The Ending of PST

[thesoup]

IIRC, Avellone said there's a girl who's a branch of Ravel in NWN2. She's blind or something like that.

From what I've understood, TNO did a crime so big that even if he spent his entire life being holier than Jesus, he would still go to hell, i.e. the blood war. His crime was so great that all of his thousands incarnations' crimes were but a drop in an ocean compared to his first incarnation's crime. It's never mentioned what that crime was, but from what I've read, it's something that is causing the planes to slowly die.

I don't think even Avellone thought of what that crime was, but just put it there. If we all suddenly found out what it was, we would inevitably be disappointed because there's just too much hype around it, just like with TNO's name. I really wouldn't have it any other way.

Avellone said he wanted to make other Planescape games (not sequels, of course) and even had plans for them. Who holds the license nowadays anyway? Is it Atari?

Oh and one more thing. Wikipedia says it's Morte who told TNO to seek out Ravel. How does whoever wrote that know that? It's never explicitly said and for all we know, it might have been long after he became immortal. Pointing him to Ravel would also be the truth so wtf?
Yes, I know Morte says he told a lie which got someone killed and that he has a feeling that it was TNO, but like I've said, what's written in wikipedia doesn't make sense.


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Oh and from what I've understood, TNO got his scars from the blood war so I'd say he was a merc there at some point. I'd really like another Planescape game where TNO gets some mention. Maybe even a quest which hints at his involvement in something at some point.

 

[ghostdog]

From what I've understood, TNO did a crime so big that even if he spent his entire life being holier than Jesus, he would still go to hell, i.e. the blood war. His crime was so great that all of his thousands incarnations' crimes were but a drop in an ocean compared to his first incarnation's crime. It's never mentioned what that crime was, but from what I've read, it's something that is causing the planes to slowly die.

What of the original incarnation? There was an advisor, whose lying advice wrought betrayal. Hints of a contract signed. A crime was committed, one so awful the acts of all future incarnations are as nothing compared to it. The crime itself is unknown, save the implication that the planes are still slowly dying because of it. He sought help of the night hag Ravel Puzzlewell, to grant him immortality, so he could escape his punishment and perhaps atone for his crime. And for love of him, Ravel granted his request, stripping his mortality from him. But a dreadful price was paid, since although the death of the body was no longer permanent, it did injure the mind, and memories were forgotten. Thus were born many incarnations, each starting with only fragments of memory of past existences.

Avellone said he wanted to make other Planescape games (not sequels, of course) and even had plans for them. Who holds the license nowadays anyway? Is it Atari?

Since the 4E scrapped Planescape altogether it's highly unlikely there will ever be another planescape game. But look at the bright side... we'll never get a Bethesda "sequel".

Oh and one more thing. Wikipedia says it's Morte who told TNO to seek out Ravel. How does whoever wrote that know that? It's never explicitly said and for all we know, it might have been long after he became immortal. Pointing him to Ravel would also be the truth so wtf?

I don't think this has ever been written in the game or said by any of the developers. Only the hint that morte my have killed TNO, or even played a part in TNO's original crime. Probably wikipedia editor bullshit.

Oh and from what I've understood, TNO got his scars from the blood war so I'd say he was a merc there at some point.

This isn't explicitly stated anywhere. It could be also from the Lady's blades. One incarnation lead a revolt in what was then the prime ward, opening all the gates in the ward to the lower planes using an artifact known as the Shadow-Sorcelled Key. The Lady of Pain finally crushed the revolt, I'm sure she punished TNO somehow.

 

[Satan]

What the fuck? I played through Baldurs Gate II but never encountered that.

The hell is this, BioWare just decided that (canonly) he is dead?

well, your party might be wiped out at the end of PST. I mean you may revive them, but that's just one of the endings.

anyway i don't consider BG/IWD series to be in the same setting as PST. I mean I know they theoretically are, but the worlds are just too different to work together.

 

[thesoup]

Would it be cool if TNO was the reason the blood war started?

@ghostdog
Where's that quote from? I don't remember it.
Also, I remember a quote in the game saying TNO bears the scars of one who fought in the blood war, so that's why I thought that's where his scars are from. Some uber fights and spells which didn't allow his regeneration to kick in properly. Made sense in my mind.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I was more put off by the fact that you can actually equip this sword

Yeah, even more moronic "The Karach sings true" - my ass. - In the hands of Dakkon it always felt like a huge mystery for me , you can actually equip it in BGII? oO BioWare truely are the worst assholes ever imagineable.

You also buy it in a shop . It's with one of the special vendors that you have to download, the one that deals with PST stuff. I guess the only way they could make it more banal was that if you took a shit and then th toilet overflowed, and you had to use a nearby plunger. After all the shit goes away, you glance upon the tool in your hand. Upon close inspection, you realize it's not a plunger, but a weapon of sorts.

Then again, it's non-canon so you can see it as an easter egg.

 

[Infinitron]

I was more put off by the fact that you can actually equip this sword

Yeah, even more moronic "The Karach sings true" - my ass. - In the hands of Dakkon it always felt like a huge mystery for me , you can actually equip it in BGII? oO BioWare truely are the worst assholes ever imagineable.

You also buy it in a shop . It's with one of the special vendors that you have to download, the one that deals with PST stuff. I guess the only way they could make it more banal was that if you took a shit and then th toilet overflowed, and you had to use a nearby plunger. After all the shit goes away, you glance upon the tool in your hand. Upon close inspection, you realize it's not a plunger, but a weapon of sorts.

Then again, it's non-canon so you can see it as an easter egg.

The "items from other games" shops in BG2 were obviously jokes. Sheesh.

There was an Icewind Dale shop too, in the tavern IIRC. It's weird in retrospect how close Bioware and Black Isle were back then.
Nowadays you get Dead Space armor DLC ("Sir Isaac of Clarke")

 

[Quetzacoatl]

If TNO died in the Blood War, doesn't that mean he's rotting in the Wall?

You're mixing campaign setting, the Wall is a feature unique solely to the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. In the Planescape setting there is no Fugue overseen by Kelemvor (Well not exactly, since all prime materials planes connect through the shadow plane... you'd probably have to die on Toril to really be drawn to the Fugue)

Kaelyns bitching made me assume that you went to the Fugue plane even if you weren't in Toril.

 

[CappenVarra]

4th edition - what 4th edition? there is no such thing TNO is still in the Blood War, and will remain there eternally... Feel free to come up with fanfic saying otherwise

 

[Gord]

This has apparently been discussed before but:

TNO => Spirit eater
Night Hag Ravel => Perhaps one of the hags at Kurganis?

What do you mean, that they are connected? That one is the origin of the other?

Don't think so, we get a pretty complete picture of the origin of the spirit eater curse in MoTB, and it doesn't have to do anything with TNO, afaik.

 

[Quetzacoatl]

This has apparently been discussed before but:

TNO => Spirit eater
Night Hag Ravel => Perhaps one of the hags at Kurganis?

What do you mean, that they are connected? That one is the origin of the other?

Don't think so, we get a pretty complete picture of the origin of the spirit eater curse in MoTB, and it doesn't have to do anything with TNO, afaik.

I believe he's saying that TNO is the spirit eater whos great crime was succumbing to its hunger.

 

[Forest Dweller]

No, because in the NWN2 OC the githzerai you get refers to Dakkon. The events of NWN2 occur AFTER the events of Torment.

 

[Quetzacoatl]

No, because in the NWN2 OC the githzerai you get refers to Dakkon. The events of NWN2 occur AFTER the events of Torment.

Time travel?

 

[Conkrete Knight]

I always thought a possible crime would be the creation of coaxmetal, as he if I remember correctly, is the weapon ment to end everything, waging war on existence itself.

This is of course a guess and certainly nowhere near canon.


I also raged over the Zerth-blade in BG2, yes it is a sort of easter egg, but still, it should not be able to even maintain its form without a mind to keep it in shape.

 

[CrazyLoon]

But isn't the Zerthblade only available when you preordered the game?

 

[Stinger]

No, because in the NWN2 OC the githzerai you get refers to Dakkon. The events of NWN2 occur AFTER the events of Torment.

Time travel?

Akachi lead the crusade years (hundred? I can't remember the actual number) before the NWN2 OC and there have been many spirit eater incarnations before the player character.

It would be a stretch (different settings and whatnot) but it could kinda fit in a fanfic sort of way.

 

[Breaking Axe]

@ Breaking Axe - as I have never completed NWN2 - is there any lore in that game I missed when it comes to TNO, or that wall what was mentionend? I won't play NWN2 (the engine....) but I wouldn't mind some spoilers, please.

I can't recall any direct references to TNO in MotB, although the celestial companion may have mentioned something, at least in the OC there's some references to Dak'kon as Dicksmoker notes. That said the entire plot of MotB felt like a Torment rehash, insofar as it is about an introspective journey of self-discovery across the planes, you just replace one plot device with another (TNO's immortality and history, the spirit eater's nature and origin). You also have the spirit eater being confronted with the past crimes of his previous incarnations, just as you do in Torment.

The problem with mixing FR with Planescape lore is that the petitioner system doesn't mesh well with the other. In FR, the dead go to the realm of their patron god after briefly stopping in the Fugue, so long as they generally adhered to their god's dogma, those that deny the gods go to the wall as the faithless, and those that betrayed their god's tenets serve Kelemvor in the Fugue as clerks or something. As such, you can have situations like a LE fighter who served Torm going to the celestial planes upon death. In Planescape the faith of an individual is almost irrelevant, its alignment that's the key. Lawful evil becomes a petitioner in one of the lawfully aligned lower planes, neutral good goes to the beastlands etc. The petitioners' essence slowly merges with their new plane, and I think some, but not all become native creatures.

 

[attackfighter]

But isn't the Zerthblade only available when you preordered the game?

No, I think one of the ToB patches adds Dierdre regardless of pre-order.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

I go with evil ending of MotB -> original incarnation of TNO. Sure there are inconsistencies, but there aren't any other real clues and the MotB ending is one of the few methods we know of that are drastic enough to eternally piss off all gods in existence. Keep in mind that half the D&D Panthenon are evil gods who would be perfectly happy to offer TNO an escape if all that he did was running around burning down planes for the lulz.

Graz'zt, Orcus, Dagon...they're all considerably bigger fish than the TNO insofar as the abyss and hells are concerned. TNO would start out as a mid-level to big player, and might truly become a major player in the underworld if things go well, but he sure as fuck wouldn't be there yet - beings with godlike power aren't all THAT rare down there, and there's plenty of folk with vested agendas on making sure he never becomes a major player.

Actually, considering that his MOST powerful form (merge with all incarnations, merge with TTO) implies a goodness in him, there's an excellent chance that Graz'zt, Demogorgon, Orcus, Dagon etc would put their differences aside for the moment and crush him ASAP, rather than let a powerful and good-aligned fellow run around unmolested. Expect him to then be kept on a very very short leash, with some form of magical control device to make sure that he isn't going to be his own man any time soon - assuming they don't outright annihilate him.

This works for me.


Also fuck 4th ed. Its not canon, sorry.

 

[Surf Solar]

I go with evil ending of MotB -> original incarnation of TNO. Sure there are inconsistencies, but there aren't any other real clues and the MotB ending is one of the few methods we know of that are drastic enough to eternally piss off all gods in existence.

Could you elaborate on that? I played MotB briefly but couldn't bear the engine/camera, so I wouldn't mind spoilers. I'd be extremely interested to know what happens there.

 

[Quetzacoatl]

I go with evil ending of MotB -> original incarnation of TNO. Sure there are inconsistencies, but there aren't any other real clues and the MotB ending is one of the few methods we know of that are drastic enough to eternally piss off all gods in existence.

Could you elaborate on that? I played MotB briefly but couldn't bear the engine/camera, so I wouldn't mind spoilers. I'd be extremely interested to know what happens there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyJ6iheshZc

 

[Overweight Manatee]

I go with evil ending of MotB -> original incarnation of TNO. Sure there are inconsistencies, but there aren't any other real clues and the MotB ending is one of the few methods we know of that are drastic enough to eternally piss off all gods in existence.

Could you elaborate on that? I played MotB briefly but couldn't bear the engine/camera, so I wouldn't mind spoilers. I'd be extremely interested to know what happens there.

Spoiler

Not to spoil too much of the game, but the ending has you give into the spirit eater curse and control it. Its stated that you are unkillable by Kelemvor and presumably by most other gods, since it is impossible to destroy an "empty" thing. Kelemvor's further words are (paraphrased) "By your very existence you declare war on the planes. The gods will hound your steps forever and you will never know peace". Normally souls of the dead go either to the wall or to the gods in a very wheel-of-life thing, but the spirit eater is able to actually consume the soul outright which is an absolute abomination to everything in the universe (think of the spiritual equivalent of violating the conservation of energy). He expects that all of the gods, the planes, and everything will eventually die leaving you alone.

Ending slides says that many gods combined their might to confront you after your destructive rampage became great enough. Kelemvor mentions that he was not part of that battle, but that many gods were destroyed and that you had vanished, most likely to a place the gods can't reach. Presumably, something like PS:T's Sigil.

By the way, play MotB.

Overall, one of the best endings to a game I know of. Especially as an "evil" ending, which is normally just the tacked-on selfish path to the "real" good ending.

 

[Stinger]

I go with evil ending of MotB -> original incarnation of TNO. Sure there are inconsistencies, but there aren't any other real clues and the MotB ending is one of the few methods we know of that are drastic enough to eternally piss off all gods in existence.

Could you elaborate on that? I played MotB briefly but couldn't bear the engine/camera, so I wouldn't mind spoilers. I'd be extremely interested to know what happens there.

It doesn't mesh properly with the timeline so I'm not sure it works but in the 'Evil' Ending of MotB you

Spoiler

master the power of the Spirit Eater, having eaten Myrkul the Dead God and devoured the faceless man and you just go on a rampage and kill all your companions (who are disgusted with what you did) before leaving the Wall. In the epilogue it's mentioned that all the gods worked together to fight you and Kelemvor (who is narrating the epilogue) says he hasn't heard of you since but there are far fewer gods than there used to be.

Damn beaten

 

[Erebus]

Would it be cool if TNO was the reason the blood war started?

The reason the Blood War started isn't stated in the Planescape setting, but it's suggested that the conflict between Tanar'ris and Baatezus is directly due to their philosophical conflict. They instinctively hate each others.

And, while the Blood War is a terrible thing, it has an extremely positive consequence : it keeps the fiends occupied.


As for the original incarnation, my opinion is that he has committed many terrible crimes, not just a titanic one. Near the end, TNO does refer to a specific crime, that had terrible consequences for the planes, but I think it may simply be his separation from his mortality (and its consequences). I don't think there was a single reason for his damnation.

 

[NewFag]

Is it just me or does the punishment not seem to fit the crime? Fighting eternally in the blood war seems pretty coo', though if TNO can die permanently now, doesn't seem much like a punishment at all. Just a resolution. Then again, the oh-so-terrible crime was never established. Could of ranged from mass genocide to developing DA2.

 

[ghostdog]

Is it just me or does the punishment not seem to fit the crime? Fighting eternally in the blood war seems pretty coo', though if TNO can die permanently now, doesn't seem much like a punishment at all. Just a resolution. Then again, the oh-so-terrible crime was never established. Could of ranged from mass genocide to developing DA2.

I'm not sure about the exact lore but I think sentencing in the blood war is eternal. You get resurrected a member of the lower planes and die again and again.

Where's that quote from? I don't remember it.

That was from a fan-made journal that gathered all facts/hints known about TNO from the game. I just was too lazy to write it myself.