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Bard's Tale The Bard's Tale Series

drifting

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The armour may or may not be useful, because both Jaesun and Torpid are already at an AC of LO, which is what the game calls it when it hits -10. Question: does the game actually keep track of values lower than -10, but only displays LO, or is it completely useless to pile on more AC one you see LO?

The effective AC can be lower than what is shown. AC is especially important in BT1-2 since it also acts as THAC0.
I think it's capped at -20, though.
Capped at -10 in BT1 and -20 in BT2. Anything more is wasted.
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
Good luck getting past that fight, my money is on you quitting beforehand, much less surviving it with 2 trash PCs and only 2 magic users.
Lucky for you, I didn't take you on that bet :P

I just beat the insane berserker fight. It wasn't actually as hard as I thought it would be, only took me 3 tries before I got it right, but it was pretty tedious. I made a rather strategically unsound mistake, by switching both mages to sorcerers just before going for that fight. If I were smarter I would've waited until after beating it, because then they would have had high initiative. I also think the chance to pierce the enemy's magic resistance is based on your mage level (is it?) because the berserkers kept repelling the spells. On the bright side, doing this with fresh sorcerers let me catapult them to level 7 as soon as I was done with the fight. Two more levels and I get MIBL. I toyed briefly with the idea of farming this fight but decided not to unless I have to. I'm bracing myself for Kylearan's Tower.

Anyway the fight as I said was more tedious than hard. I had all my frontliners' AC at LO, so I had them defend every round, while the squishier Rogue hid in shadows. Gregz was right and the Rogue was complete, utter dead weight. The Bard wasn't so bad because I had him use the Fire Horn, which is at least as effective as DRBR or SHSP. Of course if I already had MIBL before engaging he would've been just as useless. Anyway I had the Conjurer cast SHSP while the Magician cast REST every round, since despite the low AC the paladin and the hunter were taking a beating (not enough to kill them though). When I had whittled down the groups a bit I switched the Magician to alternating DRBR and REST. He ran out of SP shortly afterwards, but at that point the groups were small enough that I had the frontliners engaged in melee, while the bard and the ex-conjurer kept casting (the bard was running both the healing song and the reduced enemy damage song at that point, both of which helped quite a bit). One each group size was in the single-digit it was pretty much over, as the vast majority of the hits were missing anyway. The reason it took me 3 tries: first one I was just experimenting to see how the fight goes, and on the 2nd try I started this exact same strategy, except I hit Defend on the rogue instead of Hide and he promptly got slaughtered.

I totally understand Gregz's advice now. I had already figured out just how good AOE magic was, but I was thinking about how things would've gone with MIBL in this fight. Probably 3 castings of it and it would've been over in a single round, unless enough berserkers resisted, at which point it would've been over the round after. It's truly ridiculous. Still, I'm glad I went with a more gimped party, I think I'm having more fun than I would have with a more efficient one. I'm enjoying playing with the various bard songs, and despite his worthlessness in the grand scheme of things, having the rogue disarm is satisfying, not to mention some of the items he gets to use, like Ali's Carpet, are great SP savers (which probably wouldn't matter if I had a 3rd caster anyway). I've got 2 more dungeons though so I may yet change my mind, especially since they're reputedly the hardest ones.

Oh yeah and after banging my head against the wall for a while I managed to figure out the "fields" riddle, and got, not so surprisingly, a very nice shield for my effort.
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
drifting, do you know if Wizards get better saving throws than Conjurors and Magicians in BT1-2?
Building on what octavius was asking, have you actually been able to figure out how the game mechanics work? Ie saves for each class/level, what kind of rolls HP and SP increases per level each class uses, how constitution factors into HP, how strength factors into damage, what IQ actually does, and so on? I think the only real values I've been able to find are for weapon damages, from that Wikia page I linked, and I don't even know if they're accurate. The games seem very opaque about these details, especially compared to M&M and Gold Box games, where most of this was very transparent.

EDIT: Oh you have GOT to be kidding me. Using the eye on the statue removes it? And if you walk away from the tower the gates reappear? Do I have to go get another eye from the temple EVERY TIME I want to leave the tower and get back? :argh:

EDIT 2: Singing the same bard song during combat over and over again... makes the effects stack :hmmm:

This game is hilariously broken.
 
Last edited:

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
Fucking Kylearan's tower and ALL THOSE FUCKING DARKNESS ZONES AND A FUCKING MAZE YOU HAVE TO MAP IN THE DARK :argh::argh::argh:
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
Actually it wasn't too bad. The dark maze drove me a bit nuts but it was otherwise pretty straightforward, as the map is pretty linear. I was expecting a ton of deadly traps, health leech squares and so on, but I think with MALE I bypassed most of them without ever knowing. The stasis field is NASTY though - you can't APAR so I think you're pretty much permanently stuck if you walk into it. The riddles weren't too bad, the stone golem one had the hints in the same area, and the Sinister one took me a bit until I remembered the neverending street (and it's obvious where it is from looking at the city map). Fights were pretty easy, I'm still running from any random encounter that would take too long (I'm a coward, unlike octavius). The 6 dragons made me pause, but at this point my frontliners can one-shot everything, even the thief can now, thanks to a wonderful Thief Dagger he got. DarkUnderlord is no longer useless! Kylearan is such a douchebag for making us go through all this though. The plot makes no sense though. We're after Mangar, and Kylearan could've simply helped to begin with. But for some reason the only way to get to him is to pick up Tarjan's eye from his temple, and use to revive him (why is the Mad God sitting in Harkyn's castle anyway? Who the hell is Harkyn?), which for some inexplicable reason sends you to Kylearan's. Also, I think reviving Tarjan here may be the reason all hell breaks loose in BT3? Uh....

Anyway off to Mangar's!
 

drifting

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drifting, do you know if Wizards get better saving throws than Conjurors and Magicians in BT1-2?
Building on what octavius was asking, have you actually been able to figure out how the game mechanics work? Ie saves for each class/level, what kind of rolls HP and SP increases per level each class uses, how constitution factors into HP, how strength factors into damage, what IQ actually does, and so on? I think the only real values I've been able to find are for weapon damages, from that Wikia page I linked, and I don't even know if they're accurate. The games seem very opaque about these details, especially compared to M&M and Gold Box games, where most of this was very transparent.
Yes. I have disassembled the DOS versions of all three games.

BT1 saving throws:
Base player saving throw is (level / 2). This result is capped at 18. So if the character level is 40, the base saving throw is 18 and not 20. After that, bonuses are applied. +2 if a piece of equipment with the luck bonus effect is equipped. +1 for every Dx point above 15. Paladins get a bonus based on their level. Other classes have a set bonus.

BT1 HP increase per level:
HP bonus for Cn is +1 for every point over 15
1d15: Warrior, Bard, Paladin, Hunter
1d7: Wizard, Sorcerer, Rogue, Monk
1d3

BT1 Strength affect on damage:
Curiously none. Adds a bonus to to-hit though

BT1 IQ:
Only affects spell points at character creation and level up.
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
Thanks for sharing all the information. I was wondering why my sorcerers had more HP than my rogue... now I know.

In other news my ex-Conjurer is now running around with a Conjurstaff and life is good :smug:

Slowly mapping Mangar's Tower. Level 1 was a breeze until I hit the Deathfield :argh: There's another area you get to shortly afterwards, a 3x3 room with spinners in almost every square, and doors on each wall leading to side rooms with various traps, darkness, and assorted delights. As far as I can tell this whole room is a complete waste of time. Level 2 is weird because the entire NE corner is duplicated from level 1. Moving into what should be the Deathfield on this level, if it's the same I thankfully have a map, if it's not much cussing will ensue.
 

Gregz

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I thankfully have a map

I don't know how to say this without coming across as an ass, but this is an issue I've brought up several times here at the Codex that folks just don't seem to want to discuss.

These games are 100x easier with Google. There are maps, tables, walkthroughs, riddle solutions, and everything and anything you might need to simply waltz through what is in actuality a very difficult game. I don't know what spoilers/tools you have or haven't used, and it's none of my business. But there is a VAST discrepancy between plaything these games straight, like "back in the day", than how 99% of players play them now.

The internet is a Pandora's box that cannot be closed, unless you bring the game on a laptop with you to a cabin without internet for 2 weeks.

Sadly, even on the Codex, when the going gets tough, the 'tough' go to Google.

I'm not directing this at you Sceptic, I myself am guilty of this, but the 'problem' is endemic. Half the joy of beating these games (that's what we used to call it when we didn't cheat) comes from overcoming challenge. Practically speaking there are very very few gamers today who are actually playing the game from start to finish without using the internet. Even this thread has been chock full of hints and spoilers.

Again, these games are about fun, but please don't confuse the experience you are having with what Daemongar was describing upthread about being lost in Kylerean's Tower for 3 months. That's really how it was, and it's only us late 30s and older folks who were actually there to see it. It is impossible to simulate the way things were in today's age. Whether that is a good or bad thing is another discussion, but people should not say 'this game isn't so hard' if they used the internet for any purpose other than obtaining the game.
 

octavius

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I mostly agre with Gregz, but I have never recognized myself in the "I spent 3 months doing this level" type of nostalgia. What I used to have problems with were the riddles, and riddles or obtuse puzzles are what I today use walkthroughs for. Finding my way through mazes of Darkness, Spinners and Anti-Magic zones have always been easier (and more enjoyable) for me than solving illogical puzzles.

Using maps is just lame, IMO. Half (and no, that is not literally half) the fun of games like BT and other blobbers is the mapping of deviously designed levels. If you just breeze through you don't just miss out on much of what is the heart of the game, but you also get less XP and loot. In BT1 (unlike BT3) you really need all the XP you can get.
 

octavius

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Anyway, all this talk about Bard's Tale and devious level design almost makes me want to play BT2 again!
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
Um... reread what I wrote :p I meant that, if the Deathfield is the same on both levels I wouldn't have to map it again because I could use the map I had just made for level 1. It didn't matter in any case because the area where the Deathfield was on level 1 is also where level 2's architecture becomes something completely different.
So far the only spoilers I have used are:
a) this thread
b) the Wikia items page I linked earlier, to figure out the damage range of the various weapons

That's it. I suspect I'd have finished the game a week ago if I had used internet maps and walkthroughs, but then there wouldn't have been much point. I enjoy mapping and exploration, as you probably know from my gaming tastes exploration is the #1 thing I look for in a CRPG, so bypassing that one element and leaving all the others would be pretty pointless. The big cheating I'm doing is with the save states (I disclosed this rather early on though, I think), but TBH I don't feel any guilt over this one, not with how unbalanced random encounters are. And they do remove a lot of the difficulty, but what they remove would be me spending 3h on an alternate party grinding the gold to revive my main party after they died to a random encounter in the tower. Thanks, but even back then I didn't have the patience for this and backed up my Wizardry, BT and Ultima 1-3 saves regularly. The only reason I put up with limited saves in MM1 is because it was such a damn good game and I was so madly in love with it, and there was absolutely no way around it.

I don't fully agree with you about spoilers though, specifically eg about using this thread. Sure back then we didn't have internet... but we had friends. Almost all my friends (actual friends, as opposed to just people I knew) gamed to one extent or the other. Many were into CRPGs and dungeon crawlers, and naturally we bonded by trading recommendations (and the occasional floppy...), and when a new game came out, we were usually all playing it at the same time and solving puzzles and riddles at the same time. It's one of the things I miss the most about gaming back then, and it's why I like communities like this one, because it can somewhat recreate the feeling of trading thoughts and spoilers about games that most people no longer care about.
 

octavius

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Ah, guess I misread then. Anyway my comment on the lameness of using maps was a general comment.

Incidentally , the only games I used save states in was MM1 and Knights of Legend.
In Bard's Tale and Wizardry you could always resurrect a dead party.
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
It was mostly directed at Gregz. I think he saw the bit where I said "I have the map" [of level 1] and didn't notice I started the paragraph by saying I'm mapping the tower :P

Under other circumstances, like with how much I replay MM1, I just use my own, old maps now. I just know the game too well. The reason I'm not doing that with BT1 is that I remember almost nothing about the level design, so it really does feel like playing it for the first time. Well, also because when I looked in my "old game notes" box I didn't see a folder for BT, so I probably don't have them anymore. Bits and pieces come back to me, like when I got attacked by a "Fred", and as soon as I entered Mangar level 3 and was in darkness I remembered how much I hated mapping this the first time round (I think that this level, the wine cellar, Skara Brae itself, and the last level of the Mad God's Temple are the only ones I actually remember). I'm hating it just as much now, and if not for Gregz's post above I might've been tempted to actually get that level's map :P

I did find Kylearan's easier than I expected from reading everyone's comments here. The dark maze is by far the most difficult and time consuming part, otherwse I'm looking at my map and there's... the big dark area with the riddle, which you can lawnmaw. There's the big central room with all the one-square side rooms, but that didn't take long to map. There are the 2 room with spinners. There's the nasty and evil stasis chamber. That's it. The path through them is very linear, you go from one area to the next, usually with no way back. If there are traps I levitated across all of them and never triggered any. A good chunk of the map is just "filler" corridors, easy to map and with nothing in them. Running away worked for most fights, so that wasn't a problem either, and aside from the fixed dragon fight the rest weren't too hard, even for my underleveled party. The only difficulty is that you can't leave until you're done, but even if I weren't using save states (which I didn't have to use that much anyway... though I did have to to get out of stasis) the hard part is mapping, so even if you die and have to come back, it takes 2 minutes to get back to where you left off.

Mangar's tower has been much harder so far, partly because the fights are harder and running away doesn't work that often, but mostly because the level design is more devious. Level 1 has the 3 identical-looking areas with one-square rooms that you teleport between, then the Deathfield, then that all-spinners room I mentioned. Seriously, it's only a 5x5 area (including all the side rooms) and it took me longer than the entire level to map. And then I didn't find anything there anyway! Then level 2 has another dark zone to map out, where I got the silver circle (shades of Ultima 7's EA logo references... except this was 6 years earlier!), the long dark hallway that gives you access to the southern part (took me a while to figure it out), the southern area with trapts and spinners and health leeching squares... and the level 3 is ALL dark hallways, with traps, spinners, health sap, antimagic zones, spinners IN the antimagic zone that is also dark... :argh: Seriously who thought of that one! And I still have like 4/5th of the map black.
 

octavius

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spinners IN the antimagic zone that is also dark... :argh: Seriously who thought of that one!

968147189-00.jpg
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
I don't think I've seen one yet, is it in BT1? I have found several Dork rings though -_-

Anyway, all this talk about Bard's Tale and devious level design almost makes me want to play BT2 again!
You should totally do that, and then we can compare notes when I start it. I think I remember BT2 more than BT1 actually, mainly because I remember severely disliking it :P
 

octavius

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I don't think I've seen one yet, is it in BT1?

I'm pretty sure I found one when I replayed (most of) BT1 some years ago. It's definitely in BT2, though. In BT3 (always the gentler game) it's called a Nospin Ring.

Will you do BT2 right after BT1?
I'm about to start Nahlahk (currently perusing the manual and hint book), which can take months to finish.

Oh, and wil you import characters or create new ones?
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
Will you do BT2 right after BT1?
That's the plan, unless the last levels of Mangar's manage to burn me thoroughly (doubt it at this stage, though I keep taking breaks from mapping to post here :P).

(currently perusing the manual and hint book)
And then you lecture me about about the lameness of using maps? :rpgcodex:
 

octavius

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Well, the manual is very bare bones and don't explain anything. Like for example, that four of the skills do nothing.
I'm just reading the stuff about game mechanics, just so that I can avoid getting gimped characters.
 

Gregz

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I'm about to start Nahlahk

Never heard of this one, just checked it out on youtube. I would have loved to have tried this about 10 years ago, it looks like a very deep system, but the gameplay/UI looks too slow/tedious for me these days. I just don't have the patience anymore sadly. Looks like a very cool game though.

If you do play it I hope you do a review/LP of some kind.
 

hjustin

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I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread and I wonder how I managed to beat the game way back in 1987 on my C64 with nothing but the game manual and a pad of graph paper. No Google, no walkthroughs, no Gregz to get me through the rough spots. I remember thinking at the time BT1 was the most amazing thing ever and I faked illness to stay home from school to play. I still have my C64 and the game. Fired it all up a few years ago and everything still works. This thread is tempting me to go it again. I just have to decide which platform to play it on. Would be cool to play the sequels as well. Couldn't afford them back in the day. Thanks all for sharing your experiences.
 

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