for whole ranges of previously impossible or infeasible interaction with characters. Combined with scripting, skill checks, and text adventure elements this system offers incredible flexibility for a cheap price, the cost of a few written lines. Perhaps no finer example of such power and flexibility exists than Planescape: Torment. Here is an RPG whose deep dialogues enable the player to do more than simply talk to characters, they can interact with them through the medium of text. The dialogue became an adventure, a game, in and of itself. Nestled within it were puzzles, scripted events, even character development. Want to break someone's neck? Cut some stitches on a zombie and see what's inside? Catch a thief when he's picking your pocket? Replace your eyeball with an eye you found in a jar? Tinker with your equipment? All these were achievable thanks to dialogue trees and skilled writing.

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Not only can dialogue trees contain new gameplay, they can frame existing gameplay in an entirely new manner. The alternative dialogues for stupid characters in Fallout or Arcanum, the insane wit of the Malkavian Clan in Vampire: Bloodlines, both cast the gameplay and character interactions in their respective games in entirely new light. So much so that they can make two playthroughs of the same game seem entirely different, greatly enhancing role-playing and replayability.

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However, while dialogue trees are potent tools, their strengths are also their weaknesses. Each line of text can convey a highly specific meaning, but the player is limited to only those meanings. It's impossible to think of and write about every possible response, reflecting every possible skill, background, emotion and tone for every response. No more could a player "ask NPC about X". The design had shifted the initiative from the player to the designer. As long as one stayed within the boundaries of the dialogue as written by the designer, everything was groovy. But those boundaries are tightly defined, impossible to break.

This system also places huge strain on a designer, for he has to cater for as many possible player reactions as possible. Torment offered tremendous depth to the player, but the cost was nearly half a dozen full novels worth of written text. A labor of love, but strenuous labor nonetheless. And in the hands of the less talented, those boundaries becomes straight-jackets, tying the player to awful, poorly written prose, causing them to long for the days when they could simply ask "Where is [hat]?" As powerful as dialogue trees are, they represent a dead end, or rather an area of ever decreasing gain in return for ever increasing effort. As with artwork and pretty graphics, increasing the amount of content requires exponentially increasing amounts of writing labor. With finite timelines and finite resources, writers are forced to cater for a few broad options which they hope can satisfy the most common options players might select.

Despite this fact, some of the greatest role playing games of our times have relied on dialogue trees as one of their pillars of gameplay. Fallout, Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate and Knight of the Old Republic games, Arcanum, Bloodlines, Mask of the Betrayer, all these titles rely on dialogue trees to shape the experience.

Aware of this limitation, designers have attempted to return some of the initiative to players via Combined-type dialogue systems but the results are generally poor. These systems are simply attempts to put multiple dialogue techniques into the game. Some games have attempted to combine the power of dialogue trees with the ability for the player to ask questions via a Keyword system. While this can work, partially, there tends to be a strong sense of disconnection. The contrast between the more realistic flowing dialogue trees and the simpler Keyword responses tend to jar the player a bit. Additionally, one system tends to end up overpowering the other. Although there have been a few experiments in this direction most have them haven't been hugely successful in combining the strengths of two or more systems. How many people actually even remember that Fallout had a keyword system as well as the dialogue trees? And, after the 5th time of clicking on "Rumors" in Oblivion, the novelty of hearing that the Fighters Guild is recruiting wears off.

While combined systems have, seemingly, failed to make a lasting impression, there have been experiments in other ways to solve the problem of introducing dynamism to conversation without re-introducing the issues of keywords. Taking a page from more casual games, like the Sims, some designers have tried experimenting with symbolic communication. In games such as the Sims, you don't choose specific dialogue. You choose tones and actions. Since these are simple, symbolic concepts like "laugh", "insult" and "shun" instead of true language, it is easier for the designer to build rules for interactions which can be combined by players into more complex interactions than dialogue trees.

However, the introduction of such systems into RPGs has been somewhat stillborn. Symbolic interactions lack the deeper meaning and subtlety of dialogue trees, re-introducing the weakness of Keywords, the weakness that dialogue trees were adopted in order to circumvent. In Fable you may have been able to perform a set series of symbolic actions on NPCs but each of these lacked the emotional weight of true speech. Especially when compared to the spoken speech in the actual dialogue, these actions seem superficial, weak. The system of variable manipulation behind it stands out in stark contrast, such as the persuasion mini-game in Oblivion. While a skilled writer could write a plausible dialogue that took the character through an emotional roller coaster of flattery, boasting, jests and intimidating comments, to sit and select each in turn from a menu gui robs the concept of any credulity.

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Some have attempted, once again, to create a combination system. Dialogue trees, but ones which allow you to choose the tone with which you deliver the response. Bard's Tale, with its Snarky or Nice options, Mass Effect with its persuasion wheel and the upcoming Alpha Protocol which offers you a choice of professional/suave/aggressive secret agent archetype. The problem with such systems is that, being built on dialogue trees, they offer little extra flexibility in the best case, and in the worse actually surprise the player with a response completely outside their expectations. Sure, you selected the "insulting tone" option. But you never intended to whip out you pistol, push it to his head and instigate a bar fight. The problem is, like Keywords, Tones and Actions are very broad categories. A lot could be considered to fit within the category "insulting tone". However, unlike Keywords, since Dialogue Trees with Tones are still really just dialogue trees, they don't actually offer the added flexibility of a pure symbolic system such as the sims. You can't get dynamic conversations out of such a system. Taken with the fact that they can result in the player being surprised by what his or her own character says or does, a jarring state which goes counter to engendering a sense of "taking on a role", hybrid systems like this really don't seem worth it, unless your goal is to simplify and streamline for audiences who don't like to read, or save space on TV screens that could be better used for cool camera angles and more bloom.

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A better option for the tone system is in combination with the Keyword system. Instead of just asking about a topic and getting a response, you can ask about that keyword in a certain tone. This, based on the NPC's opinion of you, your manner of speech, and the topic, could result in different responses. Daggerfall, with its attempts at dynamically generated conversations, tried this method, although they didn't exploit its full potential. In fact, Daggerfall's generated dialogue represents perhaps the best chance for advancing the state of RPG dialogue systems. Combining generated dialogue with carefully written text, in the same way that the Diablo games combine randomly generated environments with set pieces, could result in the holy grail of dialogue systems, one which allows the player to express themselves in a powerful manner while still allowing the designer the ability to carefully convey subtle meaning.

* * *​
While I'm very fond of full dialogue trees, I believe that the keyword system is the foundation of any evolution of RPG dialogue systems. I would certainly be interested to pick up where Sir Tech left off and see what could be done with this concept. The "tone" interface could be easily tied to speech skills and an Arcanum-like disposition system. Same goes for the action interface. Skills like backstab or critical strike can be easily tied to attack options, replacing our "critical strike" dialogue lines. I'd probably add "Small Talk" to get the local info.

For example, currently we have:

You strike up a conversation with the Daratan guards watching the gate. There isn't a lot of traffic these days, so the guards are bored and take full advantage of the opportunity to talk your ear off. You fake genuine interest and skilfully encourage the guards to impress you with their vast knowledge of current affairs, learning that the guards' pay has been cut again, that Flavius, the watch commander, has lost more than he can afford in a game of chance, and that the Imperial Guards are pretentious bastards who think that they are above the law just because they have some kind of fancy mandate.

1. "So, did Flavius pay his debt?"
2. "I can't believe that the guards who risk their lives to protect us all are underpaid! This is the real crime!"
3. "What do the Imperial Guards do anyway?"

With the keywords system, you'd simply explore topics like "Flavius' debt" or "underpaid guards", getting the info you need and then drawing your own conclusions and attempting to bribe the guards. "Bribe" action would allow you to choose an amount and would be tied to a corresponding skill (trading, etiquette, streetwise, whatever). That would probably be more exciting and interesting than picking a line from the list. The outcome would depend on the amount and your skill. Perhaps, a small fortune would be enough to overlook your clumsy attempt, while a more skilled character would be able to convince the guards to accept a modest amount. It's definitely a direction we'd like to explore one day.

 
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Goral

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I've asked Tim Cain who came up with the idea and he said:
Tim Cain said:
I think it was Chris Taylor, but it might have been Scott Campbell. I agree with you that it added a lot to the dialog experience for the player, but some players didn’t enjoy it, feeling like they had to guess exactly what keywords the narrative designers had used, e.g. “mutant” or “supermutant”. It was also a lot of extra work that many (maybe most) players never used.

 

Glop_dweller

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This was certainly not new with Fallout. There are earlier games that use a parser along with the point & click UI. The parser in Les Manly (for instance) could ask questions, and even initiate animated actions by suggesting them, like 'Climb over the fence' resulting in Les grabbing the nearby fence boards, and carefully (visually) climbing over them; transitioning to a new map otherwise impossible to access without telling him to climb over to it.
 

laclongquan

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On the one hand, Tell me about is a huge OP cheat feature that can introduce new info earlier than original plan. Like, if it exist in F2, you can learn about Redding way earlier than by blindly exploring and stumbling over it. or visit Vault City/New Reno and take a caravan to it. (which is why developers dont use it in F2 I imagine).

On the other hand, it need serious info control from writing/plan department to ensure no such oversight and/or quest revelance. In return giving not much gameplay benefit, because frankly even in F1 we sometimes dont use it that much. It's a near hidden mechanic, after all.

It's good shit that devs can afford to do in small game like F1, but impossible to maintain in any bigger game from F2 and more.
 

dumbuglyorc

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Tell me about is a huge OP cheat feature that can introduce new info earlier than original plan.
As the game is hardly on rails, I fail to see how providing alternative paths can be considered cheating. Breaking a sequence never broke Fallout.
 

Egosphere

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They'll bring it back in the future, except it'll be chatgpt lite which will spit out bullshit answers to whatever you ask, with a database of info to formulate correct answers from if you actually ask something pertaining to the game world.
 

dumbuglyorc

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They'll bring it back in the future, except it'll be chatgpt lite which will spit out bullshit answers to whatever you ask, with a database of info to formulate correct answers from if you actually ask something pertaining to the game world.
This done correctly will be very good. All they need to do is give each NPC a short prompt so they know who they are and what they're supposed to know.
Ask.jpg
 

Glop_dweller

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What they need to do is to backchannel much of the dynamic dialog for the nearest / most likely NPCs during walking, conversation, and loading screens, so they can minimize the delay in response time.
 

laclongquan

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Tell me about is a huge OP cheat feature that can introduce new info earlier than original plan.
As the game is hardly on rails, I fail to see how providing alternative paths can be considered cheating. Breaking a sequence never broke Fallout.
I am not talking about Fallout 1 because it's a small game that devs can control the level of info leak through Tell Me About.

I was talking about Fallout 2 if it has Tell Me About active.
+++ As there're several characters who should have known about Redding, like caravan master, hunter squad (slaver guild) in The Den. Chosen One would be able to know about Redding's location and get there, meaning they have an easier time to get access to Vault City.
+++ Same deal, Metzger's minion in the Church supposedly store chemicals imported from Vault City. So they would have known something about Navarro, which is the only logical buyer for that stuffs at that location. Let alone radio traffic at that location might discover Enclave trace, meaning other than Metzer, Vic and the BoS agent there can provide clue about Navarro. An early info leak about Navarro can have serious consequence on F2's strategies, since players have logical reason, with logical data, to go to Navarro and do their usual stuffs.
 

Zanthia

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+++ As there're several characters who should have known about Redding, like caravan master, hunter squad (slaver guild) in The Den. Chosen One would be able to know about Redding's location and get there, meaning they have an easier time to get access to Vault City.
+++ Same deal, Metzger's minion in the Church supposedly store chemicals imported from Vault City. So they would have known something about Navarro, which is the only logical buyer for that stuffs at that location. Let alone radio traffic at that location might discover Enclave trace, meaning other than Metzer, Vic and the BoS agent there can provide clue about Navarro. An early info leak about Navarro can have serious consequence on F2's strategies, since players have logical reason, with logical data, to go to Navarro and do their usual stuffs.

But Redding or Modoc > Vault City are the normal places to head after the Den, so how does that speed anything up? And the closer you get to Navarro, the more Enclave patrols you run into - if you're a low level new player you'd turn yourself back around sharpish and find other towns to level up in. It wouldn't matter if the game pointed you there, there are things that can trip you up like that in FO1 too (the main one I can think of is Necropolis), it's part of the fun.

I'd actually forgotten that FO2 didn't have keywords before reading this thread. I think they just thought they could work that info into the dialogue trees better.
 

laclongquan

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Redding has no location data before Vault City. You stumble across it by exploring blindly southeastward of the Den, practically metagame. The Den--- Modoc ---VC is logical, but The Den --- Redding --- VC is not logical because you dont have clue about Redding.
+++ But if you have clue, The Den -- Redding --VC can be a logical route because there's an area between The Den and Modoc call robber's pass or highwayman's pass which is full of robbers. They can be quite a hazard to a normal Chosen One who dont farm encounter to raise level. I think there's one or two dialog mention this general area.

Same deal as Navarro. The only clue is BoS quest. Otherwise you get there only by metagame, as there are absolutely no reason to explore this way~
 
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In Fo1 this button only frustrated me because i was asking obvious questions and the npcs kept repeating a generic line about not knowing wtf was i talking about.

Good thing in theory, but you'll have to write a fuckton of lines for every random thing the player could ask.
they could implement dynamic AI dialogue in modern games to fix that:

 

Jigby

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Same deal, Metzger's minion in the Church supposedly store chemicals imported from Vault City. So they would have known something about Navarro, which is the only logical buyer for that stuffs at that location.
The buyer if I remember correctly is New Reno. You can ask about it the guy with Anna's locket (Joey?) and he'll give you the New Reno location. I don't think they know who Salvatore deals with.
 
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laclongquan

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The junkie dealer know New Reno, sure. But he's not church gang, innit?

I was implying the leader of the gang standing inside the Church which we can speak on 1 or 2 occasions. He should know because he's the ground-level person who would deal with the buyer. Other than him, Metzger would know something, and Vic too, as he meddle with radio, electronic parts, so he might able to eavedrop on radio traffic.

Although for sure and certain, the BOS guy standing outside of BOS outpost would know about Navarro coming and going this way~
 

Jigby

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My point was that Metzger deals with New Reno, not Navarro. Or is it anywhere implied that he deals directly with Navarro? Also Enclave uses "encrypted" communication (think the communication in the Gecko power plant), I don't think eavesdropping would do much.
 

Johannes

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It's usually bad because you can't know so well about what keywords the devs bothered to write in. So it's an annoying guessing game, like in a text adventure game trying to get the parser command just right for the game to register it.

I remember Nethergate, by Spiderweb Software, had a nice system where the dialogue was basically all about keywords - but on top the usual dialogue window of having icons to click for the basic name/job/etc queries, but when they'd give out a response the text would highlight the words that you can ask more about.
 

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