Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

The Guild Wars 2 Thread

Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
The business model
Not a feature.
the mounts
EQ2 did it years before them. And better. Leaping and gliding mounts were awesome, shame they ruined the system by adding flying mounts though.
, the horizontal progression in the form of gear and elite specializations
FFXI had extensive horizontal progression and was done much, much better than GW2. Essentially all content ever released in FFXI mattered.
the pseudo action combat
age of conan had full action combat years before GW2
the way the open world is structured around dynamic events
took it from warhammer online, like every other game with it after it released
 

TedNugent

Arcane
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
6,329
mmos should only be ranked based on furry appeal. nothing else matters
When it comes to furries, at least the Charr are pretty metal, and actually by far the least gay faction in the game.

They'd probably fit in in old world Warhammer.

CharrGunner.jpg


Meh/Unremarkable/WoW clone/Not worth your time tier

aka, the tier for games I can't prove are objectively bad but I am biased towards because if I don't, I can't remain in the prestigious connoisseur of fine tastes club.

Well done mate, lol. Hey at least you're being honest, eh?
No, they just have absolutely nothing remarkable about them whatsoever.
GW2 falls directly into that category. It does nothing new, and nothing well.

The mount system in Path of Fire and particularly the vertical environment traversal is remarkable.

Side note - I have seen a lot about FFXIV, and I was surprised it made it high on your tier list. I booted that game up, found the combat incredibly boring and derivative, and uninstalled. Watched some raiding vids, and it legitimately looks like far more of a WoW clone in that content area compared to GW. But I am still intrigued by consistently high praise and the commentary about horizontal progression, which Blizzard continues to whiff on. Is it worth gritting my teeth through to get to the endgame?

I really have precious little appetite for MMO gameplay in general and I really only play GW2 because I play it with the person I sleep with. I generally find MMOs to be boring, tedious and vacuous. The juice is almost never worth the squeeze.

Btw, where do you rank Return of Reckoning?
 
Last edited:

Anonona

Learned
Joined
Oct 24, 2019
Messages
528
I have seen a lot about FFXIV, and I was surprised it made it high on your tier list

Are you talking about FF XIV or FF XI? Rusty gave XIV a D and only because of the crafting system. FF XI was the one graded A, and as far as I'm aware, XIV is a WoW clone with vertical progression, while XI takes more after Everquest and had horizontal progression

I wouldn't recommend XIV to be honest unless you enjoy WoW gameplay style and want some flashy endgame raiding. The game can barely be called an action-RPG, let alone a RPG. Combat is extremely simplified. No CC, no real pets, no interesting skills, strict rotations with very little deviation beyond delaying skills to optimize fights. All the "complexity" is focused on fight mechanics that you have to memorize and trying to sync your buffs with the rest of the party, which usually happens automatically during your cooldown rotation and because the cooldowns of buffs are homogenized to become active at the same time.

No customization of any significant kind, cannot assign stats, classes have defined skills, and gear selection boils down to picking BiS, which is usually the gear with most Critical Hit. The stats are shit and redundant. For example, DPS have Skill Speed (useless for the most part), Determination (damage), Direct Hit (a kind of critical hit), Critical Hit (self explanatory) and a main damage stat (it can be INT, STR or DEX depending on class, but they function all the same and you cannot equip the wrong gear because of classes restrictions). So yeah, 2 stats for damage, 2 kind of critical hit and 1 unique stat that almost no class wants because you run the risk of drifting your rotation and lose DPS because your rotation is out of sync with the party's buffs. Ah, but if you get a Direct Hit and Critical Hit at the same time, they combine even for more damage! So its all good, I guess.

Classes have become more and more homogenized and simple with time. All tanks have the same tools and work very similarly, same with healers. DPS are becoming more and more simple. For example, Summoner, which was a DoT class with a pet, has become an almost literal one button class with nothing to manage and full of instant spells, with the most complex part of its rotation being a single casted spell.

Each campaign is a long stretch of cutscenes with almost no gameplay at all. In a 50 hour expansion there are usually between 6-7 15 minutes dungeons and 3-4 10 minutes Trials (boss fights), with some solo duties sparked between. So you will probably end with like 3 hours top of significant gameplay and the rest is spend watching cutscenes or going from point A to B in a lifeless, boring but beautiful open world, with no risk because enemies are a fucking joke outside of dungeons (kind of, I'll clarify). Also is kind of depressing in a story with the main massage being to unite with others for the good of the future and the idealization of the adventurer's life style of wandering and discovering the world, the game is designed to by played mostly solo, doesn't encourage reaching out to others or trying to establish social relations of any kind (and in fact kind of the opposite considering the darwinian moderation. Don't believe the bullshit of best MMO community, none wants to speak up their mind in game for fear of being reported and banned) and the game is designed as theme park as possible. No reason to explore, 90% of content that matters is instanced.

Finally, the most interesting and unique system is the crafting, which they fucked up due to two reasons. First, it is practically irrelevant at high levels. After some changes, leveling a crafting class is fast and easy, and the best gear for each class is obtained by raiding. In fact, crafting gear is usually 1-2 tiers behind. At most it has its uses in certain patches for those that want to raid as soon as possible, but this is because of the weekly restrictions for obtaining tomestones, a currency you need to get better gear, which you get mainly through doing dailies. I'll say Culinarian and Alchemist are the only one that are consistently needed, and only if you want to optimize your damage. And second, crafting is so easy that people create macros so you can automatize the process, meaning that the intricate crafting system goes to waste.

There is quite a lot more to talk about, but overall, the game is shit IMO. Wouldn't recommend unless you really are into WoW clones. It did have a speck of potential back when ARR was released, even if it wasn't good, but the constant removal of mechanics and streamlining of classes and content squandered any opportunity it had to be at least decent.
 
Last edited:

Morenatsu.

Liturgist
Joined
May 6, 2016
Messages
2,578
Location
The Centre of the World
mmos should only be ranked based on furry appeal. nothing else matters
When it comes to furries, at least the Charr are pretty metal, and actually by far the least gay faction in the game.

They'd probably fit in in old world Warhammer.

CharrGunner.jpg
after all this time i still don't know what the fuck a wankhammer really is. tabletop is cringe 4 loozrs

and actually, charr is gay, mega gay, I have photo evidence

my interest in gw2 is exclusively for charrfaggotry. when it comes to actually playing a real game I'd rather try gw1 lmaooooooooooooooooooo

tera had chubby little furry boys, that was so great, every game needs it

Wow has furries but only in the declinespansions trololo

eq has lizaaaard

in conclusion instead of playing mmos we should all play monster hunter to yiff little kitty kats and big scary monster dragons!!


Now, to be serious for a moment, GW2 has this combination of looking like I should try it and also looking like unlikable shit. If it weren't for furry desperation why exactly would anyone be playing this?
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
944
FFXIV isn't very different from modern WoW. Neither are MMOs in the classical sense (if you want an actual MMO, go play Ultima Online, Ragnarok Online, or SWG private servers). In both games, you never talk to anybody outside of raids, unless you're shooting the breeze in Limsa or Orgrimmar. Both games have almost no endgame content, which boils down to doing the latest raid on repeat for 6 months. The difference is that FFXIV doesn't try to disguise it's lack of endgame content by timegating the story, world quest chores, or a gear treadmill. Once you hit level cap and you're caught up on the story, you can either do repeatable stuff you find fun (PvP, grinding in Eureka or Bozja for cosmetics, playing the Triple Triad card game, Chocobo racing, decorating your house), or just quit and come back later.

Yes, FFXIV doesn't have customization, but that also makes the jobs easy to balance. All DPS jobs are pretty neck and neck and there isn't a tremendous skill gap. Contrast that with WoW, where half of the specs are so behind others that you can't just play the spec you want, because you won't be allowed into any groups.

Also, the simplicity of FFXIV's jobs appeals to me. I'm not a teenager with unlimited free time to spend hours reading the latest Icyveins guide or watching a 2 hour long Fatboss TV video on how to play my spec for the latest WoW patch anymore. I have limited free time, and I just want to sit down and play a game. I don't play Samurai in FFXIV because I'm good at it. I play it because it's cool. Likewise in GW2 I just use whatever traits feel good and get on with playing the actual game. One of the dealbreakers with modern WoW is that it didn't grow up with its audience. It's designed off of the assumption that you're going to no-life WoW, which is simply not possible for me. I would rather do other things more worthwhile with my time.

The homogenization of the jobs still sucks, though.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
FFXI is very good, extremely intricate game. The only game I'm aware of where people still don't know if facing a certain direction while crafting — depending on the current time of day, what in-game month it is, ingame weather etc — helps improve your crafting odds. They put an insane amount of thought into building a virtual world that truly feels fantastical. All the jobs feel unique, dual clasing jobs is awesome. Really the only thing that scores it lower than EQ for me is the bad controls and square's play online software that you're required to use.


FFXIV.... Not so much.
 

TedNugent

Arcane
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
6,329
All DPS jobs are pretty neck and neck and there isn't a tremendous skill gap. Contrast that with WoW, where half of the specs are so behind others that you can't just play the spec you want, because you won't be allowed into any groups.
This is what makes both WoW and GW2 difficult to play.

Half of it is rolling the FOTM lottery or just dealing with getting shit on.

There are loads of dead talents in GW2, including PvP split talents that have 20 second ICD in PvE with a 300s ICD in PvP, making them virtually unusable in PvP. Allegedly, Anet said they were placeholder values years ago based on what I'm reading in the forums, they just never got around to making any changes to the PvP placeholder.

In GW2 PvP, "conditions" builds are pretty toxic. Just standing anywhere near a capture node usually nets you with about 2-3 different DoT stacks and about 4 reapplying condis from the AoE spam. Even full cleanse builds have trouble keeping up with the Skittles, and the removal of resistance (temporary immunity to conditions) has made them pretty hard to deal with for melee characters.

I'm honestly shocked that you say that FFXIV classes are neck and neck, Blizzard seems completely clueless for months at a time when specs are topping ladders with a 10% margin. Their utter inaction at vengeance Demon Hunter at launch of Shadowlands was particularly noteworthy, especially after they found a bug showing they were getting 5-10% extra damage reduction compared to other tanks due to an unintentional passive double dipping. It's not that they have access to secret information, they're just that lackadaisical that they don't seem to care and are willing to let it ride for 3/4 of an entire patch cycle.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
944
I'm honestly shocked that you say that FFXIV classes are neck and neck, Blizzard seems completely clueless for months at a time when specs are topping ladders with a 10% margin.

FFXIV has the advantage of not really having job customization No talent trees, no legendary item effects, no azerite power or covenant abilities. Far fewer combinations to worry about. That does make it easier to balance.

WoW's class design and balance is generally regarded to have peaked during MoP, back when classes had their own dedicated class designers, which apparently is too expensive for modern Blizzard. The class designers interacted with the community, something Blizzard hasn't done in almost a decade. This blog by an ex-WoW class designer shows the process of how he designed the MoP Warlock. It mainly boils down to Blizzard actually listening to their players. Sadly, FFXIV seems to be slowly heading down that route as well, but I digress.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
All DPS jobs are pretty neck and neck and there isn't a tremendous skill gap. Contrast that with WoW, where half of the specs are so behind others that you can't just play the spec you want, because you won't be allowed into any groups.
This is what makes both WoW and GW2 difficult to play.

Half of it is rolling the FOTM lottery or just dealing with getting shit on.

There are loads of dead talents in GW2, including PvP split talents that have 20 second ICD in PvE with a 300s ICD in PvP, making them virtually unusable in PvP. Allegedly, Anet said they were placeholder values years ago based on what I'm reading in the forums, they just never got around to making any changes to the PvP placeholder.

In GW2 PvP, "conditions" builds are pretty toxic. Just standing anywhere near a capture node usually nets you with about 2-3 different DoT stacks and about 4 reapplying condis from the AoE spam. Even full cleanse builds have trouble keeping up with the Skittles, and the removal of resistance (temporary immunity to conditions) has made them pretty hard to deal with for melee characters.

I'm honestly shocked that you say that FFXIV classes are neck and neck, Blizzard seems completely clueless for months at a time when specs are topping ladders with a 10% margin. Their utter inaction at vengeance Demon Hunter at launch of Shadowlands was particularly noteworthy, especially after they found a bug showing they were getting 5-10% extra damage reduction compared to other tanks due to an unintentional passive double dipping. It's not that they have access to secret information, they're just that lackadaisical that they don't seem to care and are willing to let it ride for 3/4 of an entire patch cycle.

You think that was bad? Try newly introduced Death Knight dominating arena, 50% of all top 20 teams having one and the top 10 being basically just UH DK/Holy Pala in 2v2 bracket. Fun times!

I'm honestly shocked that you say that FFXIV classes are neck and neck, Blizzard seems completely clueless for months at a time when specs are topping ladders with a 10% margin.

FFXIV has the advantage of not really having job customization No talent trees, no legendary item effects, no azerite power or covenant abilities. Far fewer combinations to worry about. That does make it easier to balance.

WoW's class design and balance is generally regarded to have peaked during MoP, back when classes had their own dedicated class designers, which apparently is too expensive for modern Blizzard. The class designers interacted with the community, something Blizzard hasn't done in almost a decade. This blog by an ex-WoW class designer shows the process of how he designed the MoP Warlock. It mainly boils down to Blizzard actually listening to their players. Sadly, FFXIV seems to be slowly heading down that route as well, but I digress.

What? Mop introduced the shitty talent selection and streamlined every class into choosing a specific element/playstyle completely neutering hybrids and dumbing the game down even more. WotLk was the peak of class design, lots of complexity and even space for some interesting hybrid builds. Fuck Pandaland and fuck the talent selection system. Complete and utter garbage.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
WotLk was the peak of class design, lots of complexity and even space for some interesting hybrid builds. Fuck Pandaland and fuck the talent selection system.
RIP armor pen
adding the mastery stat was the moment it was clear they no longer cared in the least about making the game interesting whatsoever.
A stat that makes you better at what you do no matter what your class is. Genius!
 

JamesDixon

GM Extraordinaire
Patron
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Messages
11,178
Location
In the ether
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
Here's a 50% off code for Path of Fire Standard Edition to whoever wants it.

e25053d2-6e2d-4965-b80b-7fbf58d9c28d

1) Go to buy.guildwars2.com.

2) Select Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire & Heart of Thorns for $29.99.

3) Then click the "ADD TO CART" button.

4) Enter your code in the Promo Code box and hit "APPLY" and you will see the 50% off discount.
 

El Presidente

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2018
Messages
1,546
Location
Oval Office
Can't believe what I'm gonna say cause judging by their own screenshots I thought New Kaineng was pure decline, and those were my favorite maps in GW1, but... it's actually awesome! :D Amazing city.

They also very shamelessly ripped off Blade Runner in one of the musics that play there



It amazes me how inept Anet is in showcasing even the greatest strengths of their game. I wasn't going to buy EoD cause I thought new Cantha looked pretty shit by their own screenshots and videos.
 

El Presidente

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2018
Messages
1,546
Location
Oval Office
Yeah there's no way this game isn't the best among the four bigs now (WoW, FFXIV, GW2 and ESO). It's actually really fun to play. Easily the most fun open world to explore, PVP is fun, instances are fun.

It needs more expansions, more customization, more guild halls, etc. Maybe a sixth race.
 

Werdnicus

Learned
Joined
Feb 18, 2021
Messages
180
I find it horribly jewish that I have to pay money to unlock extra non expansion content

Some episodes of Living World 1 and 2 are free, I completed those but moving on to heart of thorns I have absolutely no idea what the fuck is going on, how we got to the silverwastes and then the jungle, who the jungle dragon is, what the egg is
Just let me play the game I paid for
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
944
Yes, the deceptive nature of GW2's marketing is scummy. "Here is the $50 all-in-one box that contains all expansions!" and then you buy in and realize that no, you only got half of the content, and you still have to drop at least another $52 to get all of the living world episodes, and $15 to buy gems to turn into gold to get the Griffon and Skyscale mounts. And that's not even considering bags and bank space and build slots. And then you want to look good, but all of the good looking armor is on the cash shop ($5 each), and you can only get mount skins from the cash shop for $20 each. Getting a good gameplay experience out of GW2 will likely run you well over $100 USD.
 

Cromwell

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
5,443
but all of the good looking armor is on the cash shop ($5 each), and you can only get mount skins from the cash shop for $20 each. Getting a good gameplay experience out of GW2 will likely run you well over $100 USD.

youre right, and dont get me started on all the sims dlc sister.
 

Drakortha

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
1,657
Location
Terra Australis
I never had a real problem with it. If I somehow missed a living world and had to use gems to unlock it, I just exchange gold for gems. It's just another gold/time sink if anything. Now, if the only way to unlock them was to get out the credit card, then yeah. That'd be a scam, but it isn't the case.

That said however, I can see how it would be daunting for a new player who has none of it unlocked from the outset, and probably not a lot of gold to spare, either. They need to strongly consider making a change before the steam release. For veteran players like myself, it's just another gold sink. And they are likely making very little $$$ on it from us.

There's been a lot of talk about this on all the social media platforms as well as the forums. Arenanet do listen to and respond to feedback, that's what I've observed over the years. I think it's likely they'll do some unlock package thing for new Steam accounts, either for free or bundled with Expansions.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
944
How Anet presents the game is highly deceptive and scummy for sure. Probably the worst part is how they trick people into thinking that if they buy the $50 collection, you get everything, but no you only get half. You still have to drop another $50 to get the rest of the content ($100 total), and that's not even counting the gold required to unlock the Griffon and Skyscale features, let alone getting a quality of life experience due to how Anet has designed the game to be aggravating to play unless you pay for convenience features like extra bag space and build slots. Still a fun game though but the scumminess makes it hard to broach to people.

L8r0BlJ.png
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom