The greatest sins of modern crpgs

[wahrk]

snip

Does kingdom management actually count as a genre innovation, though? I haven’t played far enough into PFK to get there, but it’s certainly not the first game to have some sort of castle/kingdom minigame. NWN2 comes to mind, for one. Usually it seems to be little more than a gimmick, not an innovation to be replicated in other games.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

It's a terrible gimmick in Shitmaker. In BG2/NWN2, the kingdom/castle sim was just a side-gig, something to do for a few hours. In Shitmaker, they turned it into like half the game, with absolutely no fun/interesting parts. You just do stupid shit over and over with no real choice or input for the most part. People who can't even design good mechanics in their own genre are adding a second genre.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

DOS 1 and 2, Pathfinder Kingmaker, PoE 2 Deadfire, Atom RPG, Tyranny, Underrail, Wasteland 2, are some of the last modern games in which you can save almost everywhere. This an important sign of great respect for your time, and it is becaming rarer and rarer in modern games.

 

[Cryomancer]

Does kingdom management actually count as a genre innovation

It affecting the ending, companions, how your capital looks, and being a way to solve some quests, yes.

It's a terrible gimmick in Shitmaker. In BG2/NWN2, the kingdom/castle sim was just a side-gig, something to do for a few hours. In Shitmaker, they turned it into like half the game, with absolutely no fun/interesting parts. You just do stupid shit over and over with no real choice or input for the most part. People who can't even design good mechanics in their own genre are adding a second genre.

Completely wrong. You don't spend half of the game on it. And the kingdom management is far better linked towards the exploration and combat than on other games. I only mentioned few possibilities on my previous page. You can also build teleportation circles and save days of travel. And see your small barony progressing not only visually is so satisfying...

Keep in mind that BG2 you don't have a "castle", you gain a stronghold depending on your class. Bards gain a theater, sorcerers/mages a planar sphere and so on.

PS > There are people saying that WoTR will have over a THOUSAND different spell effects...

 

[barghwata]

Does kingdom management actually count as a genre innovation

It affecting the ending, companions, how your capital looks, and being a way to solve some quests, yes.

Meh, the expeditions games did that better way before pathfinder, and it's not an innovation of the genre, it's just an implementation of a mechanic from a different genre in an RPG.

 

[birb]

overly complex skill/stat systems (or too simple)

 

[Cryomancer]

Does kingdom management actually count as a genre innovation

It affecting the ending, companions, how your capital looks, and being a way to solve some quests, yes.

Meh, the expeditions games did that better way before pathfinder, and it's not an innovation of the genre, it's just an implementation of a mechanic from a different genre in an RPG.

Kingmaker gives way more options than any other game. Allowing the player to play as pathfinder classes like Alchemist OR to be a sorcerer of a specific bloodline not present on previous games can be seen as a innovation. Regardless of kingmaker being innovative or not, it is a masterpiece.

 

[jungl]

Problem with pillars 2 you making decisions for factions. When story wise your watcher is given no reason to give a shit about said factions. No reason other then personal preference. These games with a voiceless protaganists that can choose their own morals. Be a murderhobo one day and a nice guy another suffer in making anything matter in their game world and keeping you interested in the story developments.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Only a fucking popamole lover wanker can say that games like AoD or Underrail bring nothing new to the table.

 

[rado907]

Worst sin for me is level-scaling. Ruins the sense of progression.

Another sin is lack of endgame encounters. E.g. PoE2. I've spent however many hours perfecting my party. Give me a challenge to test it against in the end!

 

[Cryomancer]

Only a fucking popamole lover wanker can say that games like AoD or Underrail bring nothing new to the table.

I only din't purchased Underrail due cooldown on grenades. Can you please list the innovations? I an really curious and depending on what he brings new, i will probably buy.

 

[barghwata]

I only din't purchased Underrail due cooldown on grenades.

Mmm that sounds like a very unreasonable reason to not play underrail, i mean what did you want? you want combat to be just be constant grenade and flashbang spamming? how would that make it any better?

 

[jackofshadows]

Another sin is lack of endgame encounters. E.g. PoE2. I've spent however many hours perfecting my party. Give me a challenge to test it against in the end!

Well, you can try "Seeker, Slayer, Survivor" DLC - it's all about combat.

I only din't purchased Underrail due cooldown on grenades. Can you please list the innovations? I an really curious and depending on what he brings new, i will probably buy.

There's an optional xp-system: you level up via finding "oddities" - various items across the vast game's world. It was quite an experience to hit lvl cap that way. IIRC original intention was to design the whole game around it and only later "classic" xp-system via killing mobs was implemented.

 

[Cryomancer]

I only din't purchased Underrail due cooldown on grenades.

Mmm that sounds like a very unreasonable reason to not play underrail, i mean what did you want? you want combat to be just be constant grenade and flashbang spamming? how would that make it any better?

Did you played Fallout New Vegas? Grenades has no BS unrealistic cooldowns BUT are expensive, available in short supply from vendors and heavy.

 

[barghwata]

Did you played Fallout New Vegas? Grenades has no BS unrealistic cooldowns BUT are expensive, available in short supply from vendors and heavy.

Not a good example, i love new vegas but it has shitty and extremely easy combat, plus in new vegas your damage with grenades is directly tied to your skill which means it's pretty nerfed in comparison to underrail where greandes are powerful regardless of skill. And there aren't any grenades that stun enemies like flashbangs and shit.

 

[Cryomancer]

Did you played Fallout New Vegas? Grenades has no BS unrealistic cooldowns BUT are expensive, available in short supply from vendors and heavy.

Not a good example, i love new vegas but it has shitty and extremely easy combat, plus in new vegas your damage with grenades is directly tied to your skill which means it's pretty nerfed in comparison to underrail where greandes are powerful regardless of skill. And there aren't any grenades that stun enemies like flashbangs and shit.

Can be easy BUT doesn't change the fact that there are no cooldowns on new vegas and FNV is not a endless spam of grenades.

And that is the WORST sin of modern games. they care so much about balance and so little on making the mechanics reflect the world lore that end up with BS mechanics like cooldowns on grenades. Let me have like a ability to have at max 5 grenades on my "belt" and it is far better than having 666 grenades on your inventory on cooldown.

 

[barghwata]

Can be easy BUT doesn't change the fact that there are no cooldowns on new vegas and FNV is not a endless spam of grenades.

It can be.... i played with builds focused on explosives before, and despite using mods to make ammo and grenades more rare, i still got fucktons of grenades just by looting. It's really not hard to get your hands on tons of explosives in FNV.

And that is the WORST sin of modern games. they care so much about balance and so little on making the mechanics reflect the world lore that end up with BS mechanics like cooldowns on grenades. Let me have like a ability to have at max 5 grenades on my "belt" and it is far better than having 666 grenades on your inventory on cooldown.

Sure you can make grenades really rare or something to offset spamming, but in underrail's case that would just completely ruin grenade focused builds and grenade perks; if those cooldowns can offer more build variety then i am fine having them.

 

[Stavrophore]

Anyone denying that isometric perspective is a seriously limiting factor is just fooling himself.

 

[Cryomancer]

Other advantage of first/third person is that is far more engaging. Don't get me wrong, getting a 20 in a D20 and doing a critical damage is fun BUT you picking a longbow and you aiming into a enemy weakspot is far more engaging.

 

[pidstuff]

Spoiler

Romances or even worse

Spoiler

Player-sexual Romances

 

[croitav]

Greatest sin of modern crpgs?

1.Moving from 2d gfx to 3d gfx
2 Rotatable cameras

 

[CappenVarra]

Look, I realize the OP posts a lot of stupid shit, but for once, he might be onto something.

As someone who has played D:OS, D:OS2, PoE1, Underrail, AoD, Kingmaker, and Wasteland 2, I have to say, these games are just not very good.

for the most part, i agree with you

but, haha oh wow

have you got things mixed up or what

D:OS, D:OS2, PoE1, PoE2, and Wasteland 2 are indeed all shit-tier - if these games never existed, the genre would be no worse off, and might be somewhat better off (spoiler: i kickstarted all three dead-ends, yay me)

Kingmaker - has its weak sides front-loaded: Pathfinder :puke:, RtwP , companions :gay; but it gets half of a pass due to being better than the above

Underrail, AoD - by no means perfect, but if you can't get a month or two of enjoyment from these games (and potentially, years - like i did), perhaps it's better not to play cRPGs any more (since those two are the best it gets in the past decade) and switch to something else? oh, look - you think aRPGs are better? go play those and shut the fuck up

 

[Not.AI]

"They feel like they are designed by a committee."

They are designed by a committee. Most things today are designed by a committee. Games are no exception.

Also the whiteboards are the design documents. There is that tendency.

So whiteboards. If the janitor wipes them ... that's it. An interview comes out soon after: the game is suddenly iterating some more. Going in a new direction. This is why.

I however do really like DOS1 and DOS2. Didn't finish them because don't have time. But like them.

I want my games to be so big that I drop them half way. That means I'm getting good value for the money. It makes me feel warm. Makes me smile.

"DOS 1 and 2, Pathfinder Kingmaker, PoE 2 Deadfire, Atom RPG, Tyranny, Underrail, Wasteland 2, are some of the last modern games in which you can save almost everywhere. This an important sign of great respect for your time, and it is becaming rarer and rarer in modern games."

Exactly. Don't play Far Cry series at all for this reason. Can't save whenever wherever.

 

[luj1]

Does kingdom management actually count as a genre innovation, though?

It counts as genre ruination

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Does kingdom management actually count as a genre innovation, though?

It counts as genre ruination

Dominion rulership has been the end-game of Dungeons & Dragons since the original ruleset in 1974. The mistakes made by many CRPGs are to graft half-baked stronghold-building mechanics into a game that doesn't otherwise make any use of dominion rulership, or to allow the player to do so at a low level rather than as the culmination of a lengthy campaign.