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The Codex’s Best Computer RPGs (pre-Diablo)

Jason Liang

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Ultima V: Warriors of Destiny - 3 points
Kichikou Rance - 3 points (released December 1996)
Pool of Radiance 2 points
Darklands - 1 point
Wizardry 1 - Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord - 1 point

Not a RPG (for these purposes):
Star Control 2

Had I been asked, I would have made a case that Fantasy General (released 1996) has enough rpg elements to be considered, as well as similar games in the SRPG/ TRPG vein. Especially compared to Star Control 2.

My conscience is clear.
 
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Nazrim Eldrak

Scholar
Joined
Oct 2, 2015
Messages
270
Location
My heart
Points: 3
Knights of Xentar (Elf) 1991
  • My first JRPG

Points: 1
Amberstar (Thalion Software) 1992
  • I never got it while playing, but somehow I was still fascinated by it.
Points: 3
Might and Magic: Clouds of Xeen (New World Computing) 1992
  • My first CRPG ever

Points: 3
Might and Magic V: Darkside of Xeen (New World Computing) 1993
  • It was so cool to use my party for a new adventure.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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Terra da Garoa
Two points to each:

Wizardry I
Wizardry VII
Ultima Underworld I
Princess Maker 2
Daggerfall

Wish we could list more games, to give a shoutout to cool but not "the best" stuff like The Legacy: Realm of Terror and Mordor: Depths of Dejenol.
 

Deuce Traveler

2012 Newfag
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Grab the Codex by the pussy Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Lord_Potato and Unkillable Cat , we actually had a larger listing which included games like following:
1984
Lone Wolf: Flight from the Dark (Five Ways Software)

1986
OrbQuest (QWare)
Tera: La Cité des Crânes (Grafmodcolor)

1987
Karma (Loriciels)
Quarterstaff (Simulated Environment Systems)
Wrath of Denethenor (Sierra)

1988
Nippon (Markt und Technik)
Omega (Berkley)

1989
B.A.T. (Computer's Dream)
Deathbringer (Pandora)
Die Dunkle Dimension (German Design Group)
TaskMaker (Storm Impact)

1991
Dungeons of Avalon (Zeret Software)

1992
Mission: Thunderbolt (MegaCorp)

1994
Crystal Dragon (Magnetic Fields)
Istanbul Efsaneleri (SiliconWorx Software)
Towers: Lord Baniff's Deceit (JV Enterprises)

1995
Jaktar: Der Elfenstein (Game Object Design)

These did get cut, but we also added a few games last minute such as Captive 2 and Whale's Journey. We then started arguing over what was a commercial enough release, what had a large following at the time, and what was and wasn't a CRPG and decided to just go forward with what he had. Feel free to vote for a game not on the list as some have. Although the list isn't perfect, the Ring of Prestigious Gentlemen felt that the posted list was the best we could agree upon without having to go into another week or two of debates about whether or not the game was a CRPG or had enough popularity to have a chance of making it as more than just an outlier.

The following folks need to reread the rules or risk having some of their allocated points removed from the final tally:
k0syak
DJOGamer PT
Diggfinger
 

Gaznak

Learned
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The Fortress Unvanquishable
Tough choice here.

Legend: Four Crystals of Trazere (with sequel) - 2 points.
Hexx: Heresy of the Wizard - 2 points.
Demon's Winter - 2 points.
Might & Magic III - 4 points.

Outside the competition, not in the list and thus without rating - Crystal Dragon (Amiga, 1994). The best Dungeon Master-family game (dungeon crawler) ever made.
 

Decado

Old time handsome face wrecker
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Codex 2014
The reason I listed BAK and QFG1 as the two best is because if you just updated them for 2021 with new graphics and sound, and changed nothing else, they'd still be great. There are no mechanics that need fixing, no story issues that need to be reworked, no classes/spells/whatever that need to be nerfed or buffed.

Like, even for a really good game like Fallout 1 I'd say "This is a great game but here's what needs fixing . . ." and then I say all of the things that need fixing, like XYZ is unbalanced. Or, I'd say "The Goldbox games are great but they suffer from this issue in game mechanics . . . "

When I think really hard about BaK and QFG1, I can't think of anything that needs fixing. They simply work great as self-contained games that have existed for 20+ years.
 

mihai

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germany
5 points:
Wizardry 7

2 points:
Star Control II
Realms of Arkania: Blade of Destiny

1 point:
Ultima 6
 

Broseph

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Globohomo Gayplex
The reason I listed BAK and QFG1 as the two best is because if you just updated them for 2021 with new graphics and sound, and changed nothing else, they'd still be great. There are no mechanics that need fixing, no story issues that need to be reworked, no classes/spells/whatever that need to be nerfed or buffed.

Like, even for a really good game like Fallout 1 I'd say "This is a great game but here's what needs fixing . . ." and then I say all of the things that need fixing, like XYZ is unbalanced. Or, I'd say "The Goldbox games are great but they suffer from this issue in game mechanics . . . "

When I think really hard about BaK and QFG1, I can't think of anything that needs fixing. They simply work great as self-contained games that have existed for 20+ years.
I said this about BaK in Deuce's earlier thread about RPGs that deserve a remake. You could just replace the polygonal landscapes with beautiful modern 3D environments, do some AI upscaling for the rest and call it a day. The UI in that game is incredibly intuitive for its time. Absolute classic.
 

ghostdog

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Tough choice...

(3) Dark Sun: Shattered Land
(3) Betrayal at Krondor
(2) Might and Magic: World of Xeen
(1) Quest for Glory 1
(1) The Dark Heart of Uukrul
 

Deuce Traveler

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
This was tough for me too. I played maybe a third of the games on the list and have a lot of love for most of those I played.

2 points each to the following:
Ultima 4
Darklands
Pool of Radiance
Quest for Glory 4
Ultima Underworld

The Magic Candle 1, Exile 1, Sword of Aragon, Might and Magic 1, Might and Magic: World of Xeen, and Wizardry 6 were also seriously considered. So many good games...
 

Dyspaire

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Relative
Two points to each:

Wizardry I
Wizardry VII
Ultima Underworld I
Princess Maker 2
Daggerfall

Wish we could list more games, to give a shoutout to cool but not "the best" stuff like The Legacy: Realm of Terror and Mordor: Depths of Dejenol.

Yeah there's at least 20 games on that list that I felt deserved at least one vote.
 

OSK

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Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Exile: Escape from the Pit - 4 points
Exile III: Ruined World - 4 points
Exile II: Crystal Souls - 1 point
The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall - 1 point

Yeah, I'm biased. A shareware copy of Exile: Escape from the Pit was my first ever RPG. The trilogy was also the first games I pirated. I recently finished Avernum: Escape from the Pit, and I'm currently playing through Avernum II: Crystal Souls.
 
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Rincewind

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First of all, I very much applaud your efforts Deuce Traveler, so what I'm going to say is by no means aimed at you. I would just like to point out that all such "everybody is invited" polls are by their nature popularity polls, so the resulting list will by no means represent the "best" cRPGs of this era, but the most played and most popular ones. If what you really wanted to do was a popularity poll, then I rest my case (but also urge you to reconsider using the word "best" in the title).

However, if we are determined to come up with the "best" RPGs, only those who have a comprehensive view of the games released in the 1980-1996 period should be allowed to enter the poll. Otherwise, how could you say with any degree of confidence that game "X" is "best" if you only played 5-10 games out of the possible 200+ candidates?. That's a lot of games, so most people would naturally not be allowed to vote. On the other hand, with the current way of doing things, the opinions of the handful of people who do qualify would be grossly drowned out by the rest of voters. In effect, you're basically adding a lot of random noise to the actually useful data (say 50+ people who played less than 10 games from this era, versus those 4-5 monocled individuals who played 100+).

Literary awards, talent scout competitions, etc. have long recognised this problem and therefore have a panel of qualified judges. The main point to note here is that the opinion of non-experts will always drown out the opinion of experts in popularity based polls -- just because there's several orders of magnitude fewer experts in any given field. E.g. with literary awards the judges just have to read all the submissions for a given year, and that's a hard requirement -- you can't just read a single book and put it forward as the "best" of that year, that's nonsensical.

Of course, there's is nothing wrong with pure popularity contests either. But the votes of experts or judges should never be mixed with that of the general public, otherwise the results will be rather meaningless.

To make everyone happy, I propose to keep going with the current poll but call it the "popular vote". In addition to that, also publish the results of the members of the R.P.G. club, or whoever else qualifies by having played at least 50% of the games from the list (and I'm being generous here). In which case, I will also add my own random noise to the popularity pool +M (as I'm definitely not qualified for the "true" poll) .
 
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KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
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Nov 23, 2016
Messages
13,041
Exile: Escape from the Pit - 4 points
Exile III: Ruined World - 4 points
Exile II: Crystal Souls - 1 point
The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall - 1 point

Yeah, I'm biased. A shareware copy of Exile: Escape from the Pit was my first ever RPG. The trilogy was also the first games I pirated. I recently finished Avernum: Escape from the Pit, and I'm currently playing through Avernum: Crystal Souls.
You know, I still like the look & feel of exile over the later Avernum.

"Why did we decide to rework Exile? Well, we love that old game, but, the truth is, it's not so popular anymore. It's just too crude and old, especially compared to our newer work. The sad thing about that is that the game contains a lot of really good design. That's why we decided to do Avernum. We felt, simply, that Exile deserved a lot better."

I loved the look and when I saw Wyvern that looked similar & made me think ACS online I had to try it. (The newer version of wyvern on mobile tries my patience though and i hate the interface. OLD CAN BE GOLD!!!)
 
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otteaux

Novice
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
24
TWO POINTS

Might and Magic 2: Gates to Another World (New World Computing)
Starflight 2: Trade Routes of the Cloud Nebula (Binary Systems)
Might and Magic: World of Xeen (New World Computing)
Star Control 2: The Ur-Quan Masters (Toys for Bob)
Wizardry 7: Crusaders of the Dark Savant (Sir-Tech)

I tried to base this one the games that gave me the most enjoyment at the time I played them. I can remember playing M&M II with a couple of buddies decades ago like it was last week. I revisited the entire M&M series a couple years ago, and they were just as good as I remember.

EDIT: FIXED FOR MATH - I BLAME THE WHISKEY
 
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mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
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Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
For me, the best RPGs have always been about a few elements. The main one being interesting character generation where you can define a nuanced character from a number of viable options (which probably goes a long way to explaining my love for the Pathfinder games and why games with predefined protagonists fall flat). The secondary element for me is the ability to be somewhat freeform in how the game is approached, allowing you to take on challenges in the order you feel like, grind, push the story, never engage with it, or whatever else you might want to do. Many more games hit this second element and can do it fairly well, but not all of them.

Also, I support the limitations of 5 points max to a game and a maximum of 5 games. It actually pushes you to consider what's important to you in the games and rank them whereas there are any number of games I'd love to recognize, etc. and it would be very easy to pick out say 10 games and give them all 1 point, or whatever else. It dilutes the list even more so than some of the other issues have brought up, but issues like Rincewind brings up are rather beyond pedantic because unless you've got some sort of professional games archivist or someone completely insane like CRPG Addict, there's no reasonable way of getting around it.

Anyway, after much consideration, here are my completely biased (yet objectively more correct than yours) results:

1 pt - Phantasie: Phantasie had a great feeling of adventure and progression both in dungeons and the overland map. Also like many older games, it allowed you to approach the game in whatever order you felt like even if there was an intended order. Most importantly to me, and why the game stuck in my mind for all these years, the game has a ton of races you can use to build your party, it just sucks that most of them are dumped behind RNG instead of being given as directly selectable choices.

2 pt - Wizardry 6: Wizardry 6 was great for introducing DW Bradley's expansion of the classes and races of Wizardry while still delivering a great blobber experience. The ability to push through the game as base classes, or engage in crazy sperg multiclassing make this a great and tight experience that doesn't overstay its welcome.

2 pt - Quest for Glory 1 (Hero's Quest) - So You Want to be a Hero: This is pretty different than the other games in this list, but this game let you define your hero between several different class paths, including a form of "multiclassing" by giving your hero skills that normally belong to a different class. It also allowed you to do other things that fit with your hero's unique abilities like a thief hero generating funds by burgling people's houses and finding the thieves' guild, or playing games of magical skill with your magic user. This really helped provide more of a simulation of the lone hero's life with some adventure game elements and this sort of approach is probably the same reason I love Dragon's Dogma as much as I do. Quest for Glory 1 is such a classic that I kept floppy drives in every computer build I had for years and then once the QfG Anthology came out, I kept optical drives in them up until they were released on GOG. This entire series is one of my all time favourites and if you've never played them, you really should if you have even a glimmer of storyfaggotry in yourself.

2 pt - Quest for Glory 4 - Shadows of Darkness: At the time, this game was pushing multimedia with both voiced and unvoiced versions and great music. This game continues with Quest for Glory's support for a variety of hero types that can experience a variety of facets of the game world and approach things quite differently. I also thought it effectively blended a serious Transylvania/Ravenloft sort of setting with the series' trademark humour and light-heartedness and some Cthulhu elements. Fantastic game.

3 pt - Pool of Radiance: While all the Gold Box games deserve recognition in some manner, Pool of Radiance delivers a very tight experience with exploration, the ability to approach the game more or less in the order of your choosing and adventure around the city and overland map. It also delivered fun tactical combat that considered positioning and what each of your characters are doing in a way that the more abstract presentation of blobbers and games like Phantasie simply don't or can't. The lack of tactical positioning is one of the main shortfalls of blobbers for me, although they can still be great and why I don't rate them higher (although this was approached in interesting ways by later games like Wizardry 8 and Bard's Tale 4).
 

LJ40

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Wizardry/Ultima/Goldbox
Two points each:

Pool of Radiance (SSI)
Wizardry 7: Crusaders of the Dark Savant (Sir-Tech)
Exile: Escape from the Pit (Spiderweb Software)
Might and Magic: World of Xeen (New World Computing)
Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall (Bethesda)
 

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