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Bard's Tale The Bard's Tale Series

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
I'm taking a break from mapping Mad God's temple level 3 to write this. Shortly after my last post the game completely broke, and I don't think the series recovers until Dragon Wars. The fundamental problem with the encounter design is that, when you run into a group of 66 skeletons, there's really only one option: have your mages cast AOE spells, and then mash Enter 132 times, and then you win. You then get showered with XP and gold, which makes tackling any of the random encounters worthless. Why spend round after round in that fight against 8 blue dragons, 5 storm giants and god knows what else when you can just repeat the 66 skeletons fight in a single round for the same reward? I'm still holding to my no-grinding rule, and only doing these fixed encounters once as I map, but I'm also skipping random encounters now whenever I know I can't do them in less than 1-2 rounds - they're simply not worth the time and the SP cost. My mages got to level 9 and everyone else is level 10, and as I get higher level spells the "single group of tons of enemies" fights get progressively easier, while all the multi-group fights gets more tedious.

Despite the ridiculous combat I'm actually enjoying this more than I thought I would. Level design has improved dramatically, with less randomness and more visible patterns as you map, and better use of traps, spinners, anti-magic zones and one-way doors. There's a certain mondblutian pleasure in watching the pretty numbers go up after ever advancement. There were also some nasty surprises, such as the stasis field (though you do get warned) and the Soul Sucker, who TPKed me very quickly, and who is particularly nasty because he's behind a series of one-way doors.

I'm glad I didn't follow Gregz's advice because the bard is great. Traveller's Tune is a flat 2 AC bonus, and since you can sing it outside combat that means he also gets to do other things in combat, without losing the bonus, and it lasts a LONG time. The Fire Horn is also great, and I'm still using, it seems to have quite a few charges. Annoyingly I found not one but two Lak's Lyres, which are supposed to cast GRRE, but they do nothing at all (using them gives "you can't do that"). The rogue saves me a ton of SP - I noticed that you don't HAVE to detect the trap properly to disarm it, so even when he finds nothing I disarm at whim anyway, and most of the time if you input the wrong trap you just get to try again. His damage is underwhelming, but then it's not as if the paladin and hunter are doing much anyway, they're just there to soak melee attacks while the mages unleash death and destruction, and the rogue's hide in shadows is actually great for this.

I'm trying to plan what to turn the mages into. I'll probably end up going Sorcerer for both once they reach level 13, as I don't see a benefit to turning one into the other's class. Next will be Wizard for both, and if I haven't finished the game by then each will end at the other's starting class, though I have the feeling that, unless I end up HAVING to grind, I won't get this far before the end. Which is nice, I'd like to start BT2 with relatively lower level characters.
 

octavius

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The game has a difficulty curve that goes from hard to easy (although the easiness may have been due to getting the Wind Dragon spell ASAP) and then gradually harder until it gets very hard on the last levels. So you need all the XP you can get, but it's best to get that XP later in the game.
So absolutely no need to grind those 66 Skeletons. They are supposed to be a unique encounter anyway, but repeat due to technical limitations which I'm sure you know about (no saving of dungeons).

Yeah, that Soul Sucker was nasty. Still, in Bard's Tale not even party death is game over.

So you haven't changed any of the mages into Sorceror yet? Oh well, once you finish the Wine Cellar things get easier, so maybe it's better in the long run to delay class changes. But you should end their careers in the opposite of the base class in which they started, since the base classes advance quicker in levels, and thus should get better initiative and saving throws in the end game.
 
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Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
About 2 minutes after I made my post I ran into 99 skeletons :lol: This game is outrageous. It does make the flaws with combat quite glaring, since both encounters play EXACTLY the same, despite a 50% increase in enemy numbers.
Level 3 of the Temple was great though, lots of traps and teleporters. The Spectre was a massive pushover though. I expected a tough fight, and was panicky because I was low on SP, then when I saw it was just him I thought he'd hit super hard. Turns out he wasted his single attack against a wandering ninja that had joined me, before Torpid the hunter crit him in one shot, wasting bard song and spells that were already queued. I haven't finished mapping down there though, so I'll go back and do that before I figure out what to do with the eye I got from him.

The game has a difficulty curve that goes from hard to easy (although the easiness may have been due to getting the Wind Dragon spell ASAP) and then gradually harder until it gets very hard on the last levels. So you need all the XP you can get, but it's best to get that XP later in the game.
So absolutely no need to grind those 66 Skeletons. They are supposed to be a unique encounter anyway, but repeat due to technical limitations which I'm sure you know about (no saving of dungeons).
I don't have Wind Dragon. I keep forgetting to summon my own specials for slot #7 so I pick whoever happens to want to join. Super useful as cannon fodder.
Yeah I'm aware of the limitation, and in all these games I've always treated the special encounters as one-time events. The only time I didn't was in MM2, when I grinded my party to level 255 or whatever the max was by repeatedly killing the Cuisinarts. Since that game level scales everything it made the rest of the game VERY tedious, and I've never done it since. So far I've done each of the fixed encounters once, and they've been the bulk of my XP gains since I skip most random ones. I'm not used to Run working so well, I'm still in the M&M mentality...

So you haven't changed any of the mages into Sorceror yet? Oh well, once you finish the Wine Cellar things get easier, so maybe it's better in the long run to delay class changes. But you should end their careers in the opposite of the base class in which they started, since the base classes advance quicker in levels, and thus should get better initiative and saving throws in the end game.
Oh yeah forgot about the initiative and saves, that makes sense. I didn't switch them because I didn't want to do that until they got to level 13 and had all the spells, since you can't go back and change your class. It might not matter a huge deal here, since by ending each on the other's starting class I'll have all the spells in the party at least, but if I do take this party all the way to BT3, when one of them goes Chronomancer I'll have lost whichever spells the other didn't have because he switched too early.
 

Gregz

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I'm glad I didn't follow Gregz's advice because the bard is great. Traveller's Tune is a flat 2 AC bonus, and since you can sing it outside combat that means he also gets to do other things in combat, without losing the bonus, and it lasts a LONG time. The Fire Horn is also great, and I'm still using, it seems to have quite a few charges. Annoyingly I found not one but two Lak's Lyres, which are supposed to cast GRRE, but they do nothing at all (using them gives "you can't do that"). The rogue saves me a ton of SP - I noticed that you don't HAVE to detect the trap properly to disarm it, so even when he finds nothing I disarm at whim anyway, and most of the time if you input the wrong trap you just get to try again. His damage is underwhelming, but then it's not as if the paladin and hunter are doing much anyway, they're just there to soak melee attacks while the mages unleash death and destruction, and the rogue's hide in shadows is actually great for this.

You haven't even scratched the surface of this game. You're still at the beginning, around level 15 you'll appreciate just how useless the bard and rogue are, and you will oh so very desperately wish you had another 280 mana bank wizard in your party.

Assuming you manage to even make it to the mid-point of the game, the harsh reality of what I'm warning you against will become starkly apparent, mark my words.

You are right, this game is about one thing and one thing only...AOE spells and effects. Dragon breath and other lesser spells until you get a sorcerer who can cast MIBL, which will make every other offensive spell you can acquire in the entire game obsolete. The damage to mana ratio is simply that good. You'll need the healing and dungeoneering spells of course, and GRSU or WIDR will be useful, but for XP farming (which directly correlates to your survivability) you will need to prepare your party to handle set-piece fights like the large group of skeletons you have found. (good luck with the larger groups of zombies and ghouls!) If you manage to continue playing far enough (which I doubt because you party composition will frustrate you to pieces before doing so), you will oh so desperately wish you had a 3rd MIBL caster for the infamous:

1422758622156.png


At which point you will be, maybe, 1/2 way through the game. Good luck getting past that fight, my money is on you quitting beforehand, much less surviving it with 2 trash PCs and only 2 magic users.

So please try to get at least half way through the game before declaring my advice unsound. You haven't seen shit yet, and yes this game gets much harder. The game is beatable with your party, but you will grind twice as long as you would have with my suggested party, not to mention all the time lost from dying and reloading due to your weak party composition.

But, if you are having fun, that's all that really matters. It's a game after all.
 
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octavius

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Level 3 of the Temple was great though, lots of traps and teleporters. The Spectre was a massive pushover though. I expected a tough fight, and was panicky because I was low on SP, then when I saw it was just him I thought he'd hit super hard. Turns out he wasted his single attack against a wandering ninja that had joined me, before Torpid the hunter crit him in one shot, wasting bard song and spells that were already queued.

Tthe Spectre is a feared enemy, because he has a special attack that most gamers consider worse than death. You were lucky he wasted his attack on a NPC.
 

Daemongar

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Codex Year of the Donut
Think Harklyn's Castle / 396 Berzerkers is towards the end of the game, as the next dungeon is Mangar's Tower. Also, this is about the only area of the game where there is the ability to bypass a fight, though you'd probably do it for the xps.

If you make it to the Castle, it's not too much to go to Mangar's, and while the game may be monotonous, Mangar's Tower is still a lot of fun. Some very interesting traps and events. Also, you'll probably appreciate that while BT does have ridiculous encounters, the game doesn't suffer from HP bloat in the final dungeon.

On the Bard/Thief utility: there are easier ways to breeze through the game, to be sure. However, playing the game without a Bard is daft. They are handy, their abilities scale, and they add something to the game. Mercinary need to "just finish the damn game so I can say I did it" may dictate dropping the rogue and bard, but if you don't like the game, why bother playing it at all?
 

octavius

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Kylearan's Tower is next, a very hard dungeon btw assuming you don't use Google or other cheats, not Mangar's Tower.

How so? The riddles or mapping challenge? I can't remember the details anymore, but I recall the combat difficulty increased significantly on the last levels on Mangar's Tower.
 

Gregz

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Kylearan's Tower is next, a very hard dungeon btw assuming you don't use Google or other cheats, not Mangar's Tower.

How so? The riddles or mapping challenge? I can't remember the details anymore, but I recall the combat difficulty increased significantly on the last levels on Mangar's Tower.

The dungeon itself, traps, false walls, teleports, all the while with difficult random encounters ticking the party's resources down.
 
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Daemongar

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The dungeon itself, traps, false walls, teleports, all the while with difficult random encounters ticking the party's resources down.
On this, you are spot on. That tower was brutal without a walkthrough, even with my mapping skills. I spent about 4 months IRL in Kylearean's Tower. Actually stuck with it until I finally happened on the way out, but it was pretty horrific. Called Interplay, wrote a letter to Michael Cranford, spoke to fellow nerds. Technically, this boned up the rest of the games, as I was level 80+ going into BT2 and 3 due to all the combat.

If you do make it to Kylereans, try to do it without a walk-through or map. May be frustrating, but it may be worth trying.
 

octavius

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Kylearan's Tower is next, a very hard dungeon btw assuming you don't use Google or other cheats, not Mangar's Tower.

How so? The riddles or mapping challenge? I can't remember the details anymore, but I recall the combat difficulty increased significantly on the last levels on Mangar's Tower.

The dungeon itself, traps, false walls, teleports, all the while with difficult random encounters ticking the party's resources down.

Ah, those designers' mind tricks don't have much effect on me anymore. :smug:
Besides it's only one level, isn't it?
Anyway, I think it pays in the long run to spend a long time, since you need all the XP for the next dungeon. Last time I played I must have played too quickly, 'cause the combat in Mangar's Tower was more difficult (despite having 3 mages) than I remembered from the first time.
 
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octavius

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The dungeon itself, traps, false walls, teleports, all the while with difficult random encounters ticking the party's resources down.
On this, you are spot on. That tower was brutal without a walkthrough, even with my mapping skills. I spent about 4 months IRL in Kylearean's Tower. Actually stuck with it until I finally happened on the way out, but it was pretty horrific. Called Interplay, wrote a letter to Michael Cranford, spoke to fellow nerds. Technically, this boned up the rest of the games, as I was level 80+ going into BT2 and 3 due to all the combat.

Great story. I guess you were younger than me when you played it? I was 18 or 19. Used the army discharge money to buy that sweet Amiga, and spent a glorious summer with my first amiga the nerd way.
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
But, if you are having fun, that's all that really matters. It's a game after all.
The big problem with BT1, and this school of design in general, is that the difficulty is extremely spiky and extreme; if you don't play with the one and only optimal way the game is incredibly hard and frustrating, but the optimal way is much more boring. I'm almost convinced that the real optimal way to play the game would be to level up 2 half-parties of 3 mages each, using the same core 3 tanks (probably paladin/monk/hunter) until you have all 6 mages at full level, then go adventuring with them. End them all as Wizard for maximum lulz, since they can then use a lot of magical armour that mages otherwise cannot. They'll have enough defensive abilities to be practically invulnerable, and then they'll mop the floor with everything and anything the game can throw at them, unless it's an obligatory fight in an antimagic zone (are there any of these?). Of course I'd probably quit the game out of tedium and boredom 5 or 6 times before getting to that point.

I am having fun. I've made my choice for this playthrough, I want to play what seems more fun rather than more optimal. It's worked so far, though that may change when I get to the midway point you mentioned. The problem is that most of the fun I'm having is from not using your more optimal build, and as I described above I think it's fundamental to the way the game is designed.

(good luck with the larger groups of zombies and ghouls!)
Hah, bumped into those as well. On one of them I had to use the bard's Fire Horn for some extra damage. The problem I expect to run in because of not having a 3rd mage is when I do get the full 4 groups like you described.

Kylearan's Tower is next
Are you sure it's the tower? I can't get past the gates. The stairs up from sewers 3 take me just outside Mangar's (which I didn't even try to get into; I don't think you even can that early?) but I haven't yet found a way into Kylearan's. Harkyn's is open OTOH, and I got a clue on the wall of the Temple that pointed me there, so I thought that was next. Did I miss something?

If you do make it to Kylereans, try to do it without a walk-through or map. May be frustrating, but it may be worth trying.
I've been going by memory alone, so mapping everything out. Much more fun that way. Let's see if I change my mind at Kylearan's :lol:
I've been running from most random fights, but considering how low level my party is maybe I should stop doing that. Especially since I don't have any great equipment either. Still waiting on those magical mage staves, but I guess they only show up late in the game?

How did you fare against them? I still remember them being a rude shock to my first party.
They raped the party quite hard. I've been running away like a little bitch from every dragon encounter since. They have high initiative, so they go first, and one breath kills both my casters. Then again I wasn't prepared and didn't have my antimagic protections up (should start using that bard song for this...)
 

octavius

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Harkyn's Castle is before Kylerean's Tower so you are on the right track.
Tip: make sure you always have room in your inventory for quest items.
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
Speaking of items: I've been assuming so far that, if an item is worth more at Garth's, it's therefore better. Figuring out which armour is better is easy, just look at AC improvement. Of course special items with special uses are useful depending on what they do. But is price=better the way to go for weapons? I have Mithr Swords, but then I just got both a Crystal Sword and a Dayblade.
 

octavius

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Weapons that cast spells, like the Dayblade, are generally not worth it, unless you only have basic weapons.
Some weapons have unexpected properties, like the Bardsword.
Others are just awesome, like Stone Blades.
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
Give the Crystal Sword a try :smug:
It's so beautiful :retarded:

TBH I can't tell which weapons are better. My paladin has the crystal sword now and is hitting for a ton of damage, but I don't know if it's the sword itself or the fact he now has 3 attacks. I keep cycling the hunter between the mthr sword and the dayblade and don't see a difference. But the range on the damage is a bit crazy is in this game. When a blue dragon breathes on me it hits for anywhere between 2 and 100+ damage.

On the bright side, as I was typing this I got my first Bardsword. Is this thing really giving me unlimited bard songs?

Edity edit: I found this wiki page. Anyone know if the values here appear to be true from your experience?

Edit 2: The Bardsword gives unlimited songs. No more conserving of bard songs! I also found something rather hilarious. There is no "x round" duration in the game. Buffs last either a set amount of time outside combat, or the entire duration of a fight. Which means that I can pile up every single bard song in the space of one fight, except of course none of them go on long enough. Still, I'm having a great deal of fun running permanent health regen, AC bonus, spell resistance, and everything I can, on every single fight. I even ran into 3 blue dragons and wiped the floor with them. I feel so good.

(in before I run into 99 berserkers and Gregz says "told you so")

Edit 3: Smoke is bloody annoying.

Edit 4: Speaking of blue dragons.... guess who just joined my party :smug:
 
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Daemongar

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The dungeon itself, traps, false walls, teleports, all the while with difficult random encounters ticking the party's resources down.
On this, you are spot on. That tower was brutal without a walkthrough, even with my mapping skills. I spent about 4 months IRL in Kylearean's Tower. Actually stuck with it until I finally happened on the way out, but it was pretty horrific. Called Interplay, wrote a letter to Michael Cranford, spoke to fellow nerds. Technically, this boned up the rest of the games, as I was level 80+ going into BT2 and 3 due to all the combat.

Great story. I guess you were younger than me when you played it? I was 18 or 19. Used the army discharge money to buy that sweet Amiga, and spent a glorious summer with my first amiga the nerd way.
I might be a little younger than you (a small bit.) I graduated from HS in '86. Played all the BT games on the C64, then switched to Amiga after seeing a magazine ad for DM and becoming obsessed (same with seeing images of U5 on the C64 and Amiga side by side.) Moved to the Amiga somewhere between Curse of the Azure Bonds and Secret of the Silver Blades. I remember being so broke once I purchased the Amiga, I couldn't afford the 512k expansion to play DM, or U5 or DM for that matter.

Moving to the Amiga wasn't all about graphics, it was about real stereo sound, and not having to swap disks every 30 goddamn seconds. PoR was indeed awesome on the C64, but that was 8 disks. I remember after working two jobs and saving, being able to afford a second floppy for the Amiga. That was it. I had arrived.

Moved away from the Amiga when I saw a magazine ad for U7 and started to become obsessed again. Sold my Amiga and wished I didn't have to.
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
Finished mapping the 2nd level of Harkyn's. This has been a ton of fun, except I keep having to run back to town because every single fight drops a magic item. Everyone's loaded with them now, my hunter is using Kael's Axe, I have Dayblades up the wazoo, Ali's Carpet, a bunch of Exorwands, two Luckshields and god knows what else, I can't keep track anymore. My mages are level 11, which means I can summon ogres, leviate forever, turn walls into doors, and cast YMCA, which I think is supposed to give the entire party bonus armour (I'll need to check if this stacks with the bard song). The armour may or may not be useful, because both Jaesun and Torpid are already at an AC of LO, which is what the game calls it when it hits -10. Question: does the game actually keep track of values lower than -10, but only displays LO, or is it completely useless to pile on more AC one you see LO?

Harkyn's was a lot of fun to map. Sensible design, secret doors and one-way doors, teleporters, traps, all cleverly placed. I do wonder though, you HAVE to have a Bard for this don't you? I don't think there's any way to get past the secret door behind the throne otherwise? Or can you just APAR past it? I guess this is the problem with spells like APAR, Etherealize in M&M, and Passwall in Arena, they just completely trivialize obstacles, puzzles and level design when you can just ignore these features. Speaking of puzzles, I found two riddles in Harkyn 2. One was that old man (who you can also fight, but I just answered him) who you tell VAMPIRES, but I have no idea what the other one is. It's a magic mouth that talks about past wars fought by men, and the One God raises his head and bestows strength on... or something like that. I've gone through my (rather sparse) notes and I have no bloody clue what he's talking about. If the answer is somewhere that I missed please leave a clue but don't give me the answer outright.

I also found a silver square, which I'm guessing is yet another quest item vying for the precious little inventory space I have left. I noticed quest items get given to you on a different screen than the usual loot, and after the loot, so I know the crystal sword, this silver square, the Eye from the Spectre, are all going to be important eventually. It does make me wonder though... the only reason to run the sewers early in the game is to get the name of the Mad God and enter his temple. But, with foreknowledge, you can sequence-break and just go straight there with a level 1 party, right? After all BT1 doesn't save the game world, only the individual characters, and you technically don't need to enter the sewers until you're trying to get to Mangar's Tower.
 

octavius

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Finished mapping the 2nd level of Harkyn's. This has been a ton of fun, except I keep having to run back to town because every single fight drops a magic item.


I'm pretty sure you can drop magic items; you don't need to run back to town to sell them.

My mages are level 11,

They are still in their original classes? Not having a Sorceror and Wizard may start to hurt...

which means I can summon ogres, leviate forever, turn walls into doors, and cast YMCA, which I think is supposed to give the entire party bonus armour (I'll need to check if this stacks with the bard song).

It does.

The armour may or may not be useful, because both Jaesun and Torpid are already at an AC of LO, which is what the game calls it when it hits -10. Question: does the game actually keep track of values lower than -10, but only displays LO, or is it completely useless to pile on more AC one you see LO?

The effective AC can be lower than what is shown. AC is especially important in BT1-2 since it also acts as THAC0.
I think it's capped at -20, though.

Harkyn's was a lot of fun to map. Sensible design, secret doors and one-way doors, teleporters, traps, all cleverly placed. I do wonder though, you HAVE to have a Bard for this don't you? I don't think there's any way to get past the secret door behind the throne otherwise? Or can you just APAR past it?

I think you can APAR your way around it, but obviously you are supposed to have a Bard in your party.
BTW, how did you like the Captain of the Guards?

I guess this is the problem with spells like APAR, Etherealize in M&M, and Passwall in Arena, they just completely trivialize obstacles, puzzles and level design when you can just ignore these features. Speaking of puzzles, I found two riddles in Harkyn 2. One was that old man (who you can also fight, but I just answered him) who you tell VAMPIRES, but I have no idea what the other one is. It's a magic mouth that talks about past wars fought by men, and the One God raises his head and bestows strength on... or something like that. I've gone through my (rather sparse) notes and I have no bloody clue what he's talking about. If the answer is somewhere that I missed please leave a clue but don't give me the answer outright.

There is no in-game clue, but there's no need since the riddle is a verse with rhyming words. So what rhymes with "fields"?

I also found a silver square, which I'm guessing is yet another quest item vying for the precious little inventory space I have left. I noticed quest items get given to you on a different screen than the usual loot, and after the loot, so I know the crystal sword, this silver square, the Eye from the Spectre, are all going to be important eventually. It does make me wonder though... the only reason to run the sewers early in the game is to get the name of the Mad God and enter his temple. But, with foreknowledge, you can sequence-break and just go straight there with a level 1 party, right? After all BT1 doesn't save the game world, only the individual characters, and you technically don't need to enter the sewers until you're trying to get to Mangar's Tower.

Yes, that is correct.
 

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