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The Indiepocalypse happened - we are now in the Indie Post-Apocalypse

Naveen

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I could probably write the same article about indie writers just by replacing videos games with books, and Amazon instead of Steam. Of course, nobody considers his child part of the clutter, but still, the problem is undeniable. My hypothesis is that, after a certain amount of clutter, when there's so much new stuff every day that people can't even keep track of what is being released even in their own small genre, the relationship between quality and sales goes a bit haywire —if not purely random.

And I believe Steam is still somewhat good at rewarding competence and quality. In other genres of entertainment, the correlation is not 0 but negative. This, for example, is the current #1 Amazon best-seller in the sci-fantasy, under-one-hour (short story or novelette) reading category. Why? Eh...
mystery.png
 
Self-Ejected

IncendiaryDevice

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Even AAA games have problems with popularity on steam now:

F1 2018: all time peak 9,500 players
https://steamcharts.com/app/737800

PRO EVOLUTION SOCCER 2018: 7,000
https://steamcharts.com/app/592580

Strange Brigade flopped even harder: just 1,900 what a joke!
https://steamcharts.com/app/312670


for comparison Pillars of Eternity 2 that is considered to be not so successful has all time peak players 20,000

I remember back in the early 2000s indie devs used to make good money selling casual games to women through their own websites at $20-25 US each. Then the big game portals appeared and the indie devs had to sell though them or not at all. The portals put on never ending deep discount sales to get people addicted to buying, but this also created a hold-out mindset which drove the price for a game down to a dollar and less. Portals always create a race to the bottom. When they show up its time to get out.

I take it you didn't read my post in this thread...

You honestly think selling via one's own website for $20 is going to net you more money that having your game on a 'portal'? Bwhaha. How has that even changed? Why does the existence of portals suddenly mean people wont visit your site? Do you remember in the old days they had these 'portals' called … wait for it... shops, where people bought games. I know, stunning isn't it. And eBay has existed for 20 years now, wow. How did they cope!

& I reference my previous post in this reply because it flatly contradicts your point about "race to the bottom", with actual facts rather than bullshit. The "hold-out" mentality has always existed in every retail situation ever you dumbass, it's what... wait for it... poor people do as a fucking lifestyle. What, you want Morrowind to still cost $60 to buy just so that, heaven forbid, people don't start expecting time-based reduction in costs when they browse for games? Fucking idiot.
 
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Davaris

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Even AAA games have problems with popularity on steam now:

F1 2018: all time peak 9,500 players
https://steamcharts.com/app/737800

PRO EVOLUTION SOCCER 2018: 7,000
https://steamcharts.com/app/592580

Strange Brigade flopped even harder: just 1,900 what a joke!
https://steamcharts.com/app/312670


for comparison Pillars of Eternity 2 that is considered to be not so successful has all time peak players 20,000

I remember back in the early 2000s indie devs used to make good money selling casual games to women through their own websites at $20-25 US each. Then the big game portals appeared and the indie devs had to sell though them or not at all. The portals put on never ending deep discount sales to get people addicted to buying, but this also created a hold-out mindset which drove the price for a game down to a dollar and less. Portals always create a race to the bottom. When they show up its time to get out.

I take it you didn't read my post in this thread...

You honestly think selling via one's own website for $20 is going to net you more money that having your game on a 'portal'? Bwhaha. How has that even changed? Why does the existence of portals suddenly mean people wont visit your site? Do you remember in the old days they had these 'portals' called … wait for it... shops, where people bought games. I know, stunning isn't it. And eBay has existed for 20 years now, wow. How did they cope!

& I reference my post in this thread because it flatly contradicts your point about "race to the bottom", with actual facts rather than bullshit. The "hold-out" mentality has always existed in every retail situation ever you dumbass, it's what... wait for it... poor people do as a fucking lifestyle. What, you want Morrowind to still cost $60 to buy just so that, heaven forbid, people don't start expecting time-based reduction in costs when they browse for games? Fucking idiot.


You talk like someone who is mentally ill. What are you? An angry 13 year old? lol
 
Self-Ejected

IncendiaryDevice

Self-Ejected
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Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
7,407
Even AAA games have problems with popularity on steam now:

F1 2018: all time peak 9,500 players
https://steamcharts.com/app/737800

PRO EVOLUTION SOCCER 2018: 7,000
https://steamcharts.com/app/592580

Strange Brigade flopped even harder: just 1,900 what a joke!
https://steamcharts.com/app/312670


for comparison Pillars of Eternity 2 that is considered to be not so successful has all time peak players 20,000

I remember back in the early 2000s indie devs used to make good money selling casual games to women through their own websites at $20-25 US each. Then the big game portals appeared and the indie devs had to sell though them or not at all. The portals put on never ending deep discount sales to get people addicted to buying, but this also created a hold-out mindset which drove the price for a game down to a dollar and less. Portals always create a race to the bottom. When they show up its time to get out.

I take it you didn't read my post in this thread...

You honestly think selling via one's own website for $20 is going to net you more money that having your game on a 'portal'? Bwhaha. How has that even changed? Why does the existence of portals suddenly mean people wont visit your site? Do you remember in the old days they had these 'portals' called … wait for it... shops, where people bought games. I know, stunning isn't it. And eBay has existed for 20 years now, wow. How did they cope!

& I reference my post in this thread because it flatly contradicts your point about "race to the bottom", with actual facts rather than bullshit. The "hold-out" mentality has always existed in every retail situation ever you dumbass, it's what... wait for it... poor people do as a fucking lifestyle. What, you want Morrowind to still cost $60 to buy just so that, heaven forbid, people don't start expecting time-based reduction in costs when they browse for games? Fucking idiot.


You talk like someone who is mentally ill. What are you? An angry 13 year old? lol

Nah, didn't think you had anything to back up your... words...
 

adrix89

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Why are there so many of my country here?
Theres no such thing as indiepocalypse, its more like shovelwarepocalypse. There will be always sales for quality indies. Most of the indie stuff on steam, no one will even bother it to torrent...Can someone mention something really good with very poor sales on steam ?
COADE, AKA "Kerbal With Guns".
That game is doing fine.

The problem is game developers seem to be terminally blind.
There are plenty of games developers could do that would sell if they kept their eyes peeled and look for a hole in a niche.

Space Station 13 still does not have a good clone and all you have to do is just copy paste into a none garbage engine. Sure multiplayer is hard but I have seen games that didn't sell that tackled much bigger challenges.
Can you imagine how many streamers and youtubers would eat it all up?

I am still amazed that in the 4X genre there hasn't been a game with good tactical space combat like Homeworld, Sword of the Stars, Flotilla.
Seems every fucking developers wants to make Master of Orion 2 again and are asking why things are getting crowded, gee I wonder why.

A single player RTS campaign. I understand multiplayer RTS is kinda a crapshoot but is a procedurally generated campaign really that hard? There are plenty of tricks you can pull of even if your AI is braindead.

Silent Storm Sentinels. All I ever wanted is to blow shit up in a endless amount of scenarios.

A good old combat game. You don't need much, just an arena and a in depth way to beat each other.
 
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some funny shit

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I am still amazed that in the 4X genre there hasn't been a game with good tactical space combat like Homeworld, Sword of the Stars, Flotilla.

I dont think such game would make any profits. Unless some cheap 2d pixel art.
With voxels or low poly graphics it could be cheaper then pixel art.

Probably such game was released, flopped and author commited suicide. 7,672 games were released on Steam just in 2017. More this year.
 

adrix89

Cipher
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Why are there so many of my country here?
I am still amazed that in the 4X genre there hasn't been a game with good tactical space combat like Homeworld, Sword of the Stars, Flotilla.

I dont think such game would make any profits. Unless some cheap 2d pixel art.
With voxels or low poly graphics it could be cheaper then pixel art.

Probably such game was released, flopped and author commited suicide. 7,672 games were released on Steam just in 2017. More this year.
It isn't since I searched all Steam for it.
 

DraQ

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Theres no such thing as indiepocalypse, its more like shovelwarepocalypse. There will be always sales for quality indies. Most of the indie stuff on steam, no one will even bother it to torrent...Can someone mention something really good with very poor sales on steam ?
COADE, AKA "Kerbal With Guns".
That game is doing fine.
Seriously? I would expect, if not the holy grail of hard SF combatfags, then at least an earnest attempt at it, that is also heavily endorsed on Atomic Rockets to do quite a bit better.
 

fantadomat

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Edgy Vatnik Wumao
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LoL that guy is retarded.

Decides to jump on a 5 year old trend where there are like 100 unimaginary games released per year.

Then just go for the "muh pixel art" while adding nothing original to the game.

As marketing he post a few shit on reddit and gets banned,then post shit on twatter most likely.

After the game doesn't sell he goes on to blame the market.

Yeah it is no big revelation that just another shovelware didn't sell. Original and unique games to catch the eye a lot more than those conveyor belt games. They are just trying to push all the right world without getting it that those words are already pushing people away from the game. You just have to take a single look at the screenshots and the description to be turned away.

All those games did have something unique about them when they come out. Good Indi devs do make something unique and new or something forgotten,they don't go for the most trending and overused shit. I will shed no tear for those people. Also indi is more of a hobby than a job. Also the "review indicator" just show how out of touch those people are. The percentage of reviews to owners heavily depends on the game and its fans. Some games have a lot more pull with its audience and could generate a lot bigger percentage of reviews.
I really rolled my eyes when i read that drivel about the marketing. Marketing is not just posting a few posts on reddit and begging a few streamers to play your game.You should target your desired audience and go after those niche places where they gather. Go and try go for national magazines and sites for coverage,don't expect from the big internet game journos. Very few people take them serious.

Anyway the whole article was filled with whining about other people being responsible for one's own stupidity:roll:.
 

funkadelik

Arcane
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
1,496
With Steams launch visiblity, I can't believe it didn't sell at least a few dozen copies in the first week
The dev later told me it sold 24 copies, which is perfectly in line with 0 reviews. It has 1 review now by the way because I reviewed it myself.

I doubt there are many people out there telling themselves "what I'm looking for right now is another shitty Indie pixely Roguelike game made by some no-name".
Except... there are? Dead Cells sold over 700,000 copies, but if it had bombed instead you would say it was justified for the aforementioned reasons.

As far as "no-name", that's a chicken and egg problem. If no one can become a someone until already being a someone, welp.

Frostpunk
Yea in another thread about this post, someone suggested indies should just stop making "ugly games" and do something like Frostpunk. As soon as I get 69 other people to join my studio, I'll give that a try. 70 person studios is indie now I guess.
costa-farms-house-plants-6zz-64_1000.jpg
 
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Mortmal

Arcane
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Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,182
after a certain amount of clutter, when there's so much new stuff every day that people can't even keep track of what is being released even in their own small genre, the relationship between quality and sales goes a bit haywire —if not purely random.
Alas no , i am no lifer like many here and trust me i browse the steam inventory , i can keep track of it all. I even looked at all the greenlight titles when it was still a thing. Believe it or not i played most good rpgs ever released, bar a few asian ones not translated. So i spend insane amount of time gaming and looking for new games . There's so little of value there, everything that is good, the codex is already aware of and mentioned in this forum , as of today there's nothing else to discover in steam library.


Space Station 13 still does not have a good clone and all you have to do is just copy paste into a none garbage engine. Sure multiplayer is hard but I have seen games that didn't sell that tackled much bigger challenges.
Can you imagine how many streamers and youtubers would eat it all up?
There was some SS13 in 3D in the work,i've read about it years ago but never read anything more about it. I guess its vaporware or abandonned by now.There's plenty of room for a good indie like that but guess its too much work they prefer to do some 2D pixel art platformer or "retro" jrpg then lament no one is buying it.To be fair SS13 is the work of a genius.
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Oh my god you are using Steam reviews a metric for the roguelike community.
No, he's saying that the guy who made Golden Krone Hotel is using them as a metric, and by his own metric, the game bombed. (I think?)

That said:
I would go even further and tell you my personal rule of thumb: if a $10 indie game doesn’t have over 300 reviews, it was probably a financial failure. That is it hasn’t provided the equivalent of what someone could make in industry in a single year.
This is an incredible statement on many levels. Let me lay them out:

(1) A person who works from home on his passion projects, with complete creative control and complete public credit for the project, should not expect to earn as much as he would when working for a corporation. Otherwise, why would anyone ever work for a corporation...? To the extent he is viewing "be my own boss" as a professional alternative to "work for a boss who pays me," unless he's being utterly irrational, he is putting a value on control over his work schedule and work environment, fame, creative freedom, etc. that makes up for the shortfall in pay.

That is not necessarily true:
When you have a "core production skill" (directly related to the creating the content the corporation is selling) in a corporation, your work also has to cover all the bureaucratic costs of the structure (management, and all the logistical branches), on top of the income of the shareholders.
In exchange, you benefit from the assets of the corporation, that can range from machines to reputation and contacts, which leverage your productivity.
The thing is, if you are on your own, you need to be good (or be working with someone who is) at every task that is usually handled by other:
marketing, production, project management, on top of the product development itself.
A lot of developers make more as freelances than they made as corporation developers, as long as they have enough contacts to get them going. Game development adds a lot of required skills compared to freelance software development, though, and B2C(Business to Consumer) is riskier than B2B(Business to Business) by nature (cf point 4).

2) A tiny, tiny percentage of people who make failed Steam games are doing it as a full-time profession. So the choice isn't between making Game X and working for Ubisoft, it's between making Game X and going for a hike, posting in another Codex thread, reading a fantasy novel, getting more sleep, etc.

(3) Most of the people who make failed games on Steam couldn't get jobs in the industry. Yeah, yeah, standards are low everywhere. But basically this argument is like, "If instead of writing Warhammer fan fiction on Usenet, you got a job writing shared world novels for Games Workshop, you'd have made so much money!!!!"

That is true, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of people who do it full time, and/or had prior experience as game devs with shipped products bite the dust.
I have been developing Zodiac Legion for more than five years. During this time, I have attended a lot of events in the French indie scene, and I met very talented software engineers, and game developers who had a lot of experience whose launches ended in failure, despite their game being very popular at conventions and video game events.
The thing is, it is not the end of the world if your game tanks. It is a hard pill to swallow, but most of the teams I encountered ended up finding contract work for other studios (or outside of the gaming industry).
That said, Dead Cells, Xenonauts 2 and Slay the Spire show that there are still niches where gamers are starved of good games.

(4) If making more money is your goal, making games is a bad idea. So, "If you're only getting 300 reviews, rather than working from home making your dream game project, you should sit in a cubicle writing item descriptions for a F2P micro-transactions idle game" should really be rewritten as, "If you're only getting 300 reviews, maybe you should just get a job in data entry or accounting or pipe fitting."

Going indie is risky, but making games is not that different from any other enterprise project.
I have also met a lot of entrepreneurs who tanked their launch (as I also attend entrepreneurial networking events). The core problem is that B2C (Business to Consumer) requires a ton of people interested in what you are doing to make it work, when B2B only requires some contacts and contracts to get you afloat, as long as you are really solving someone's problem (cf Twitch creator on Why I love B2B over B2C).
Games are not that different. Gamers are actually easier to reach than your average consumer whose problem you think you are solving. Labor is also typically cheaper for games than for enterprise software development: Games may be a bit riskier than other businesses, but given that game development positions are paid much less than similar non game development positions, going indie is not that bad if you really cannot help making games full time, as long as you have some ways to survive a setback.
At least, when making software, your production costs are much easier to keep in check than when making hardware (as in, you usually don't run the risk of having marginal production costs ending being higher than your revenue per unit), in which failures to assess production cost/shipping costs can make you go bankrupt, even when stars seems to align.
So all in all, indie game development might be hard, but not orders of magnitude harder than any other B2C entrepreneurial adventure. You should only do it if you are indifferent to risk (ie, if you don't need to mortgage your own house if your project tanks), and can afford to lose everything you invest in it, like for every other business (so it is easier in countries with low cost of living, or good unemployment benefits/easily obtainable state grants).

Back to the OT, Keith Burgun's YT followers lay not know his latest game was out, given that his latest video is one year old, and doesn't use the same name for what I assume is the same game (the videos refer to push the lane, not escape the Omnochronom). The fact that he talks about a lot of unrelated political issues on his twitter doesn't help either:
He really doesn't make it that easy for his fan to know that he has just published a game. It looks as if he is really trying hard not to leverage his own following. There is also very little information about the game itself, even though turn based MOBA roguelike is a confusing description.
Also, given how inept Steam is at finding near misses when searching for games, the title doesn't make it easy to find or remember the game. The fact that it is listed under a different publisher than Auro doesn't help either.
 

some funny shit

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Looking at Steam top selling list is very depressing these days.

You see only:
- multiplayer battle royale games
- old AAA/ indie AAA(DOS2) games with discount
- shovelware open world survival games made in Unity/Unreal
- one popular building/crafting game: RimWorld or Two Point Hospital or Stardew Valley


This is what is selling today.
Nothing creative or original.
 

Destroid

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That game is doing fine.

The problem is game developers seem to be terminally blind.
There are plenty of games developers could do that would sell if they kept their eyes peeled and look for a hole in a niche.

Space Station 13 still does not have a good clone and all you have to do is just copy paste into a none garbage engine. Sure multiplayer is hard but I have seen games that didn't sell that tackled much bigger challenges.
Can you imagine how many streamers and youtubers would eat it all up?

I am still amazed that in the 4X genre there hasn't been a game with good tactical space combat like Homeworld, Sword of the Stars, Flotilla.
Seems every fucking developers wants to make Master of Orion 2 again and are asking why things are getting crowded, gee I wonder why.

Sins of a Solar Empire (2008) tried the 4X with RTS gameplay and was successful enough to get a few expansions, didn't like it myself.

Many have tried and failed to clone SS13, Stationeers is the most promising take on it I've seen.
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
On a sidenote, there are several perks when being self employed:
The money you get is not taxed if you reinvest it in your own company, while wage money is usually taxed before you can reinvest it.
Developing on your brand/IP counts as investment: you should not expect to become rich overnight.
cf Chris Zukowski's blog post: your first indie game failed, here is what yo do next.

In game as in every other enterprise, you need to be ready to bleed money (and work) to make some in the long run.
Actually, indies tend to be obsessed about the short term revenues much more than large publishers.

You probably won't make the money spent on marketing back in your first game (from the "influencers" RoI figures that I had seen during several dev conferences, most don't pay for themselves when you consider the number of resulting direct purchases...). That is why you need to be thinking about building your brand, over time, and not aim at becoming rich with your first game.
 
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Joined
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Messages
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Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
Looking at Steam top selling list is very depressing these days.

You see only:
- multiplayer battle royale games
- old AAA/ indie AAA(DOS2) games with discount
- shovelware open world survival games made in Unity/Unreal
- one popular building/crafting game: RimWorld or Two Point Hospital or Stardew Valley


This is what is selling today.
Nothing creative or original.

Creative and original will never be top seller because by definition it's something most people aren't familiar with (in other words, something they know they'll probably enjoy)

Your best hope nowadays is catching streamers' attention. It's like word of mouth on steroids.
 

Viata

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Wait 5 years and re-release the game with a better graphics and on a new console
Releasing a remastered version of your first game will reintroduce your (now) legions of fans to a revamped game that required significantly less development work than an entirely new game.
Release a sequel or one in the same genre
Indie devs don’t make enough sequels and it is a real lost opportunity. A sequel subtly says that the first one was so solid that it warrants making a second one. Development on the sequel will also be much faster since you will be able to reuse more of the code in the first one.
Add a mailing list signup form inside of your game
Nobody is just going to give you their email address. You have to offer something up in return. This is referred to as a “lead magnet.” Add a second playable character that is only unlockable when they sign up for your mailing list. Give them a bonus level with lots of coins. Give them a pair of special in-game glasses that allows them to see all the secret passages.
Holy shit, this link has some really shit advices, good lord.
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
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Messages
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Wait 5 years and re-release the game with a better graphics and on a new console
Releasing a remastered version of your first game will reintroduce your (now) legions of fans to a revamped game that required significantly less development work than an entirely new game.
Release a sequel or one in the same genre
Indie devs don’t make enough sequels and it is a real lost opportunity. A sequel subtly says that the first one was so solid that it warrants making a second one. Development on the sequel will also be much faster since you will be able to reuse more of the code in the first one.
Add a mailing list signup form inside of your game
Nobody is just going to give you their email address. You have to offer something up in return. This is referred to as a “lead magnet.” Add a second playable character that is only unlockable when they sign up for your mailing list. Give them a bonus level with lots of coins. Give them a pair of special in-game glasses that allows them to see all the secret passages.
Holy shit, this link has some really shit advices, good lord.
Actually, sequels may be bad, but sticking to the same genre is sound.
Timegate studio went from making the Kohan RTS series to making FPS. I don't think there was much overlap between the audience of their games.
Mailing list is bad indeed, but the guy seems to come from a mobile dev background.
Re-release seems to be the Jeff Vogel way of doing things :)
I don't think it is a good idea either. You can reuse a lot of code and even assets without doing a straight re-release.
 

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