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The Ending of PST

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Quetzacoatl, Dec 3, 2011.

  1. Stinger Arcane

    Stinger
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    It doesn't mesh properly with the timeline so I'm not sure it works but in the 'Evil' Ending of MotB you
    Show Spoiler
    master the power of the Spirit Eater, having eaten Myrkul the Dead God and devoured the faceless man and you just go on a rampage and kill all your companions (who are disgusted with what you did) before leaving the Wall. In the epilogue it's mentioned that all the gods worked together to fight you and Kelemvor (who is narrating the epilogue) says he hasn't heard of you since but there are far fewer gods than there used to be.


    Damn beaten
     
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  2. Erebus Arcane

    Erebus
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    The reason the Blood War started isn't stated in the Planescape setting, but it's suggested that the conflict between Tanar'ris and Baatezus is directly due to their philosophical conflict. They instinctively hate each others.

    And, while the Blood War is a terrible thing, it has an extremely positive consequence : it keeps the fiends occupied.


    As for the original incarnation, my opinion is that he has committed many terrible crimes, not just a titanic one. Near the end, TNO does refer to a specific crime, that had terrible consequences for the planes, but I think it may simply be his separation from his mortality (and its consequences). I don't think there was a single reason for his damnation.
     
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  3. NewFag Educated

    NewFag
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    Is it just me or does the punishment not seem to fit the crime? Fighting eternally in the blood war seems pretty coo', though if TNO can die permanently now, doesn't seem much like a punishment at all. Just a resolution. Then again, the oh-so-terrible crime was never established. Could of ranged from mass genocide to developing DA2.
     
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  4. ghostdog Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

    ghostdog
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    I'm not sure about the exact lore but I think sentencing in the blood war is eternal. You get resurrected a member of the lower planes and die again and again.


    That was from a fan-made journal that gathered all facts/hints known about TNO from the game. I just was too lazy to write it myself.
     
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  5. NewFag Educated

    NewFag
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    Yeah, but TNO has already died a thousand deaths. What's a few thousand more? Death is as common-place to him as waking up in the morning, scratching your balls and taking a piss for you and me. Shit, the man kills himself during the game several times just to prove a point. Same torment, nothing's changed. Sure you can call it punishment, but it's just his immortality in a different setting.
     
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  6. DwarvenFood Arcane Patron

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    I think it's great a game from back in the day can still inspire such discussion as to the meaning and all.. I like Azrael's post, thanks. But I think that when PS:T was made, it did not forsee the ending of the BLood War like in some later version of D&D. I think it is best to keep the two things separate.
     
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  7. ghostdog Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

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    You're forgetting something, TNO actually fucked himself hard when he got separated by his mortality, because his new fate was even worse than the bloodwar sentence. This is eventually the meaning of his quest, to become complete again and to begin his sentence in the blood war.
     
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  8. thesoup Arcane

    thesoup
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    I'm Ridin' with Biden I'm Ridin' with Biden
    Yeah, well, in the game, someone tells you there's a legend that says the war started when the Tanar'ri and Baatezu first met and had an argument which evil is teh true evil. Basically, I just said what you said as well. However, it's just a legend. Maybe it was TNO who introduced them or something. Of course, this is just pure fanfic jibberish from my part, but it makes sense in a way.

    Btw, what happense if you lose to TTO? Is it your standard game over screen? I've read that there was supposed to be an ending where you lose against him (or maybe you're even allowed to chose it in conversation?) and the game ends with you awakening on a mortuary slab... Again.

    These discussions about PS:T make me think someone should hold MCA confined in a basement and force him to write something equally great.
     
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  9. Clockwork Knight Arcane

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    Well, if he became mortal again before entering the war he either died for real during the battle, died of old age or he's chilling and working with some demons / devils, who are probably busy with their own matters now that the war is over. Nothing outrageous. About the other "forever" problem, the "you get resurrected a member of the lower planes and die again and again" thing, does it also apply to "foreigners" like TNO who just happened to walk into the battle?
     
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  10. DwarvenFood Arcane Patron

    DwarvenFood
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    Well if he became mortal before entering the was he is fucking dead lol.

    About the other problem, I don't know.. think the rules of the plane apply, and not the rules of the originating place;
     
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  11. NewFag Educated

    NewFag
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    I certainly agree. It seemed like his existence on the planes and forgetting his memories was worse than the blood war contract. TNO certainly knew what was coming, and wasn't avoiding it at all, just wanted to hurry up and die already. Torment was one of the few games where I remember the ending with clarity. It was a long and rewarding journey, with a few hiccups along the way, but at the end, it felt complete. So would fighting in the blood war be equivalent to modern day FPS multiplayer? Kill people, die. Respawn. Ad nauseum.
     
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  12. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    RPG Wokedex Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Not modern, because I doubt they let TNO take cover behind chest-high walls. :smug:
     
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  13. NewFag Educated

    NewFag
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    But he does have regenerating health, right? :smug:
     
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  14. CrazyLoon Prophet

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  15. Surf Solar cannot into womynz

    Surf Solar
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  16. NewFag Educated

    NewFag
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    :thumbsup:

    Truth be told, in our current times, a Torment sequel resulting in that wouldn't surprise me one bit. :lol:
     
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  17. Aldebaran Erudite Patron

    Aldebaran
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    Hold! What you are doing to us is wrong! Why do you do this thing?

    I especially enjoyed the axe called Storm: I thought that the description was quite creative.
     
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  18. Radisshu Prophet

    Radisshu
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    Yeah, but since his mortality is back, he'd respawn as progressively shittier fiends, I think.
     
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  19. Kalin Arcane Zionist Agent

    Kalin
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    That is a very good theory, certainly the best I have heard so far. Creating Coaxmetal and giving him his purpose would most likely count as an irredeemable crime, and it seems to fit within the framework of the game without being too obvious.

    Overall, this thread contains several interesting ideas. Regarding what happens after the events in the game, it might be warranted to take a closer look at the ending itself. While it is obvious that the Nameless One is sent to the Lower Plains to atone for his crimes, the manner in which he arrives there is curious, to say the least. He wakes up seemingly intact, and as he makes his way to fight the fiends on the horison, he leaves his old journal behind, indicating, perhaps, that he has accepted his fate.

    However, evil petitioners do not tend to wake up in their original forms, nor do they bring their items with them. They typically respawn as larvae, primarily serving as currency, ingredients, fodder and provisions for fiends. Larvae left unattended can, under certain conditions, evolve independently (into, say, nupperibos), whereas larvae handled by the Tanar'ri or Baatezu can be elevated to some of the lowest ranks of their respective racial hierarchies. So why then is the Nameless One different?

    One reason might be the fact that certain worshippers of evil deities are exempt from the unpleasant fate mentioned above. Rather than being reborn as larvae, their new shapes are determined solely by their deities. In fact, it is even mentioned in one of the Planescape accessories that some particular petitioners might be allowed to retain their original forms. With this in mind, it could thus be argued that at least one of the incarnations could have actively worshipped an evil deity, and that his past service would be the reason for the less than squirmy awakening. The fact that the Nameless One walks off into the distance, clearly determined to fight, might seem to indicate that there is no divine intervention at hand, but the deity need not be interested in making itself directly known. Given that no evil deities play any significant roles in the story, it would also be strange to introduce one during the game's final minutes. If a deity did restore the Nameless One to his old form, it would certainly explain how he managed to retain his journal and his general attire, an otherwise seemingly impossible feat.

    An alternate explanation might be that the creators of the game simply excluded the larvae system from their vision of the setting, and that all evil petitioners would awake in a similar manner. It is possible, of course, but it does seem somewhat unlikely. After all, nupperibos are present in the game, and the creators worked hard to depict and explore the laws of the planes in a reasonably accurate manner.

    Another thought, then, and an additional argument against the theory of the divine playing a part in his passing, is that the entire sequence might actually be entirely symbolic, a way for the creators of the game to depict the end of the Nameless One in a grand and powerful manner. Something that a cinematic sequence built entirely around, say, a single, squirming larva might possibly have failed to accomplish.
     
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  20. Quetzacoatl Liturgist

    Quetzacoatl
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    I just remembered something that puzzled me in PST. Why wasn't the priest of Aoskar in the Alley mazed by the lady?
     
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  21. Aldebaran Erudite Patron

    Aldebaran
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    If I recall, the game goes into quite a bit of depth about how the petitioner system works during one of the lectures in the Civic Festhall. So I don't think that this is the case. I am sure that it made it quite clear that a petitioner does not keep its body or memories.

    I kind of like the idea of a deity preserving TNO's form, and it is appropriate given the personality of many of his previous incarnations, but would that same god really put him in the middle of the blood war instead of its personal realm?

    Personally, I believe TNO was simply cast down into the Grey Wastes by whatever forces were after him. These forces could range anywhere from gods to the planes themselves. I am sure it wasn't any demon/devil/evil god, as it had no interest in killing him, simply placing him where he belongs. This explains how he still has his body, his items, and why he wakes up on his back as if he was recovering from a fall.
     
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  22. thesoup Arcane

    thesoup
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    I'm Ridin' with Biden I'm Ridin' with Biden
    The one in that abandoned temple?
    While we're at it, shouldn't Fell also be mazed?
     
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  23. Quetzacoatl Liturgist

    Quetzacoatl
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    Yep that's the one.
     
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  24. alkeides Arcane Patron

    alkeides
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    According to the design document, there was supposed to be an ending where you just made peace with TTO and got him to agree to leave you alone for the rest of eternity. Why wasn't it implemented?
     
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