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The 1999 appreciation thread.

schru

Arcane
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
1,132
I have to wonder, having experienced the graphics, quality of life features, interface, UI / UX and general controls of modern games (admittedly, their biggest strengths, with gameplay and mechanics usually lacking), when you actually boot up one of those old games (which I highly doubt you've done in the past decade), can you honestly tell me you're fully enjoying the experience?

I tried playing Morrowind again very recently. I cannot. I want to but I cannot. Everything about the moment to moment experience is repulsive. It's not just the graphics. The interface and menus are hideous. The animations are nauseating. The jumping and movement over the terrain are retarded. The dice-roll combat in a first-person game is not something I can really put up with in the year 2021.

Again, have you actually install and play those games in the last decade? Are you actually able to enjoy the good parts without paying attention to all the shit that goes along with them?
The technicalities involved in setting up some of the older games and the sometimes awkward interfaces (though this is not infrequently a mistaken impression) can be fairly easily overcome through just a bit of will and concentration. I usually feel overwhelmed by these at first, but I also know that if I overcome that feeling, these things turn out not to be that bothersome at all.

The streamlining and new design trends in interfaces and menus since simultaneous multi-platform releases began to be the preponderant approach haven't resulted in more convenient and smooth experience either as the requirements consoles tend to impose on these things make for highly annoying and tiresome solutions. It's much more preferable to have some idiosyncrasies tailored for specific games and experimental gameplay from back when certain solutions hadn't yet become standard, than to have to deal with the layered, oversized, and cumbrous menus, inventories, and other panels, knowing that they're a compromise imposed in preference to actually improving things in a way that'd be natural for the PC.

As for graphics, first of all it's often important to configure things correctly so that the graphics look the way they were supposed to, which is not always the case when playing on newer systems. And it's simply a fact that older games looked better on C.R.T.s, which can be remedied with special shaders to some extent. Old visuals themselves can look very nice so long as they're taken on their own terms, as the way artists worked around technical limitations usually resulted in interesting visual styles rather than graphics that were simply deficient and awaiting more processing power. Take Doom, Quake, Unreal, or Silent Hill—granted, they're all well above the average, and while there are things that weren't possible to do at such low resolutions, they're all exceedingly good looking and very often superior in visual design when it comes to its gameplay function.

The progress in animation is also a very questionable thing. There are lots of examples of awkward and insufficient quality of animation coupled with highly-detailed graphics, while older, simpler visuals created an abstract feeling where simple animations could convey everything that was necessary in a perfectly satisfactory way. On the other hand, even if technical skill isn't wanting, aiming for highly-detailed realistic graphics leads to difficulties and constraints that become difficult to overcome due to the amount of work required or sheer complexity of the task if the set of movements isn't limited; but then, even if the limitation is intentionally imposed, there can be a palpable disconnect between the superficial realism and the limited array of how things actually interact in the game world.

* * *

I knew of the game before, but I started playing Morrowind only relatively recently and I've enjoyed it immensely. The inventory and character screens could be better, but I don't think the later titles were in any way a straightforward improvement, but rather replaced certain insufficiencies with much more annoying console design. The visuals are actually very nice, though it helps to apply a C.R.T. shader. The movement is quite fine; adding realistic sway and some limitations can have its merits in certain types of games, but the older style of static camera with very precise control over the movement is in itself constitutive of a certain gameplay approach that accords very well with the nature of 3-D environments that don't work as mere decoration, no matter where you try to go, and that approach should be preserved and refined. The combat actually felt more convincing, in the way of an abstraction, than what Bethesda did in the later games and Fallout 3, where the more elaborate animations feel like cheap and superfluous decoration (because they're not going to be as good as in specialized, skill-based games anyway). It was fun in a survival kind of way until my character became too powerful.

Before that, I played Arena, which was simplistic and its interface some ways awkward, but the atmosphere and dungeon design were genuinely memorable. Daggerfall was manageable, though repetitive. Battlespire was an actual chore to play, but still worth it for the atmosphere and certain unusual features. Redguard was a fun action-adventure game.

Other games I played long after their original release and which I thought were either too ‘primitive’ or would be difficult to control, but then found them to be some of the best games ever: Doom (best shooter ever), System Shock (plays better without the mouse mod), Quake, Duke Nukem 3D and the other Build shooters, Deus Ex (my initial impression was that it was ugly and awkward, and I didn't see what was supposed to be good about it).

* * *

All this isn't to say that new games are universally bad, as I think the conditions have gradually started improving and at least diversifying since the trend-setting sway of Xbox 360 and PS3 started waning and digital distribution expanded the independent sector. Nevertheless, it seems like the nineties were a much better period in terms of each platform having its own niche and focus, with dedicated developers and publishers, its being a time of fast increasing technological possibilities that had not yet been squandered on superficialities or lead to work-load problems, the pop culture influencing the games still being a bit more authentic and possessed of some interesting ‘edge’, and the people making the games, at least the ones that are remembered, were more resourceful (considering the lack of standardization and the various creative solutions) and brought in skills and knowledge from other spheres of life, training, or education, before being a game developer became more accessible and turned into its own self-referential field without the benefit of experience and influence from outside.
 

Lemming42

Arcane
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
6,157
Location
The Satellite Of Love
Since this is now a thread about whether or not people overstate the quality of 90s games...

Haven't read the thread in full so apologies if people have already mentioned this, but part of the reason 90s games remain so fun to revisit to this day is because the industry in general had such great momentum to it. Most games being released were low quality derivative clones, as they are today, but it didn't matter - every month, there seemed to be some huge big-hitting release pushing the boundaries of what we thought possible, sometimes even outright inventing new genres. Graphical enhancements were moving so fast that games actually felt technically outdated after under a year.

I'll give Curratum some lukewarm support in agreeing that, taken on their own merits, games today are often as high quality as games from 25 years ago, and I agree with his point about modern quality of life improvements. But following games as a hobby is boring nowadays, I mean, it doesn't feel like we're going anywhere, we're just sort of treading water as a medium. There are still games that come out every now and then that redefine whole genres and invent totally new modes of gameplay, but it's not the thrill-a-minute experience that it was following games back in the 90s. And as a result, I think people are less charitable towards new releases than they ought to be. It was easy to overlook flaws and imperfections in games when the next big thing seemed to be just around the corner, and even a game that wasn't necessarily great might still push tech and design philosophy forwards. Nowadays, a crap game is just a crap game in a sea of crap games.

I wonder how kids who weren't alive in the 90s feel about these older games when they go back and play them. I know that Half-Life is fairly popular with the kiddos (makes sense since it runs easy on new systems and is very accessible and easy to play). Divorced from the context of living through that era, the flaws of the games we consider unassailable classics might become clearer. I'd really like to hear a (non-retarded) Zoomer's perspective on Fallout, preferably one who hasn't played 3/NV beforehand.

EDIT: I'm tired and I realise this post might not make sense, so tl;dr - games in the 90s felt more fun because the hobby of gaming itself was more fun. Games today can be just as good individually, but the hobby is dull and tedious right now, so a good game is just a good game, not part of a wider experience.
 
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Ravielsk

Magister
Joined
Feb 20, 2021
Messages
1,535
But following games as a hobby is boring nowadays, I mean, it doesn't feel like we're going anywhere, we're just sort of treading water as a medium.

This sums up the whole problem in its entirety. In the 90s and early 2000s games were still a actively developing form of media. Logically that means many games from that era are (by todays standards) highly experimental in some ways but that is the necessary price for progress. Generational leaps were not just about bigger pixel counts and better picture quality it was mainly a shift about a complete shift in design philosophy. 3D platformers were not impressive just because they were now in 3D but because they actually utilized the new 3rd dimension to deliver experiences that previously 2D titles could not. Same for any genre really.

Today or I should say since around 2010 everything has been so standardized that a game from 2009 is being paraded as some sort of fresh experience because since that moment no meaningful developments took place in the industry.
 

GrafvonMoltke

Shoutbox Purity League
Shitposter
Joined
Dec 2, 2016
Messages
2,527
Location
Land of the Great Steppe
Urban Chaos is a fantastic game from 1999 that's vastly underappreciated IMO. Semi-open-world action game, GTA 3 before GTA 3. You're a cop and you can go through the whole game without killing anyone since you can KO and cuff enemies, but by the end you'll be shooting them anyway because it's fucking impossible otherwise. Has driving, parkour, everything. Cool as hell. Even has a voiced protagonist who's consistently pretty funny, she mostly just talks shit to people before they inevitably start shooting at her.

Shenmue has to be worth a mention too.

Holy shit I remember that game and its bizarre sense of humour.



That EIDOS noise still makes my peepee hard.
 

SharkClub

Prophet
Patron
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
1,539
Strap Yourselves In
It's not uncommon to come across such low quality posts as Curratum's on the codex but the conviction he puts into saying liking stuff like System Shock 2 is nostalgia goggles while saying Fallout 4 is a great game makes me think he's right for a dumbfuck!! tag. Back to whatever normie forum spawned you, beast.

To the topic, the real reason those games were good and (AAA) games nowadays are shit are the audience they were made for. All you have to do is compare Thief: The Dark Project and Thi4f. Games nowadays are all made for retadred smoothbrain normie dudebros who spend 90% of their salary on FIFA microtransactions, can't make a game too hard or obtuse anymore that it takes more than 5 seconds to get into and appreciate. Every game mechanic must be surface level with no depth to it and it needs an addictive BUTTON AWESOME BUTTON AWESOME gameplay loop to appease their ADHD-addled """"brains"""".
 
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Nutria

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 12, 2017
Messages
2,252
Location
한양
Strap Yourselves In
I think around '99 or so is when teams had gotten to just the right size where you could have good writers, a lot of good artists, good programmers, but not be bloated yet. Now everything is split between these huge AAA games which have to have the most broad appeal possible (and some of these are really good) versus vast numbers of little niche indie projects done by people who 95% of the time just don't have the experience needed to produce them. And it seems like there's a huge gap in the middle where there's no ambitious, innovate games with moderate budgets like you used to see a lot of in the '90s.

On the other hand, at least we don't have literally 50+ Command & Conquer ripoffs in a single year. It's easy to remember how much shit was churned out back then.

when you actually boot up one of those old games (which I highly doubt you've done in the past decade)

covert action 2.jpg
 

octavius

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
19,226
Location
Bjørgvin
I find half the games in the post before mine shit as well, and half the game in the original post are pretty shitty too, but that's just like, my opinion man. And it's worth just as much as your opinion on my list, which is FUCKALL.

You really are some special kind of retards on here to be unable to grasp how simple that is and you really do believe your own bullshit, living in your high ivory towers of good taste. Most of the games you think you love are shit. Most of the games I think I love are shit.

All your memories are tinged by nostalgia and you overestimate how good old games really were.

I've played all the games from 1981 to mid 2001 that I've found worthy, from the CRPG, TSB and FPS genres, and there's no doutb to me that some years were better than others. Granted, with a limited genre I don't get the full picture, but at least I know from personal experience that it's not just nostalgia. Most of the games that were good back then are still good.

It's interesting how this makes you angry.
 

Burning Bridges

Enviado de meu SM-G3502T usando Tapatalk
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
27,562
Location
Tampon Bay
There was always generational changes in software development. The programmers in the 1970s were different than the ones in the 1960. Less disciplined, less knowledgeable, lazier but also more of them.

I think in the 1990s there was a lot of knowledge available that has been lost, assembly language, clever algorithms, also in the artistic department: language and book saviness etc. There was a ton of exciting new technology, object oriented programming, graphic accelerators, new colorful graphic modes, and so on. Today there is more of everything but it isn't so exciting anymore.

But I think it isn't so grim, there are still good games and software. In general, there is a lot more software which makes it feel the quality has decreased.

Also running a computer in the 1990s in many ways was more painful than today, I don't think we are worse off in that regard.
 

Morenatsu.

Liturgist
Joined
May 6, 2016
Messages
2,647
Location
The Centre of the World
Since this is now a thread about whether or not people overstate the quality of 90s games...

Haven't read the thread in full so apologies if people have already mentioned this, but part of the reason 90s games remain so fun to revisit to this day is because the industry in general had such great momentum to it. Most games being released were low quality derivative clones, as they are today, but it didn't matter - every month, there seemed to be some huge big-hitting release pushing the boundaries of what we thought possible, sometimes even outright inventing new genres. Graphical enhancements were moving so fast that games actually felt technically outdated after under a year.

I'll give Curratum some lukewarm support in agreeing that, taken on their own merits, games today are often as high quality as games from 25 years ago, and I agree with his point about modern quality of life improvements. But following games as a hobby is boring nowadays, I mean, it doesn't feel like we're going anywhere, we're just sort of treading water as a medium. There are still games that come out every now and then that redefine whole genres and invent totally new modes of gameplay, but it's not the thrill-a-minute experience that it was following games back in the 90s. And as a result, I think people are less charitable towards new releases than they ought to be. It was easy to overlook flaws and imperfections in games when the next big thing seemed to be just around the corner, and even a game that wasn't necessarily great might still push tech and design philosophy forwards. Nowadays, a crap game is just a crap game in a sea of crap games.

I wonder how kids who weren't alive in the 90s feel about these older games when they go back and play them. I know that Half-Life is fairly popular with the kiddos (makes sense since it runs easy on new systems and is very accessible and easy to play). Divorced from the context of living through that era, the flaws of the games we consider unassailable classics might become clearer. I'd really like to hear a (non-retarded) Zoomer's perspective on Fallout, preferably one who hasn't played 3/NV beforehand.

EDIT: I'm tired and I realise this post might not make sense, so tl;dr - games in the 90s felt more fun because the hobby of gaming itself was more fun. Games today can be just as good individually, but the hobby is dull and tedious right now, so a good game is just a good game, not part of a wider experience.
makes that you're named lemming i guess
 

Morpheus Kitami

Liturgist
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
2,536
I have to wonder, having experienced the graphics, quality of life features, interface, UI / UX and general controls of modern games (admittedly, their biggest strengths, with gameplay and mechanics usually lacking), when you actually boot up one of those old games (which I highly doubt you've done in the past decade), can you honestly tell me you're fully enjoying the experience?

I tried playing Morrowind again very recently. I cannot. I want to but I cannot. Everything about the moment to moment experience is repulsive. It's not just the graphics. The interface and menus are hideous. The animations are nauseating. The jumping and movement over the terrain are retarded. The dice-roll combat in a first-person game is not something I can really put up with in the year 2021.

Again, have you actually install and play those games in the last decade? Are you actually able to enjoy the good parts without paying attention to all the shit that goes along with them?
Exactly what are these quality of life features/interface/etc., in games that you are playing that are so much better than stuff from the '90s? I've played few modern games, but none of them have made me think, aha, this is so much better than some game from the '90s. The interface in a FPS game hasn't really changed since Quake on PC and Halo on consoles, for instance. I've never felt that some recent Call of Duty game or Far Cry 4 ground some early title into dust. Or to use your example, I've never played a game that makes me think, gee, Morrowind sure is a shitty experience. Oh, sure, the graphics look ugly, but then again, I thought that when I first played it, so that's nothing new. What exactly have you been playing that blows Morrowind away, because if there is such a game, I'd sure like to see it.
For the record, I'm not talking this exclusively on nostalgia, I played it last year and thought nothing wrong of it.
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,551
It's rather disappointing that whenever an actual discussion about classic games arises on the codex, you can see people repeating common, silly myths. Like modern UIs being some sort of immeasurable incline in comparison or games in the nineties being technical outdated in under a year.

On the other hand, at least we don't have literally 50+ Command & Conquer ripoffs in a single year. It's easy to remember how much shit was churned out back then.
Yeah, instead we get no C&C ripoffs and the genre that spawned quite a few classic and/or innovative games is completely dead outside of some predictably shit indie efforts and re-releases of golden oldies. Incline?
 

Duraframe300

Arcane
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
6,395
I have to wonder, having experienced the graphics, quality of life features, interface, UI / UX and general controls of modern games (admittedly, their biggest strengths, with gameplay and mechanics usually lacking), when you actually boot up one of those old games (which I highly doubt you've done in the past decade), can you honestly tell me you're fully enjoying the experience?

I tried playing Morrowind again very recently. I cannot. I want to but I cannot. Everything about the moment to moment experience is repulsive. It's not just the graphics. The interface and menus are hideous. The animations are nauseating. The jumping and movement over the terrain are retarded. The dice-roll combat in a first-person game is not something I can really put up with in the year 2021.

Again, have you actually install and play those games in the last decade? Are you actually able to enjoy the good parts without paying attention to all the shit that goes along with them?

Worst post in recent history.

Most people here are still playing games from the 90's. Emulators are more popular than ever for a reason. No, we're not just being *edgy*. And you not being able to play older games because of *QoL* features says more about you than it says about retro games.

discworld-2-psx-09.big.jpg
 

A horse of course

Guest
1998-2002 was truly special, but probably the bestest of them all is 1999.

Dyv5eBMUcAAqH_1

I don't remember anyone using terms like "PC Master Race" back then. It's a late 2000's meme iirc.
 

kangaxx

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 26, 2020
Messages
1,397
Location
Atop a flaming horse
It's a non-sequitur anyway. Having kids doesn't reduce your attention span.. but it definitely reduces your time for playing (I have kids). But you can equally argue that it's better spending your limited gaming time playing quality 90s games than mass produced rubbish like F4.
 

Curratum

Guest
It's a non-sequitur anyway. Having kids doesn't reduce your attention span.. but it definitely reduces your time for playing (I have kids). But you can equally argue that it's better spending your limited gaming time playing quality 90s games than mass produced rubbish like F4.

That is also true. The falsehood that I'm arguing against is not that there are no great 90s games. It's that great games ceased to exist or diminished to a single title per year or something similarly backwards and silly.
 

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