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The Death of Immersive Sims?

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by Infinitron, May 19, 2017.

  1. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    octavius
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    Shooters?
    Personally I gave up on them when realizing just how scripted and tedious Pacific Assault and Quake 4 was. Funnily enough that was back in 2004/2005, same time as the CRPG decline really started as evidenced in this thread.
     
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  2. Ash Arcane

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    Right on, was going to say shooters are an example of a genre having declined so hard, both first and third person perspective, but really you've got to be completely devoid of standards to not see it so I didn't bother.
    The stealth genre? Splinter Cell: Conviction/Blacklist? NuThiaf? Hitman: Absolution? Tenchu Z?
    Platformers? NuTomb Raider, Uncharted, Assassin's Creed, pure decline garbage like that.
    Many genres, like varying forms of strategy, are pretty much dead outside of struggling niches.
    RPGs? It's well established here what has happened in that regard.
    Even racing games are often stripped of content and full of decline shit. NFS: Most Wanted (2005) vs NSF: Most Wanted (2013) being a prime example of that since so much was stripped and so much decline crap was added.
    Hack and Slash? Nu Devil May Cry, Darksiders, Diablo 3?
    Immersive Sims? Absolutely nothing on the classics.
    Open world games? There's a shit ton, like the shitty Ubisoft collectathons, and generally speaking they're not as good as older open world games.

    The decline is so ingrained in every facet of the industry, there really are few exceptions.
     
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  3. Declinator Arbiter

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    Gaming has no "identity as an art form". If it did have one then it's better off crushed.

    It's a shame that there is no longer much in the hole between AAA and indies (outside of certain outliers like Paradox). I believe it is inevitable that since there is money to be had in niche gaming there will be companies going for that money. A fledling attempt would be Ninja Theory's "independent AAA" game Hellblade though they obviously focus on the wrong stuff (cinematics, graphics). Leave AAA to their shameless money grabbing ways and forget about ever getting anything more than "pretty nice" out of them.

    Blind buying a game has always been a terrible choice. Sure, nowadays the bottom of the barrel is pretty damn deep but that is only natural since indies have a much easier time without the need for anything physical to sell (e.g. boxes, manuals etc.).

    Invisible Inc? Shadow Tactics? The newest Hitman? MGS V? Not exactly Thief but not a bad haul.
    I don't care about platformers so can't tell what's good today but I wouldn't call any of those you mentioned platformers...
    Which forms of strategy are those? 4X and Grand Strategy at least live on. RIP RTS of course. The tactical strategy games ala X-Com and Jagged Alliance are mostly indies outside of the reboot XCOM I suppose but Xenonauts was very nice despite being heavily derivative.
    Casual racing games may be less than they used to be though that could be argued (Forza Horizon etc.) but racing sims are better than ever.
    First of all, Diablo has nothing to do with DMC and Darksiders though they may both come under the umbrella term hack and slash. Personally I only call Diablo-likes hack and slash. As far as melee action goes, Soulsborne, Monster Hunter, Nioh, MGR:R...No problem there.
     
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  4. Ash Arcane

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    Most of what you mentioned is very recent. Gaming has gotten (a little) better from the dark ages of pure decline, as I mentioned.

    And those games are meant to be primarily platformers, as in that is what you spend the most time doing. If you don't play the genre why would you give your shitty ill-informed opinion? They have action too, they're (shitty) action-platformers yes, but that's a standard hybrid for the genre. Even Mario had killing dudes too. chucking turtle shells and blocks about, firing fire balls, jumping on heads...

    And yes, hack and slash has gotten better/recovered but that's only if you include the soulsbourne games and its various clones. Bit of an undefined genre though. I consider the soulsborne games more as ARPGs than hack and slash, but either is probably valid. Anyhow, it's a bit of an outlier genre in that the decline hasn't hit as hard, but another series here that declined into shit was Ninja Gaiden, which is a shame. NG: Black was pretty damn good. Replayed it a few months back.
     
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  5. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    I think Dark Messiah of Might&Magic from 2006 may by the only really good post 2004 game I've played. Half of the years since 2004 I've been retro gaming, though, but still...
     
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  6. Alienman Arcane Patron

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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
    Have you guys even tried Splinter Cell Blacklist? It's not a bad game at all. They brought back body moving and such, and the combat, if you ever get caught up in it is fun and deadly.
     
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  7. Ash Arcane

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    I also forgot survival horrors and horror games, which have devolved into a walking sim jump scare hybrid genre targeting retarded youtube lets play-ers, or turned into popamole cover shooters.
     
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  8. AwesomeButton Personally falsified the US election results Patron

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    PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I admit I haven't tried it, the last one I played was Double Agent in 2008. But I don't have a ready opinion of Blacklist. All I know is that Conviction was bad, and it took roughly 6 hours to complete. I know because I watched a friend do it in one sitting.
     
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  9. GrainWetski Arcane

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    Gotta love the useless "immersive sim" crap.

    Putting Gone Homo and Firewatch next to LGS games.. Seems like quite the genre of completely fucking different games or "games", as it were in the case of the former 2.
     
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  10. AwesomeButton Personally falsified the US election results Patron

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    PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Anyone who uses "immersive sim" to describe System Shock 2/Halflife clones is a retard not worth listening to.
     
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  11. Jasede Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron Sad Loser

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    It's a gay word we never ever used back in the day. In fact I fondly remember the "is SS2 an FPS, RPG, RPG/FPS or a FPS-adventure?" threads which always got very passionate. Not a soul called them this made up term that was invented a few years ago.

    For reference, first person adventure is what Nintendo called Metroid Prime.
     
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  12. Jiggy Boobles TESTOSTERONIC As Fuck™ Patron

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    As I said several pages ago, it's a made up millennial bullshit marketing term that doesn't mean anything. Like "Retina display" or "MOBA" or "Ultrapixel" or some bullshit.

    Edit: That was in the Prey thread actually I think.
     
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  13. Roguey Codex Staff Sawyerite

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    It's lovely how one can keep explaining the origin of a term and someone will still insist it isn't true. +M
     
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  14. Ash Arcane

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    Doug Church in the mid-90s is cited as the true origin, if I recall, but retards gonna retard. "I was ignorant of the term and the design philosophy back in the day, and probably still am now, therefore it's bullshit!".

    But yeah, I do tire of people placing the likes of Gone Home under the same banner as LGS games. The similarities are very, very loosely superficial.
     
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  15. Jasede Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron Sad Loser

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    Doesn't matter if some tiny group used that horrible word 20 years ago; we never did, nor did any gaming publication which, at the time, I used to read.

    Like, I can accept that it is correct in some metaphysical way, but think of it this way: water is dihydrogen monoxide. But we always called it water, despite it /technically/ being called dihydrogen monoxide. Now some people are suddenly throwing around the term dihydrogen monoxide as if that made them any smarter; we all know we're still just talking about fucking water.
     
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  16. HansDampf Arcane

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    FPS-RPG is too broad. If you don't like "Immersive Sim" you could call them 0451-Games, like the voice from the video.
     
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  17. Carrion Arcane Patron

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    But if no one can properly define what water is, then surely using a term like dihydrogen monoxide has its benefits.

    The fact that the term "immersive sim" even has to be used is pretty much just another sorry example of the decline. Back in the day people didn't talk about immersive sims because everyone expected games to get even better and build upon all the stuff that was introduced in the Looking Glass games. Then everything went to shit and that particular brand of games was reduced to a niche instead of being a blueprint for the future.
     
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  18. Jiggy Boobles TESTOSTERONIC As Fuck™ Patron

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    Exactly. Like how there shouldn't need to be a term like "Old-school RPG", all RPGs should be good.
     
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  19. Roguey Codex Staff Sawyerite

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    I reject the idea that every game should try to be a world simulation. :rpgcodex:
     
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  20. Ash Arcane

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    It's difficult to say Bloodlines is an Immersive Sim. It has immersive design? Yes, many cRPGs/games in general do. It's first person and RPG? So? It doesn't share a lot of core values. If it were made by LGS things would be a lot different. Biggest fundamental difference is the distinct lack of fucks (or lack of design monocles) given about gameplay and simulated interactivity in Bloodlines, period. Immersive Sims are typically more gameplay-centric than story-centric (See: UU, Shock, Thief), while Bloodlines is the opposite and is a atmospheric socialising simulator...or may as well be because the gameplay is such shit while the characters, writing etc are great.
    The only classic Immersive Sim that came close to being a predominantly storyfag game was Deus Ex, but even that's like a even split in design focus.

    Edit: to be more specific, Immersive Sims have a heavier focus on player-driven storytelling via gameplay (and a heavy focus on gameplay in general), almost always heavy focus on deep interactivity with the world, and there's certain design intricacies unique to the Immersive Sim that's not present in Bloodlines, e.g no third person camera switching without good reason, execution of simulated tutorials, stuff like that. It's clear that Bloodlines drew some inspiration from games like Deus Ex...but it certainly didn't hit the mark on a lot of things, yet I'm not sure if it were actually trying either rather than be its own thing to some extent.
    Oceanhouse? Would this (well-executed) heavily scripted linear walking sim level be in an Immersive Sim? I think not. The lines are blurry though, as Bloodlines does share a lot in common. New Vegas is more an Immersive Sim than Bloodlines however, I'd say.
     
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  21. HansDampf Arcane

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    Not sure what I wrote there. Bloodlines is definitely not an 0451-game and I agree pretty much with everything you've said.
     
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  22. Athelas Arcane

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    Bloodlines has a bunch of very arcade-y boss fights that literally lock the door behind you (and you can't lockpick it, lol) and quest-related items and NPC's that only spawn in the game world when you initiate their respective quests. That's not just a departure from immersive sim design, it's also a departure from Troika's previous games. I wonder if Activision publishing the game and the obvious goal of trying to attract a wider audience had anything to do with it.

    Besides that, Bloodlines differs from immersive sims in that it has more traditional RPG elements. There's more of an emphasis on passing hard skillchecks to succeed in dialogue or lockpicking compared to say, Deus Ex. Damage is also more random and some of the systems (such as stealth) seem to be more 'dice-rolley'.
     
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  23. Roguey Codex Staff Sawyerite

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    When it comes to spawns, that's more likely a result of being in permanent crunch mode after only a few months. The fewer ways a quest can be broken, the easier it is on them.
     
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  24. Mustawd Arcane

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    I find this to be the biggest issue. Devs are trying to walk that fine line between casual enough to pick up and complex/old school enough to still retain the core gaming audience, where they will live with some of the casualness as long as there is some good meat still there. And that is hard as fuck to do.
     
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  25. anvi Cipher Village Idiot

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    Big budget games are crap. The current golden age is only thanks to all the shitty indie devs out there. Most of them are shit, but occasionally one with promise comes along, and that is the only speck of light in this industry.
     
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