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The Ending of PST

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Quetzacoatl, Dec 3, 2011.

  1. Aldebaran Erudite Patron

    Aldebaran
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    I don't know, it has been a while, but I was under the impression that he was in the blood war initially as a mercenary of sorts, then realized just what his afterlife would be like after all the things he had done. Then he encountered Ravel during his service.

    Everything can die. Also, I don't think he died during the end scene. Otherwise he should have been a petitioner like a Lemure or a Mane. Which would have made for one hilarious ending cinematic.

    At least, that is my understanding.
     
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  2. Noddy Augur

    Noddy
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    Dunno about that, i'd have thought it'd need to be alive first. Can a rock die?

    May also be making this up, but i remember the good incarnation being a charming trickster in life not a fighter.

    How would he have ended up in the blood war if he didn't die? Also how he could still be alive after dieing several thousand times and then having his mortality restored? The more i remember of it, the more i think he has to be dead.
     
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  3. Quetzacoatl Liturgist

    Quetzacoatl
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    If TNO died in the Blood War, doesn't that mean he's rotting in the Wall?
     
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  4. CrazyLoon Prophet

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    Dead or alive, he still exists in some shape or form. I think the question is does he continue to exist when the Blood War is over.
     
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  5. Aldebaran Erudite Patron

    Aldebaran
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    In DnD, I wouldn't be surprised. A dead guy can be a rock in some cases. But, yes, everything can die as long as it is on its home plane (I recall that being the rule). Remember that Coaxmetal gives you a blade which can kill anything.

    That might be true, I can't recall.

    Remember that the Blood War simply takes place on another plane. You even get a spell in the game to drag someone to the lower planes. Also note that he never went immediately to the blood war after he merges with TTO: "something" is coming for him, he then lights on fire, gets sucked into the ground after saying his goodbyes, and then wakes up without having been transformed into a petitioner. Very strange for dying, especially after the game goes into quite a bit of detail about what happens to someone once they reach their afterlife. TNO even seems to have his memories intact.

    EDIT: Also, to the topic at hand: I think the Blood War is really only over in the Forgotten Realms setting (and people are still debating over whether this is even ture), and that one really doesn't fit in nicely with the other settings. I have heard that the other settings have been dancing around the issue as much as possible.
     
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  6. Erebus Arcane

    Erebus
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    In the Planescape setting, people who die are sent for their afterlives to the plane most appropriate to them (or to the realm of their god) ; they're called petitioners. Petitioners sent to the Lower Planes often become larvae, wormlike creatures without intelligence ; larvae can later be turned to low-ranking Baatezus or Tanar'ris.

    Petitioners can be killed, in which case they usually merge with their plane.

    People such as mercenaries who're killed in the Blood War don't necessarily remain on the Lower Planes in the afterlife. But the Baatezus very often trick mortals into signing contracts that will bind them even after their deaths.
     
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  7. Redeye Arcane

    Redeye
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    He signed a Blood War Contract.

    To make sure he survived the contractual term, he had Ravel separate him from his Mortality.

    This caused him to forget the contract- or perhaps he thought being immortal would help him escape the curse that follows people who evade the contract, then after dying a few times forgot the contract.

    I guess his term is extended for evasion, but he just has to make it through.
     
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  8. Surf Solar cannot into womynz

    Surf Solar
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    It sounds plausible, but why would the people in the game say, that he commited a crime, so bad that the planes will suffer for a long time to the future - just for signing a contract?
     
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  9. CrazyLoon Prophet

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    :shock:

    I certainly don't recall anything like this. Looks like it's time to dig up Planescape Torment for another run.
     
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  10. Redeye Arcane

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    Contract Evasion? (The heaviest contract type in the multiverse perhaps. And getting away with it for so long!)

    Breaking the Death Rules in a super-big way?

    A combination of all the stuff he did during his incarnations?
    (Including different incarnations meddling with all sorts of factions across the Planes.)

    All of the above?
     
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  11. Quetzacoatl Liturgist

    Quetzacoatl
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    Isn't this from the novelization?
     
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  12. Satan Educated

    Satan
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    it is not stated in the game what he did and everything like that are just speculations and fantasy of fans.

    it is just not stated what he did. i think devs actually did a great job with that, because no matter what the answer they would make, it would be disappointing. sometimes it's just better to make things unknown. it's like the name of the protagonist. he can find out what is the real name of his, but if it actually was stated in the text - it would have lost all of it's flavour.
     
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  13. Ed123 Arcane Patron

    Ed123
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    But we do know his name :smug:

    [​IMG]

    :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute:
     
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  14. Surf Solar cannot into womynz

    Surf Solar
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    Ugh, that novel was horrible. To think I even endured it to the end...


    @ Konjad I agree, it was a clever move not to tell everything ingame, but I was asking for theories, not "teh truth11" ;)
     
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  15. flabbyjack Arcane

    flabbyjack
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    Show Spoiler
    TNO's big crime, although not truly HIS doing, was the separation of his mortal selves.

    In regards to what TNO was doing in the Blood War in the first place -- In the Grey Plains he was described as being the leader of a band of ragged poorly-equipped men. Mercenaries are cited as being used in the Blood War, this leads me to think that TNO was a barbarian mercenary, and also that he was Evil in his original incarnation(Was his ego equal to Transcendent One at the end? TNO was referenced as being a byproduct or somesuch). Because he was not already dead he was a candidate to separate mortality.

    This is somewhat covered in Erebus' post above, but I think that if you die in the planes your soul fades and becomes part of the plane, or captured and made into lemures, or captured and... This kind of thing happens all the time if you are serving your afterlife in the Blood War, probably as a lemure
     
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  16. CrazyLoon Prophet

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    The thing is, the Blood War is supposed to be an everlasting war, or at least lasts for a very long time, to provide a credible punishment for TNO, as a result of whatever significant crimes he has committed. The intended fate for TNO initially, is undoubtedly for him to fight in the Blood War for all eternity. Now that the BW is ended, canonically speaking, and on the pretense that TNO didn't "die" during it, I still don't think he would continue to live on, carrying the burden of possessing all the memories of the wrong doings of his previous incarnations. We don't know exactly what his crimes actually were, but they have to be some seriously atrocious acts, if they have caused such disturbance to the realm. And never forget, he merged with his former selves, so technically they exist inside TNO as a part of him. He contains way too much evil within him. It would be irresponsible for TNO to venture out. I can't imagine him existing beyond the BW to be honest. He either dies, again but permanently this time, during the BW, or somehow he stays in hell when the war is over, to restrain the demons within him and to protect the people of the other planes from suffering more.
     
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  17. Azrael the cat Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    His punishment is simply the fact that he is stuck there. There are demons who are damn near godhood, and several that are more powerful that most gods. And they still keep trying to get out into even the pissy old primal plain, because anything is better than the 9 hells.

    The punishment is being trapped there, not the threat of some behemoth killing him (though upon joining the blood war, he'd instantly be the centre of some very unwanted attention - both to use him, and by those seeking to kill him before he becomes a bigger threat. Being ambushed by Demogorgon and his pals (i.e. army) in Demogorgon's home realm, is likely to cause serious trouble for TNO, even by that point of the game.

    Keep in mind - TNO is godlike - but he can be swatted like a fly by the Lady of Pain, would seriously struggle against a Tarrasque (actually he'd probably get wtfpwned by the Tarrasque), and most (maybe not all, but most) gods would still be capable of killing him without too much challenge. Demogorgon and a handful of others are more powerful than most gods, so long as they are in their 'home territory' so to speak, as opposed to their mere 'avatar' which is what appears when they get summoned.


    Graz'zt, Orcus, Dagon...they're all considerably bigger fish than the TNO insofar as the abyss and hells are concerned. TNO would start out as a mid-level to big player, and might truly become a major player in the underworld if things go well, but he sure as fuck wouldn't be there yet - beings with godlike power aren't all THAT rare down there, and there's plenty of folk with vested agendas on making sure he never becomes a major player.

    Actually, considering that his MOST powerful form (merge with all incarnations, merge with TTO) implies a goodness in him, there's an excellent chance that Graz'zt, Demogorgon, Orcus, Dagon etc would put their differences aside for the moment and crush him ASAP, rather than let a powerful and good-aligned fellow run around unmolested. Expect him to then be kept on a very very short leash, with some form of magical control device to make sure that he isn't going to be his own man any time soon - assuming they don't outright annihilate him.
     
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  18. Shannow Waster of Time

    Shannow
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    His big crime was probably the separation of him from his mortality, breaking the Rules of Death. The fucked up things his various incarnations did didn't help either.
    But I never considered the Blood War "punishment". Punishment would require some judge. I always considered it just his bad luck that the only way out of the Fortress of Regrets is a portal to the Blood War. And he wouldn't "serve" there, either. It'd be another challenge he'd have to get through the same way I played him through all those other challenges. His handicap now being that he can die.

    His interactions with various devils and demons, what alliances he'd enter into, the backstabbing and betrayals that'd ensue, whether he'd manage to escape the lower planes or become some big player in some faction or another, old crimes coming to kick him in the balls, etc would have been solid content for PST 2, IMHO.


    As to the OP: WTF? It's fantasy, I can imagine whatever I want, completely independant from any D&D edition: "TNO entered the planes with the Blood War raging around him. He then showed the demons and devils the miracle of manly love. They combined their forces and invaded the higher planes. After showing the devas and good gods the miracle of manly love and Age of Eternal Peace and lots of buttfucking ensued. The end."
     
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  19. hiver Guest

    hiver
    His "Big crime" is simply unknown.

    I asked MCA about it back on the interplay boards and he confirmed it was never even developed further than that basic assumption, by him or anyone else in the development team.

    btw, just logically, his separation from mortality cannot be it because it was done as a consequence of it.
    It is stated that TNO tried becoming immortal in order to try and redeem for that original crime - simply because one life didnt have enough time.

    His Blood war contract was just something one of the incarnations did, as far as i remember.
     
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  20. Gord Arcane

    Gord
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    This is how I understood it, too. Don't remember exactly much about the Blood War contract, though...

    Whatever bad thing he originally did, caused him to be damned to fight for all eternity or until the end of the war (whatever comes first). The immortality thing came later as an attempt to escape this fate.
    As for him being there in person, I'm happy with the explanation being that he's a very powerful being in the end and manages to "keep" his self/form/body.
     
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  21. Surf Solar cannot into womynz

    Surf Solar
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    I would actually be very happy to see "him" in some future D&D game - ofcourse not as a direct npc, but some very vague notes, even if it is just very simple. Just some acknowledgment, you know?

    I btw always thought the huge betrayal of his companions (the archer guy, Deionarra etc) only "added" to his "crime count" too btw. :D



    Man. This sounds fucking awesome.


    PS:T lore. :love:
     
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  22. Stinger Arcane

    Stinger
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    Eh, The Nameless One's story is over and it had a really satisfying ending personally. I'd rather find out more about Ravel and her 'branches'. I really would've liked to have seen more of her what with all the build up but then she's rather anticlimactically killed off by TTO.
     
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  23. Surf Solar cannot into womynz

    Surf Solar
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    Yeah, even in Icewind Dale and such there was foreshadowing of her. I don't think she truely died in PS:T.
     
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  24. procrastinator Arcane

    procrastinator
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    He is mentioned in BG2.
     
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  25. Surf Solar cannot into womynz

    Surf Solar
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    What the fuck? :o I played through Baldurs Gate II but never encountered that.

    The hell is this, BioWare just decided that (canonly) he is dead?




    :x
     
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