The best writer in RPGs is...

[sullynathan]

story fags unite

 

[LizardWizard]

The best cRPG writer is hands down Vault Dweller, A.K.A., Vincent Weller, or whatever the hell his real name is. A distant second is Chris Avellone.

VD also had a decade to polish the writing in AOD.

 

[FeelTheRads]

The best cRPG writer is hands down Vault Dweller, A.K.A., Vincent Weller, or whatever the hell his real name is. A distant second is Chris Avellone.

lulz

And the best game designer is Pete Hines.

 

[Lurker King]

The best cRPG writer is hands down Vault Dweller, A.K.A., Vincent Weller, or whatever the hell his real name is. A distant second is Chris Avellone.

VD also had a decade to polish the writing in AOD.

He already had most of the writing in Teron when he presented the demo 6 years ago. In fact, if you look at his first posts about the game, he already had a vision or concept of what the setting, factions and quests would look like that end up being very close to the final game. I don’t think that is just about the writing, but world-building and vision. For instance, Underrail doesn’t have great writing, but also has a strong personality and world building. The locations, cities and vocabulary doesn’t look artificially created, but real places to live. Maybe the result was more believable because they conceived the game long ago and had time to "polish" or mature their vision in their heads. Or maybe it’s because they are talented and have strong visions. The same thing happens with AoD.

 

[Lurker King]

AoD isn't good at worldbuilding. They tried too hard to be realistic, but they don't know enough of history or human behavior to follow through. It'd been more forgivable if they'd been a bit more tongue in cheek.

Please, explain to me what is that they don't understand about human behavior. If AoD is not belieavable, no cRPG is beliavable.

 

[Darth Roxor]

vd is good at populating his game with a hundred clones of himself

 

[Lurker King]

Indeed, because that is what happens when you make a great game. You create a bunch of dogmatic fanboys. Just look at this review. It’s disgusting.

 

[AbounI]

vd is good at populating his game with a hundred clones of himself

I can see to 2 reasons to explain that :
- the first is that he has to be here and there in AoD world to check by himself if everything is allright for the debug works and to see who does what.Old school to the bones is Vince
- the second if an easter egg to the clones of the 1st Witcher, though I'm not sure if it was intentional

Spoiler

 

[Shadowfang]

Vince.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

Everybody knows that the right answer is... Jehanne Rousseau!

 

[DosBuster]

i have a feeling that Bethesda doesnt even understand how deep and rich the world of TES is.

same with me too. let's see what unique culture and locations and characters they ruined in TES VI

Oh, you are all so wrong.

The lead designer of The Elder Scrolls is responsible for what Kirkbride himself considers, "The greatest piece of lore in the whole series".

The book is called the Dragon Break Re-Examined, and I think it's only found within Morrowind, you can read it here:

Spoiler

The late 3rd era was a period of remarkable religious ferment and creativity. The upheavals of the reign of Uriel VII were only the outward signs of the historical forces that would eventually lead to the fall of the Septim Dynasty. The so called "Dragon Break" was first proposed at this time, by a wide variety of cults and fringe sects across the Empire, connected only by a common obsession with the events surrounding Tiber Septim's rise to power -- the "founding myth", if you will, of the Septim Dynasty.

The basis of the Dragon Break doctrine is now known to be a rather prosaic error in the timeline printed in the otherwise authoritative "Encyclopedia Tamrielica", first published in 3E 12, during the early years of Tiber Septim reign. At that time, the archives of Alinor were still inaccessible to human scholars, and the extant records from the Alessian period were extremely fragmentary. The Alessians had systematically burned all the libraries they could find, and their own records were largely destroyed during the War of Righteousness.

The author of the Encyclopedia Tamrielica was apparently unfamiliar with the Alessian "year", which their priesthood used to record all dates. We now know this refers to the length of the long vision-trances undertaken by the High Priestess, which might last anywhere from a few weeks to several months. Based on analysis of the surviving trance scrolls, as well as murals and friezes from Alessian temples, I estimate that the Alessian Order actually lasted only about 150 years, rather than the famous "one thousand and eight years" given by the Encyclopedia Tamrielica. The "mystery" of the millennial-plus rule of the Alessians was accepted but unexplained until the spread of the Lorkhan cults in the late 3rd era, when the doctrine of the Dragon Break took hold. Because this dating (and explanation) was so widely held at the time, and then repeated by historians down through today, it has come to have the force of tradition. Recall, however, that the 3rd era historians were already separated from the Alessians by a gulf of more than 2,000 years. And history was still in its infancy, relying on the few archives from those early days.

Today, modern archaeology and paleonumerology have confirmed what my own research in Alessian dating first suggested: that the Dragon Break was invented in the late 3rd era, based on a scholarly error, fueled by obsession with eschatology and Numidiumism, and perpetuated by scholarly inertia.

Doesn't seem like anything special, right?

The whole thing describes the fall of the Septims, which occurred in Oblivion, this book is in Morrowind. Khullmann developed the concept of Dragon Breaks here and it is one of the most unique things about The Elder Scrolls. There is no canon, all of daggerfall's endings happened, The Elder Scrolls also is an open source universe. Ken Rolston pulled stuff from the mod Tamriel Rebuilt into Oblivion, and according to Kirkbride, some more small pieces of external lore may make an appearance in TES 6.

There is a lot of crazy elder scrolls stuff in every game, including Oblivion and Skyrim, most of it is kept in the background. (Fun fact: The Nordic rituals & their tomb paintings were entirely designed by Kirkbride for Skyrim, he still designs the lore behind the games.) Even the simple plotline of Alduin very much ties into Kirkbride's more metaphysical sections of the lore, in particular the concept of the Towers being discussed in Skyrim's first lore book.

Another tidbit, you will never see a main Elder Scrolls game in a beast land, The Elder Scrolls is purely the tale of the fall of man at the hands of the Thalmor, if you look through every game and look into the concept of the Towers this will become very obvious.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

all of daggerfall's endings happened

I always considered that the most stupid element of TES lore.

 

[DosBuster]

all of daggerfall's endings happened

I always considered that the most stupid element of TES lore.

The problem is that the nature of the Elder Scrolls forces those sorts of compromises, it's an open source universe, Bethesda's version is the canvas for you to build off. So, in that case, they can't say any player's choice is wrong since that would create a definite version of canon.

It all ties into the Elder Scrolls core themes of how we interpret history and how it's folded by those who write about it, instead of those who act it out. (technically the elder scrolls themselves could be totally off from what actually happened, but that's a dumb mindfuck to get into and luckily bethesda hasn't pulled that out)

 

[Popiel]

The problem is that the nature of the Elder Scrolls forces those sorts of compromises, it's an open source universe, Bethesda's version is the canvas for you to build off.

No, TESverse is not open source universe, that's what frustrated Kirkbride with his c0da and MKdrones with r/tesloosers want you to believe. Want to test your theory? Go and develop some TES related game and publish it. Bethesda will eat your ass.

Kirkbride, while he surely has interesting ideas, is sadly a little bit of a hack. And complete, unbearable jerk of a person.

 

[DosBuster]

The problem is that the nature of the Elder Scrolls forces those sorts of compromises, it's an open source universe, Bethesda's version is the canvas for you to build off.

No, TESverse is not open source universe, that's what frustrated Kirkbride with his c0da and MKdrones with r/tesloosers want you to believe. Want to test your theory? Go and develop some TES related game and publish it. Bethesda will eat your ass.

Kirkbride, while he surely has interesting ideas, is sadly a little bit of a hack. And complete, unbearable jerk of a person.

Yes, the games are not open source, that is true. However, the lore is a little different. Parts of Tamriel Rebuilt found their way into Oblivion lorebooks, I'll try and source up a link. Also, Kirkbride still is on good terms with Bethesda and still writes for them, as seen in how he wrote up lore design documents for Skyrim, one of which was posted on his tumblr and Kuhlmann's own shoutout of a good chunk of Skyrim's lore being Kirkbride's.

 

[Popiel]

What you posted does not prove that TES is open source universe, sticking to terminology you yourself introduced. Quite the opposite. Kirkbride does freelance work for Bethesda, writing some pieces of lore for their games, who are main, canon and orthodox source of knowledge about TESverse (books not included). MK did a lot work on Knights of the Nine DLC for example. But that's just it - he collaborates with Bethesda on their games and their world. His input is, quite obviously, valuable (because of many reasons talking about which is not purpose of this thread), yet still that does not make TESverse open source. It just, again, because of many reasons, amassed quite impressive and indeed unparalleled amount of fanfiction, fan made lore, and so on, and so on. This fan community became, because reasons, attached to MK and is indeed, quite ironically, bound by his own vision of how TES should look like. Controversy around Boethiah's Summoning Day proves that.

TES in not an open source universe. It belongs to Bethesda who generously let Kirkbride to work with them from time to time, and - but you would need to prove that, it's first time I see such a fact mentioned, and I'm deep in the subject so to speak - incorporates some creative content from outside into their world once in a while, but only such an act of incorporation makes something canon which was, to speak in kirkbridean, c0da. To say otherwise is self-gratifying lie especially popular among /tesloosers on r/teslore. To say otherwise is a way to make their often very silly and tryhardy fanfiction on par with established lore.

That some fans usually can make TES lore much more interesting than Bethesda hacks, and my headcanon is much superior to what's represented in Oblifail (I'm Cyrodiilfag), does not mean anything more than what it literally means. Canon and fanfiction. That's it. And yes, Kirkbride's worldbuilding and lorewriting talents were probably forever wasted, because he hadn't reached his full potential by the time of Morrowind.

I think that my perfect game would be written by Avellone in a world designed by Kirkbride, and turn-based mechanics made by Larian. Something to dream about.

 

[DosBuster]

There's no point in arguing this so let's agree to disagree.

One interesting tidbit, I noticed Kirkbride saying several things in c0da would be made "official" in tes 6, which is interesting. Kirkbride is an asshole though, but a very good writer.

EDIT: Actually, wait, I'll explain what I mean when I say 'open source'.
You have Todd Howard's interpretation of Elder Scrolls lore, you have Kirkbride's interpretation, you have my interpretation and you have your own interpretation. Each are totally valid, and each probably differ in some way, this is how it is intended to be, that is one of the main themes of The Elder Scrolls, interpretations of historical events.

 

[Zanzoken]

The intrigue surrounding Nerevar's death and the formation of the Tribunal in Morrowind is probably my favorite storytelling/worldbuilding in a game ever. Especially the Temple and its design to exercise control over the Dunmer people.

It's the first time I ever saw something in an RPG that was like -- wow, this is very believable because the characters are actually behaving the way people do in real life.

 

[Popiel]

The intrigue surrounding Nerevar's death and the formation of the Tribunal in Morrowind is probably my favorite storytelling/worldbuilding in a game ever. Especially the Temple and its design to exercise control over the Dunmer people.

It's the first time I ever saw something in an RPG that was like -- wow, this is very believable because the characters are actually behaving the way people do in real life.

Yes, Morrowind shines bright when it comes to backstory and all drama sorrounding death of Nerevar. Story of Nerevarine is in fact only a last accord of centuries long intrigue, and best part of it is that game doesn't force you to delve into it, as most other games would. Problem with Morrowind is that it's very - too - larpy because of some design choices.

EDIT: Actually, wait, I'll explain what I mean when I say 'open source'.
You have Todd Howard's interpretation of Elder Scrolls lore, you have Kirkbride's interpretation, you have my interpretation and you have your own interpretation. Each are totally valid, and each probably differ in some way, this is how it is intended to be, that is one of the main themes of The Elder Scrolls, interpretations of historical events.

What you describe as open source does not follow common definition of the term. Interpretations are all fine and dandy and we can argue about them, that's not a problem. Problem lies in content. c0da and whatever people write about their own headcanon are not the same as content of Bethesda games, and most people who argue that TESverse is open source in style promoted by orignial MK c0da believe that these two (canon stuff and fanfiction) are the same. They are not.

 

[Johannes]

AoD isn't good at worldbuilding. They tried too hard to be realistic, but they don't know enough of history or human behavior to follow through. It'd been more forgivable if they'd been a bit more tongue in cheek.

Please, explain to me what is that they don't understand about human behavior. If AoD is not belieavable, no cRPG is beliavable.

Maybe no cRPG is believable. But most don't try to act the part so seriously.

I can't recall the exact details of AoD too well, it's been half a year since I touched the game, but let's see...
Firstly the timeline is p. fucked - it was 300 years iirc since the war, but barely nothing's happened in those 10 generations. Pre-war houses and pre-war Imperial Guard still rule the scene, an apocalypse didn't bring any new players to dethrone them? There's a complex society with big armies but until now nobody of the serious outfits has managed to find the monastery, entrance to Zamedi, Al-Aqsa, the Hangar, Darius's helmet, the bottom of the Maadoran pit, or the Temple? What have they all been doing for the past centuries? Also a ridiculous amount of bandits compared to the level of civilization present. Considering there's very few recorder events between the war and the game time, saying it happened <100 years ago would've made more sense. And still been enough to kill off p. much anyone alive during it.
Then there's Maadoran - main city in the middle of a desert, and also next to a toxic pit. Look at a historical map and see if there's any precedent for desert cities like this. You have some, ofc, like Mecca for example, but that was made possible by an intercontinental trade route going thru there. And biggest cities of that time were surrounded by agriculture and some sort of water anyway. Nice city but very fantastic.
Also the setting is schizophrenic about whether things are getting better or worse, for ppl overall. Is this a post-apoc game of recovering civilization or about an age of decadence where things are falling apart? The game gives conflicting accounts in different places, which is understandable that ppl don't agree on it exactly. But there's no clear narrative to this. Even the title and the most common ending slides are at odds with each other.
Lastly the people, they're p. much all some sort of scheming tough guys, even if some are less smart than others. Next to no humor or compassion to be found. Maybe the local culture is fucked up like that, maybe it's plausible to be like that and still run a civilization, but regardless it's monotonous so not that good world building.
Also, ninjas. It's not just the game system but the whole setting that's at times focused on the fact that there are singular badasses out there (like Hamza) who can flip out and kill a bunch of armored men alone by themselves.


If you want awesome world building I recommend Geneforge.

 

[cherry blossom]

AoD is a reflection of the total of VD's marketing career. That is why it is so dry and grim all the time. Now just try to imagine the kinds of things he must have gone through and the horrors he has seen on a daily basis for 10+ years. If it weren't for his passion for CRPGs, he would long have gunned down the entire company.

 

[A horse of course]

If I'd made Age of Decadence I'd probably want to gun down my team too.

 

[Neanderthal]

I found it quite refreshin to not hav all that squeein an cheese in a game for once, almost every other RPG does bad impression o Joss Whedon. I'm sick o hearin fuckin word snarky, which usually means adolescent titterin over a bad pun.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I can't recall the exact details of AoD too well...

Clearly. The answers to all the questions you raised are in the game, from "what happened since the war" (a lot) to "why nobody found" (hint: they did). Anyway, you've been complaining about the game from day one and I doubt you like anything about it.

 

[Johannes]

I can't recall the exact details of AoD too well...

Clearly. The answers to all the questions you raised are in the game, from "what happened since the war" (a lot) to "why nobody found" (hint: they did). Anyway, you've been complaining about the game from day one and I doubt you like anything about it.

If I liked nothing about it I wouldn't bother complaining. Just don't see the point of focusing on the positives when that makes for boring discussion and you've already got enough sycophants to play that part. If you'll improve on the weak parts of the game in your future offerings (be it by taking my criticism to heart or by whatever other method) I'd be very happy.

And no, compare what happened in the game to 300 years of real history. AoD world is really in a stasis in comparison. And yes, people did find things but just didn't have the time to do anything productive with it until during the game. For that to be believable the timeline should be shorter or the population size much smaller.