Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

The Death of Immersive Sims?

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Well, I do agree that it doesn't matter what label they slap on it as long as the game is good.

I'm content as we are anyway. I already experienced Thief and Deus Ex and System Shock and Ultima Underworld. Since there is no way to top perfection I'm content with them churning out their sewer shit. I just hate the gay term.
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
730
I like "0451-Games".
I don't.
  • Even though it was 451 in SS1 and 45100 in SS2 first, everyone emembers and references Deus Ex's 0451 because it's the one that sold the most copies
  • Ultima Underworld, Thief, and Arx Fatalis are classic "Immersive Sims" with no 451
  • Bioshock and other pretenders include the code as a reference but don't deserve the mantle
  • Errant Signal calls them 0451 Games, and I don't like to give him undue credibility (regardless of my opinion on his critical content, he loves to make up new terminology for things that already have names, like when he abused the term "kinaesthetics" from physical therapy to mean "game feel", when it is in truth a component that makes up the latter rather than encompassing it entirely)
I don't mind "Immersive Sim" as long as people understand they're describing a design philosophy rather than a genre --Ultima Underworld and Thief share very little genre-wise other than the first person person perspective, as I noted earlier in the thread, but they're still unified in their goal to promote player agency through simulated systems-driven gameplay.

Of course, "Immersive Sim" is quickly becoming a meaningless buzzword as people describe any game with reading material and a hacking minigame as an Immersive Sim. The moniker itself is pretty misleading, and I've suggested Underworld-like and LGS-style game as alternatives in the past, but it's really too late to change anything at this point.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,813
Retarded marketing people and their stupid terms. It grates on me to see noble dexers mimic them like apes unthinkingly.

It wasn't coined by a marketing person and was only used internally by developers until journalists made inquiries. :roll:
 

Curratum

Guest
Meet the newest and most immersive among immersive sims in town, boys and girls!



Did you also know that Wolfenstein 3D is am immersive sim because you can slurp blood pools and bone meal off the floor when you're below 10 health?
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,575
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
First person adventure, fps, fps/rpg hybrid, RPG are all acceptable. I've ranted on this dozens of times but "immersive sim" doesn't mean fucking anything. Every first person game is immersive. And nothing in them is particularly simulationist. Nothing. Like, what are they a simulation of? Fucking nothing. If I take an FPS with a skill system and add 100 idiotic emails and recorded messages it magically changes genre? Fuck you.
Don't be an idiot. It means something as an industry term, not because of its dictionary definition. They could have called it "spooz bazoo" and it would mean exactly the same thing; this is just the term that became widely used and happened to stick.

What's next? You're going to say "role-playing game" doesn't mean anything either, because in Donkey Kong you play the role of Mario?
 

Silly Germans

Guest
The problem is that the term is misleading and barely aligns with the normal meaning. When i hear simulation, i think about those military flying games, where you control a plane with tons of buttons, and movement that tries to emulate real physics.

And please stop saying sentences like "to promote player agency through simulated systems-driven gameplay". What on earth is that even supposed to mean ? It sounds like 100 % marketing pr and is so unspecific that you could plaster it on any goddamn game.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,575
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The problem is that the term is misleading and barely aligns with the normal meaning. When i hear simulation, i think about those military flying games, where you control a plane with tons of buttons, and movement that tries to emulate real physics.
It's only a problem until you understand that it is a label, not a dictionary definition. Now that you know, the problem is solved.
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
730
And please stop saying sentences like "to promote player agency through simulated systems-driven gameplay". What on earth is that even supposed to mean ? It sounds like 100 % marketing pr and is so unspecific that you could plaster it on any goddamn game.

This really isn't that hard.

Mechanics: actions the player can take (e.g. run, jump, shoot)
Systems: rules governing interactions in the game (e.g. physics, damage, ammo count)
Simulation: recreating some aspect of a real-life phenomenon in gameplay (e.g. light- and sound-based stealth in Thief)
Player Agency: the player's ability to exert influence over the game and make choices about how to progress through it

All games have both mechanics (inputs) and systems (rules), but some are more mechanics-driven and others more systems-driven. A platformer like Super Mario or a shooter like Doom is mostly driven by its mechanics, as the player is primarily challenged by their ability to use their basic actions to overcome obstacles in their path. A cRPG like Ultima or Wizardry is more systems-driven, as the challenge derives more from understanding the rules governing character statistics and combat. When Looking Glass Studios created Ultima Underworld, they sought to bring the dungeon crawler cRPG into the real-time first person perspective, replacing grid-based movement and dicerolls with simulated systems wherever possible. The game has physics (that can be manipulated with spells), dynamic lighting from torches and spells that illuminate the surroundings and draw attention to the player, encounters with persistent enemies that can be avoided with stealth or approached from multiple angles within the environment, a wide set of items with durability and weight, NPC bartering, sleep and hunger needs, and a list of stats and skills that affect how the player can interact with the game world. These are all simulated systems that drive gameplay, and they are constructed to give the player numerous options for how they want to interact with the game world. The fidelity of its simulation was an attempt to recreate the depth of interaction in pen and paper RPGs, which is what affords the player agency in how they solve problems presented by the game master.

While Thief is not an RPG and takes place in a linear sequence of missions, it works on the same principles: the player must use the simulated light- and sound-based stealth systems to circumvent enemies while making their way through open level environments that offer multiple approaches to the player's goals. Same for System Shock and Deus Ex, or Arkane's tribute album in Arx Fatalis, Dishonored, and Prey. You absolutely could not say the same of Super Mario, Doom, Diablo, Tetris, Devil May Cry, or even Bioshock which is often undeservedly lumped together with these games. You just have to know what the words actually mean.
 

Ol' Willy

Arcane
Zionist Agent Vatnik
Joined
May 3, 2020
Messages
24,765
Location
Reichskommissariat Russland ᛋᛋ
I wonder, can we define Hitman games as immersive sims? Level design is fairly open, there are multiple approaches to finish each mission and player freedom. And you can be really creative there, look for example at CJ or Kotti speedruns and challenges.
 

Silly Germans

Guest
And please stop saying sentences like "to promote player agency through simulated systems-driven gameplay". What on earth is that even supposed to mean ? It sounds like 100 % marketing pr and is so unspecific that you could plaster it on any goddamn game.

This really isn't that hard.

Mechanics: actions the player can take (e.g. run, jump, shoot)
Systems: rules governing interactions in the game (e.g. physics, damage, ammo count)
Simulation: recreating some aspect of a real-life phenomenon in gameplay (e.g. light- and sound-based stealth in Thief)
Player Agency: the player's ability to exert influence over the game and make choices about how to progress through it

All games have both mechanics (inputs) and systems (rules), but some are more mechanics-driven and others more systems-driven. A platformer like Super Mario or a shooter like Doom is mostly driven by its mechanics, as the player is primarily challenged by their ability to use their basic actions to overcome obstacles in their path. A cRPG like Ultima or Wizardry is more systems-driven, as the challenge derives more from understanding the rules governing character statistics and combat. When Looking Glass Studios created Ultima Underworld, they sought to bring the dungeon crawler cRPG into the real-time first person perspective, replacing grid-based movement and dicerolls with simulated systems wherever possible. The game has physics (that can be manipulated with spells), dynamic lighting from torches and spells that illuminate the surroundings and draw attention to the player, encounters with persistent enemies that can be avoided with stealth or approached from multiple angles within the environment, a wide set of items with durability and weight, NPC bartering, sleep and hunger needs, and a list of stats and skills that affect how the player can interact with the game world. These are all simulated systems that drive gameplay, and they are constructed to give the player numerous options for how they want to interact with the game world. The fidelity of its simulation was an attempt to recreate the depth of interaction in pen and paper RPGs, which is what affords the player agency in how they solve problems presented by the game master.

While Thief is not an RPG and takes place in a linear sequence of missions, it works on the same principles: the player must use the simulated light- and sound-based stealth systems to circumvent enemies while making their way through open level environments that offer multiple approaches to the player's goals. Same for System Shock and Deus Ex, or Arkane's tribute album in Arx Fatalis, Dishonored, and Prey. You absolutely could not say the same of Super Mario, Doom, Diablo, Tetris, Devil May Cry, or even Bioshock which is often undeservedly lumped together with these games. You just have to know what the words actually mean.

Words have not a single clear cut definition or meaning in most cases. I would need to know/use the words in the exact same manner as you do, to resolve the meaning as you state it. This is the reason why it is pr garbage, it is not self-explanatory, nor does it provide enough context by itself. You wouldn't need a paragraph to explain it if it was a sensible sentence/description. You sacrifice comprehensibility for fancy sounding pr. That is what i don't like about it. It also doesn't provide any concrete information about the game.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
It's meaningless drivel, and before Rogue is triggered again, it doesn't matter if the word was used internally by developers first; now it sounds like meaningless drivel. Systems and mechanics. Same shit as 'proactive leveraging of synergies' in business.
 

JDR13

Arcane
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
3,933
Location
The Swamp
Meet the newest and most immersive among immersive sims in town, boys and girls!



Did you also know that Wolfenstein 3D is am immersive sim because you can slurp blood pools and bone meal off the floor when you're below 10 health?


:nocountryforshitposters:
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,575
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I wonder, can we define Hitman games as immersive sims? Level design is fairly open, there are multiple approaches to finish each mission and player freedom. And you can be really creative there, look for example at CJ or Kotti speedruns and challenges.
I'm sure some would say an immersive sim must be in first person, but I think Hitman fits the profile well enough.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,813
I'm sure some would say an immersive sim must be in first person, but I think Hitman fits the profile well enough.

First person's not a requirement; Spector considers the Ultima games he worked on to be immersive sims.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom