Official RPG Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Decline The Demise of the American RPG: Why So Few Top US RPGs?

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Humanophage, May 4, 2018.

  1. Molina Learned

    Molina
    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    362
    Sorry, I lose my book of anthropolgy from 1868 ""Bringing the values of the French Republic to primitive peoples". So, what is a "negroïd" face ?
     
    • Funny x 1
    • Edgy x 1
    • Informative x 1
    • Racist x 1
    • Doggy x 1
    ^ Top  
  2. Cabazone Educated

    Cabazone
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2007
    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    France
    Frankly, in PC-centric genres, the prevalence of console in the gaming habits of the country is probably today one of the main factors of why said country doesn't produce that many games in these genres, as it has already been said.

    However, I also fancy another hypothesis : the opportunity cost of these games is far greater in a country like the United States which is one of the main players in the high-budget part of the industry than it is in most of European countries (with France being, perhaps, the only exception).
    Think about it : you are an aspiring game developer. In the United States, you can join a lot of big studios, create games which people will actually hear about and make quite a few bucks (less than in other industries for sure, but nothing to spit on). In Sweden, Russia or Germany, you don't have as many opportunities, so you'll be more likely to end up making low or mid-budget games for a niche market (and, thus, increase your probability of producing a game worthy of Codex respect).
    Same thing if you are an investor: in America, you have many teams (or potential teams) that you know are capable of producing a game for the mass market. In most European countries, they are far fewer, and the most visible are already well funded, so it becomes more reasonable to put money into a mid-budget game for a less saturated market, which can still prove very profitable.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  3. Lurker47 Learned

    Lurker47
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2017
    Messages:
    720
    Location:
    Texas
    The fact that Lisa is on that list and is representing the U.S of A (and also not doing like, 3 seconds of research to confirm that the creator of it is American and just leaving a "?" instead) for good RPG's is just painful :decline:
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  4. Nael Arcane

    Nael
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    11,379
    Location:
    Indy
    GOG.com/Steam opened up a floodgate to distribute to the American market that didn't exist before. American market is still by far the largest. Even if you combine Europe. So naturally every game developer in the world, large and small is going to take advantage of that.

    It's simple as that.

    You can close out the thread now.
     
    ^ Top  
  5. Beastro Arcane

    Beastro
    Joined:
    May 11, 2015
    Messages:
    6,098
    Gonna be "something something wide, flat nose, something something" prolly.
     
    ^ Top  
  6. Mikeal Magister

    Mikeal
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Messages:
    2,571
    Location:
    Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
    Wait a sec. "AoD" and "DR" are Canadian productions? I always thought that Czechs made them.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    ^ Top  
  7. Roguey Codex Staff Sawyerite

    Roguey
    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    30,223
    Iron Tower is international really.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Racist Racist x 1
    ^ Top  
  8. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2018
    Messages:
    35,277
    "The more typically Negroid has undulating supraorbital ridges, sharp upper orbital margins, a rounded glabella, a plain frontonasal junction, and a wide interorbital distance"

    "Human Skeleton in Forensic Medicine", Krogman and Iscan.

    hope that helps, champ.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  9. ilitarist Learned Illiterate Village Idiot

    ilitarist
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2016
    Messages:
    857
    Don't see any decline in American dominance.

    USA still has more games than any other country. Japan is probably the closest competition and it was so for ages. Japanese games are also much more popular in their home country and thus it's easier for them to get into non-conformist lists and Codex is obviously non-conformist in a weird way - the list lacks anything from an American developer Jeff Vogel and, naturally, ignores Bethesda because we're edgy enough.

    Also this list of strategy games includes a lot of crap while most American strategy games are all of decent quality.

    Another thing - many of those companies are based elsewhere while the designer is still American one. Like Ultimate General series is produced by Ukrainian developers but the guy in charge is DarthMod guy who is certainly not Ukrainian and probably is American. Same for Gary Grigsby - mabey developer is in UK but the designer is Californian. For this you have obvious economic reasons.
     
    • [citation needed] [citation needed] x 1
    • retadred retadred x 1
    ^ Top  
  10. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

    Self-Ejected
    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Messages:
    5,274
    You forgot first-rank Canadian developer, Beamdog. According to Steam and GoG, they have developed some of the greatest RPGs of all-time: BG, BG2, IWD, PS:T and NWN.
     
    • Funny x 5
    • nice x 1
    • incline x 1
    • Despair x 1
    • Salute x 1
    ^ Top  
  11. Iznaliu Arbiter

    Iznaliu
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2016
    Messages:
    3,686
    That might be true, but if it is, it's certainly far from the overwhelming dominance that they once enjoyed. Half of those games are probably insignificant shovelware that nobody will care about or remember in 5 years' time.
     
    ^ Top  
  12. ilitarist Learned Illiterate Village Idiot

    ilitarist
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2016
    Messages:
    857
    When was that dominance, 80's? In the 90's RPG market was dominated by JRPGs. By 2000's you had a lot of European developers.
     
    • Yes Yes x 1
    • No No x 1
    • [citation needed] [citation needed] x 1
    • WTF am I reading WTF am I reading x 1
    ^ Top  
  13. *-*/\--/\~ Arbiter

    *-*/\--/\~
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2014
    Messages:
    797
    Because it is unreasonable to expect that one of like 50 countries capable of producing games should be making a disproportionate amount of them? 'Murica is much less speshul than you think.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  14. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2018
    Messages:
    35,277
    Nope, it's still an overwhelming dominance.
    Count how many games on this page are either created by an American studio or an American studio's subsidiary: https://store.steampowered.com/sale/2017_best_sellers/
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  15. Humanophage Arcane

    Humanophage
    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    2,819
    It does have more games, but they are quite low on the ladder. Besides, it should have more games, what's with having a much bigger population than any other country on the list, even if you only count whites and Asians as being interested in making intelligent games.

    I disagree about the quality of the strategies. What's so good about GalCiv III, Starcraft II, Banished, Civilization VI, and Offworld Trading Company? The Paradox games certainly beat them handily, and there are other clearly better entries like Eador or Rimworld, albeit the former is oldish.

    I agree that some key developers may be American, and that fact is missing, though I tried to be detailed for RPGs. For example, key designer for Darkest Dungeons is US-born, but his studio is always described as Canadian. It does probably make sense to change it to American.

    Jeff Vogel didn't make any especially good games in the period between 2012 and 2016. Geneforge 5 is from 2008, while Avernum 6 is from 2009. I presume he would have been on the list if either of those came after 2011. Avadon isn't very good and was a downgrade compared to older games, so it is understandable that Avadon 3 is only on the 97th position and Avadon 2 is even lower.

    Well, you will observe that none of those prominent American games are good RPGs. They are chiefly action games.

    Here are all the RPGs and MMORPGs from this link, unless I am missing something:
    Platinum: Divinity: Original Sin - Belgium, The Witcher 3 - Poland;
    Golden: Middle Earth: Shadow of War - US, Nier: Automata - Japan, Dark Souls - Japan, TESO - US, Fallout 4 - US;
    Silver: Conan - Exiles - Norwegian, Path of Exile - New Zealand, Final Fantasy Online XIV - Japan;
    Bronze: Darkest Dungeon - Canada, Skyrim - US, Grim Dawn - US.

    That is precisely the point of the thread, that Americans make many games, but they don't make many good games any more - or good RPGs, at any rate (or strategies).

    I assumed VD was the key driving force behind AoD, judging by this thread, so I wanted to highlight that role. Regardless, few of them seem American. Mikitka is apparently Ukrainian, Velzi is Argentine, etc.

    Let me alleviate your pain. It is there because many non-RPGs were on the Codex list, but it is not up to me to remove them selectively based on my own judgement. I have never played the game nor heard of it until looking at the list with a bit more attention. The "?" is there because I didn't know the particular region of the US from which LISA developers come, and there is a region specified in parentheses for the rest. Thus, it simply means "unspecified region in the US". After all, it is immaterial to the subject of the thread, which is about top RPGs not being American. Upon further investigation, it seems the developer is from Colorado, which is quite unique for the top.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  16. Vlajdermen Self-Ejected

    Self-Ejected
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2017
    Messages:
    769
    Location:
    Africa with electricity
    Hold the fuck up. Underrail is Serbian?

    Shit, I guess I gotta play it now
     
    Vlajdermen rolled 6-sided di(c)e: 4 Total: 49
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Doggy Doggy x 1
    ^ Top  
  17. Dorateen Arcane

    Dorateen
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    3,780
    Location:
    The Crystal Mist Mountains
    Golden Era Games is based in Australia, but the developer is American Neanderthal.
     
    • Yes Yes x 1
    • Prestigious Prestigious x 1
    ^ Top  
  18. fantadomat Arcane Edgy Wumao

    fantadomat
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    30,908
    Location:
    Bulgaria
    Most good ones are from Europa....mainly the eastern part :).
     
    • incline incline x 1
    • Yes Yes x 1
    ^ Top  
  19. Zed Duke of Banville Zo Kath Ra Patron

    Zed Duke of Banville
    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    7,310
    First of all, Japanese RPGs had virtually no presence on non-Japanese computers in the 1990s. Second, only a few Japanese RPGs for the Famicom/NES had been released outside of Japan. The release of the SNES in 1991 (and the Sega Genesis in 1989) did herald a large increase in the number of Japanese RPGs available outside Japan, but these were still greatly outweighed in the overall videogame market by American CRPGs (SSI, Origin, Westwood, Looking Glass Studios, New World Computing, Interplay, Bethesda Softworks, Sir-Tech, etc.). It was only in the latter part of the decade that Japanese RPGs arguably overtook American CRPGs, due to the confluence of an even greater presence of Japanese RPGs on consoles in the era of the Sony Playstation (e.g. Final Fantasy VII in 1997 and many others thereafter) and the decline of American CRPGs (Bioware with Baldur's Gate in 1998).
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  20. Black Arcane

    Black
    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,870,838
    Considering that jrpgs started off and still are poor-man's "wrpgs" you answer that yourself.
     
    ^ Top  
  21. DoomIhlVaria Cipher Patron

    DoomIhlVaria
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Messages:
    370
    Location:
    Hell's Waiting Room
    Make the Codex Great Again! Insert Title Here
    Yeah, I've always wanted to work on games but the realities of such a job are pretty horrifying. The work environment tends to be a lot worse, the pay half as much at best, and you're liable to be laid off after every project. You really have to want to make games to the exclusion of everything else to put up with that shit. Sadly, there's an endless stream of kids who don't know any better for the industry to chew up and spit out. As a result, conditions never improve and the games are total turds. So I'll stick to my boring business code, keep my family fed, and enjoy some imported Bohemian Peasant Simulator.
     
    • nice nice x 1
    ^ Top  
  22. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Average Manatee
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    11,208
    This + RPG companies are probably even worse. If a dev at EA makes half your salary, does an Obsidian dev make 1/3? 1/4? Along with the whole not getting a paycheck whenever the company isn't doing well. It's not a good environment for experienced professionals. It's only bearable for young people without a family to provide for. Naturally they probably aren't that great at creating the next top RPG and instead just poorly imitate trends. Wouldn't be surprised if that's why Bioware has had such quality issues lately.

    That said, any top RPG list is generally going to be talking about RPGs that have a certain amount of uniqueness to them, which means foreign games can have a certain advantage. The Witcher would not be nearly as great if it didn't feel so Polish.
     
    ^ Top  
  23. Ocelot Learned

    Ocelot
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2018
    Messages:
    363
    I think it's part of a bigger problem. US companies don't like taking risks and American AAA games may be technically good but they aren't very innovative, original or bold. Underrail, for example, may not be as expensive, refined or cutting edge compared to, say, Dragon Age Inquisition but it's superior if you aren't new to the medium and actually want to play something new and decent. Dark Souls has countless imperfections but it's bold as it refuses to dumb down certain areas and bosses for the sake of attracting the more impatient and casual players.

    SJW, the boogeyman of the decade.
     
    ^ Top  
  24. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Messages:
    28,296
    Location:
    KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
    Darth Vader is Greek.
     
    ^ Top  
  25. VentilatorOfDoom RPG Codex Staff

    VentilatorOfDoom
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2009
    Messages:
    8,475
    Location:
    Deutschland
    I think the reason for the decline in US cRPGs is racism. The dev studios are not diverse enough.
     
    • Yes Yes x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
    ^ Top  

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.