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The Indiepocalypse happened - we are now in the Indie Post-Apocalypse

HentaiWriter

Future Fragments
Developer
Joined
Jun 19, 2015
Messages
314
You still don't get it and you never will. If you make a porn game, you're going to fail there as well. Because you have yet to bother with coming up with something people want but can't get anywhere else. You have no passion and no new ideas to bring to the table, you just read some dude on a forum saying porn games are where teh bucks are at and decided to chase the next fad. Just like every single creatively bankrupt developer ever. Indie or otherwise.

Read HentaiWriter posts again. The guy isn't making money because he is "making porn games", he is making money because he knows exactly what his audience is looking for, but can't get anywhere else.

Another big thing from what I could tell in the OP that was a problem was lack of marketing. A lot of people shit on marketing as "shilling" or whatever other negative stuff, but that's not because marketing itself is inherently a bad thing, that's because people have misused marketing over the decades to drop it down to the scummy level that most people now perceive it as.

Marketing, if done correctly, not only gets your game more attention (as honestly, word of mouth is great but it only works once you've already got an audience), but it can also help you actually connect with your audience through PR and let you show them that yes, you actually give a shit about the people helping you make your game come true with their finances, and yes, you actually give a shit about this game you're making, instead of making it a quick cash grab.

A lot of people will market their game like this;
"5 wonderful, unique, completely action-packed levels full of thrills and challenges!"

The problem with this kind of marketing is that it's completely subjective. To me, maybe these levels aren't packed with thrills, and maybe to another person, they're unique, but not action-packed.
IMO, the best way to market is to be completely objective with your marketing; let the game itself prove that it's quality and fun and such, but when it comes to what the game's content is, lay it out on the table exactly as-is, period.

Here's what I have in the current public demo for Future Fragments, for example, and how I market it in the topic post;
  • 4 enemies with 2 sex animations each
  • 1 boss with a lengthy sex animation
  • 3 long cutscene-based sex animations
  • 5 game over CG scenes, with 2 variations each (first time around and second time around)
  • 36 main maps across 6 paths
  • 16 boss puzzle rooms
  • 2,500 lines of dialogue, across 4 hours and 15 minutes of spoken audio, with 16 voice actors/actresses
  • 25 songs (with about 10 of those being variations of the main track due to the dynamic audio)
  • 30 total cutscenes with over 90 variations of the ways they can play out
  • 30 databanks with over 50 variations in reactions
  • 18 powerups and 3 charge shots, 2 utility abilities
Besides the part about a "lengthy sex animation", everything else there is 100% objective. There's no possible way for me to twist words or bait you into something that isn't actually what it is, and if marketing were entirely done this way (or at least a lot more objective and a lot less subjective; you don't HAVE to go full objective, as the main pitch I have for the game in that same topic does have a little subjectivity), I think people would have a lot more positive of a view about it.

Be honest too, be transparent, update often on all your blogs and let people know exactly what's going into what, why you're doing this or that change to gameplay, things like that. Blizzard's Overwatch has done pretty well with explaining the method behind their changes and frequent updates and such, for one example to look for in AAA games.

Feedback from players is invaluable too, because it lets you see the game in another way that you probably don't see it, because you've got "dev vision" and don't realize that that puzzle you did is mindnumbingly easy, or so complex and convoluted that you'd basically have to be, well, yourself to figure it out. Conversely though, don't let other people drive your game's direction; get feedback, take it, figure out if it improves your game to add it in or change things, but only do so if you're still "staying on your path/vision". Balancing that is a really hard thing to do, and a lot of games wreck themselves due to a low amount of implementing user feedback, or too much user feedback implemented.
 

adrix89

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Why are there so many of my country here?

HentaiWriter

Future Fragments
Developer
Joined
Jun 19, 2015
Messages
314
HentaiWriter since this is one of the rare occasions you post outside your own thread, do you have any opinions about Last Sovereign?

I did just want to clarify I don't post much outside of my own thread not for a lack of wanting to talk, but more because most of the time I post outside of topics in non-NSFW-oriented forums, I tend to derail topics pretty fast unintentionally because people often ask what the hell's up with my name and then it turns into a discussion about adult games... which is basically what happened here, sort of. At least this time though it happened because someone actually pinged me and wanted to specifically know stuff about adult games, just like your post, too :P

The other reason is just because I'm working nonstop on games, which is why I've stopped posting on most of the forums I post on outside of game updates on each forum.

About the Last Sovereign though, that ties into the above; I honestly haven't played it, but I do hear pretty frequently that it's considered to have great writing and such, so all I can go off of is that. I don't have anymore of an opinion or info on it besides that, sorry :(
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
Patron
Developer
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
16,947
Location
Pannonia
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath

Dayyālu

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
4,466
Location
Shaper Crypt


:abyssgazer:

Oh well at least it's...uhn.... peculiar


I've already got a GDD (game design document) for one. :cool:

Aww, no mechas :(. I'll still keep an eye for it tho. Again, good luck!


mu8l9AA.jpg

Seriously, what the fuck. Is that a parody of Tumblr-type protagonists? That design is atrocious!

Oh you got me. I guess all those people that bought my game and told me it was one of the best, most original games in the genre were doing it to be nice or something. I'll just pack it up then.

Again, Indie games that are still niche games are doing well. As much as it hurts, HentaiWriter is showing how a pseudo-indie marketing can work: being tireless and kept trying to get some light on your game in almost every post, even when you are replying to other subjects, even in a honestly obscure pretend-Nazi forum like the Codex. Endless promotion on the Internet must be a thankless job, but it seemingly brings results.

But for that you need a team, I guess. Good luck to ye also if you choose to go to the porn side, tho!
 
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Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
^People reading this might get the impression Escape the Omnochronom is Jeremiah's game. To be clear, it's not - his game is the roguelike Golden Krone Hotel which Hobo Elf claims was well-received.
 

HentaiWriter

Future Fragments
Developer
Joined
Jun 19, 2015
Messages
314
Again, Indie games that are still niche games are doing well. As much as it hurts, HentaiWriter is showing how a pseudo-indie marketing can work: being tireless and kept trying to get some light on your game in almost every post, even when you are replying to other subjects, even in a honestly obscure pretend-Nazi forum like the Codex. Endless promotion on the Internet must be a thankless job, but it seemingly brings results.

Honestly, I just want people to play our game because anytime our work is able to change someone's perception on the concept of "adult games are universally only for fapping and won't have any good gameplay/story/audio/art", that's a good day for me.
I would rather have a scenario where 1 million people get to play our game but only 100,000 pay for it, than a scenario where 200,000 people pay for it, but that's the amount of people that get to play it. It's why I don't DMCA pirate links and I don't shame anyone pirating the game, people post links to the latest versions in forums I post on and I discuss stuff with people pirating it like I would anyone else.

The point I'm trying to get at with all this in response to what you wrote is that the reason my constant talking about my game works in most places is because the way I talk about it shows that 1) I have a great deal of pride and passion in what we're making, but 2) I just want people to be able to try it out and enjoy it; while we need money to be able to pay our bills, most of the money past that goes right back into the game for voicework, SFX, music, translation, etc. and so money isn't our core focus, making a good game is. Someone being passionate about what they're doing and the field they're in is more powerful than almost anything else when it comes to marketing, so long as they're genuinely passionate.

If you just go forum to forum and slap up some images and text and don't really care too much about your game or aren't super passionate about it, it's going to come off hard as a cash grab and will have the opposite effect, which will just piss off everyone.

(As a last note too, I'm only using my game as an example in most of the posts where people are asking about adult games simply because I literally don't play other people's adult games for the most part; not because I think they suck, but because of the stuff I mentioned in the last post about just not having enough time to play anyone else's games. If the topic was completely different from adult games or someone hadn't pinged me to ask me about adult games, I wouldn't mention adult games or my games in my posts at all.)
 

Eyestabber

Arcane
Patron
Joined
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Messages
4,733
Location
HUEland
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
I would rather have a scenario where 1 million people get to play our game but only 100,000 pay for it, than a scenario where 200,000 people pay for it, but that's the amount of people that get to play it. It's why I don't DMCA pirate links and I don't shame anyone pirating the game, people post links to the latest versions in forums I post on and I discuss stuff with people pirating it like I would anyone else.

The point I'm trying to get at with all this in response to what you wrote is that the reason my constant talking about my game works in most places is because the way I talk about it shows that 1) I have a great deal of pride and passion in what we're making, but 2) I just want people to be able to try it out and enjoy it; while we need money to be able to pay our bills, most of the money past that goes right back into the game for voicework, SFX, music, translation, etc. and so money isn't our core focus, making a good game is. Someone being passionate about what they're doing and the field they're in is more powerful than almost anything else when it comes to marketing, so long as they're genuinely passionate.

If you just go forum to forum and slap up some images and text and don't really care too much about your game or aren't super passionate about it, it's going to come off hard as a cash grab and will have the opposite effect, which will just piss off everyone.

At first I'm like:

:happytrollboy:: "Wow, Mr. Indie Game Developer, this is all so heartwarming and exciting. I'm so happy we still have people like you making vidya games!"

and then I remember he is mostly talking about:

- bestiality
- incest
- furry
- loli
- cuck

And then I'm like:

:backawayslowly:: "Well that was...informative"
 

HentaiWriter

Future Fragments
Developer
Joined
Jun 19, 2015
Messages
314
and then I remember he is mostly talking about:

- bestiality
- incest
- furry
- loli
- cuck

Just to clarify again, when I said those were the 5 most popular fetishes, I meant if you were going for just solely "wanting to go for the biggest target audience in the west off of a singular fetish"; a lot of western adult games, ours included, have none of those fetishes.

We also have no scenarios where women are physically injured, or put down (no calling them dumb whores or sluts or whatever else), in fact, most of the sex scenarios in what are otherwise mild to very dark games (for our stuff, at least) are treated comedically; it's one of the most cited reasons why people have liked playing our stuff, because while the game world is taken seriously/is dark comedy, the sex parts are always fairly lighthearted, with the women involved enjoying it as well (per her lines during said cutscenes, etc.)
 

Eyestabber

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
4,733
Location
HUEland
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Fyi, I'm just messing with you.

OTOH, if more fad chasing developers read your posts, they'll know where to look for dem big bucks. Or will they? Because I sincerly doubt you can sell that many copies of some ultra specific fetish, no matter how depraved.

Eh...
 

HentaiWriter

Future Fragments
Developer
Joined
Jun 19, 2015
Messages
314
Fyi, I'm just messing with you.
OTOH, if more fad chasing developers read your posts, they'll know where to look for dem big bucks. Or will they? Because I sincerly doubt you can sell that many copies of some ultra specific fetish, no matter how depraved.
Eh...

Oh, I figured, I just wanted to be clear to people browsing the topic, as you pointed out some might do, so that people don't think universally that it's just all those 5 fetishes and nothing else will succeed.
As far as that many copies of something that's just specifically one of those fetishes...

https://www.patreon.com/fek - Does nothing but furry, gets $25,000+ a month
https://www.patreon.com/palmer - Does incest as primary/only fetish AFAIK, makes an estimated $13,000-58,000 a month according to Graphtreon https://graphtreon.com/creator/palmer
https://www.patreon.com/monstergirlisland - Does monster girl as primary/only fetish (sort of furry), makes an estimated $12,000-52,000 a month according to Graphtreon https://graphtreon.com/creator/monstergirlisland
https://www.patreon.com/mrdotsgames - Did only incest and basically loli (underage) with the look of the characters in his games, was making probably $30,000 before Patreon demanded he axe the underage-looking character, so he made a new game, still has significant popularity
https://www.patreon.com/sandlustgames - Did only incest and cuck, but similar to the above, Patreon canned him because of incest, so he had to do stuff over with a new game and dropped pretty hard as his new game has no cuck and no incest

There was also some dude who did a ton of videos of Lara Croft and others being railed by a horse or something like that and they raked in tens of thousands a month also, but they also got ban-hammered by Patreon.
(Ban hammering in this case = you can keep your account and backers, but you need to change up your content; Patreon is really flexible on this stuff and will give people multiple chances to fix their stuff.)

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING IS PURELY MY OBSERVATION, AND NOT ACTUALLY PATREON'S VERBATIM STANCE OR STATEMENT ON WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY, SO TAKE IT WITH A GRAIN OF SALT

If you're wondering how some people slide by on the incest angle, it's because in Patreon's TOS they hard-ban loli and bestiality, but incest/non-con are subjective (it specifically says that they'll judge incest and non-con on a case by case basis, citing things like Game of Thrones and Lolita for examples of what would be okay), in that;

1) For incest, if you put in an option to allow all the characters to be renamed however you want, then it's on the player to name them incestual names, not the game's creator forcing it on the player, so it's not canon
2) For non-con, if A) the non-con is not glorified (i.e. you make it clear that it's not a good thing, and not to be celebrated), B) the woman is part of a "survivor story" (basically shorthand for "she has weapons/martial arts/can fight back against the enemies"), C) you control the woman so you're able to initiate the fighting back vs. being the aggressor character and D) the woman is not actually ever hurt mentally or physically, with even more points for E) the woman outright saying she enjoys what's going on, turning it into full blown sub-con (subjective consent) at the absolute worst, then you're pretty safe. Patreon has told some devs I know that the "survivor story" (which is quoted in their ToS) is what matters the most, so yeah. (That, and non-con is probably the tamest "extreme" fetish across the globe, given how much it's in hentai as a whole and is generally showing the woman as enjoying it, etc. with that also being the #1 fetish across the globe on a lot of different surveys.)

That all said, much like any service, some people can get hit for the tiniest infraction and others can grossly ignore all infractions and not get hit, either through sheer luck or just loopholes in the rules or whatever else.
 

Rodcocker

Arbiter
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
193
All this and more has already being described in George Gissing's New Grub Street, published in 1891...

It shows artists driving themselves to penury, terminal illness, and suicide trying and failing to create the next great work in a hyper saturated market. It shows that the merit of any work really does matter because the real winners put more of their efforts into playing the game and getting to know the right people before trying to say anything new, and possibly the mass consumer market doesn't even want anything new anyway.

It a book about people writing books, which was popular entertainment back then, and it is video games now. The same rules apply whatever the artistic medium. Inane, repetitive shit sells in great quantities if people are told it is good (see the Marvel movies, 50 shades of grey, and all that). I think the book is worth a read for anyone trying to pursue any creative field. Not to put you off, but to prepare yourself.

Maybe a middle ground has to be struck: real talent and innovation against pragmatic and slightly ruthless business acumen. But does the middle ground get you anywhere these days?

Look at Zoe Quinn, she played the game, is still a major character in the industry, produced nothing of value, and seemingly just walked away from a 90 grand kickstarter, and yet people will still defend her to their dying breath.
 

HentaiWriter

Future Fragments
Developer
Joined
Jun 19, 2015
Messages
314
gets $25,000+ a month
makes an estimated $13,000-58,000
makes an estimated $12,000-52,000
was making probably $30,000
Damn, getting into college was not a good idea, it seems.

As another caveat, note that most of us on the top 50 or so at Patreon have prior experience in various areas of business or entertainment (to my knowledge), so most people with this level of success didn't just go in completely blind with zero experience or anything like that. There's flukes of course, but yeah, having experience in a related industry helps a lot.
 

Machocruz

Arcane
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
4,318
Location
Hyperborea
Another big thing from what I could tell in the OP that was a problem was lack of marketing. A lot of people shit on marketing as "shilling" or whatever other negative stuff, but that's not because marketing itself is inherently a bad thing, that's because people have misused marketing over the decades to drop it down to the scummy level that most people now perceive it as.

Marketing, if done correctly, not only gets your game more attention (as honestly, word of mouth is great but it only works once you've already got an audience), but it can also help you actually connect with your audience through PR and let you show them that yes, you actually give a shit about the people helping you make your game come true with their finances, and yes, you actually give a shit about this game you're making, instead of making it a quick cash grab.

Extremely sad that this even needs to be said. Marketing is a skill. Megacorps spend millions hiring trained PR professionals to market their products or services, yet hipster starving artfags with no business acumen or experience, and consumers who have never produced any creative content in their lives, think they know better. Optimally, an independent developer would hire their own PR expert, but as this is unlikely, what you laid out is the second or third best step (second being you can get someone for cheap or free who has some marketing ability).

Greater creators than any walking the earth today had no reservations about selling themselves, to the point of boasting even. The myth of the pure artist is an elitist idea and a fanciful one.
 
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Curious_Tongue

Larpfest
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Mar 2, 2012
Messages
11,728
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Australia
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Serpent in the Staglands Codex USB, 2014
I am still amazed that in the 4X genre there hasn't been a game with good tactical space combat like Homeworld, Sword of the Stars, Flotilla.
Seems every fucking developers wants to make Master of Orion 2 again and are asking why things are getting crowded, gee I wonder why.

Where are all these MOO2 clones?
 

Jeremiah

Literate
Joined
Aug 31, 2018
Messages
11
Another big thing from what I could tell in the OP that was a problem was lack of marketing.

I agree that the Burgun appears to have done a subpar job on marketing and I agree with a bunch of the other stuff you're saying as well, especially about feedback and being transparent. One of the things I do on the GKH store page is go out of my way to describe what's in the game and what the game is not, because many genre veterans come in bearing a lot of assumptions about what roguelikes offer.

But saying that the missing component of ETO's marketing is being too subjective in its descriptions strikes me as a huge leap. I can't imagine a single extra person buying the game if Burgun instead described it completely detached and 100% cold-bloodedly objective listing only the numerical specifications, as one would describe a lawn mower. In fact the store page description, which consists of a large section about the game's background and general mechanics followed by a small bulleted list of features, seems pretty close to your patreon page (even if I admit Burgun could drop a couple useless words).

  • Five expansive stages, with lots of secrets to find!
  • A Hub Map system that allows you to choose the order you complete maps in!
  • A wide variety of enemy designs, with 20 enemies, 6 bosses, and a total of over 90 H-animations!
  • 150+ optional interactive cutscenes; your choices during them matter, and based on what actions you take throughout the game, you'll end up with one of 36 possible endings!
  • A fleshed out, mystery-driven plot that you can skim the surface of or dive deep into it, it's up to you!
  • 50+ powerups; you can mix and match up to 3 at a time!
  • Professional voice acting for the entire game!
  • Dynamic music and sound that changes based on the events going on around you, in real time!
"Expansive", "a wide variety", "your choices during them matter", "a fleshed out, mystery-driven plot". These are subjective terms. Not that I would fault you for it! I don't think games, novels, films, or meals should be described purely in terms of their ingredients.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,703
Location
California
I feel like this thread now is going in a lot of directions, and for once actually could merit Infinitron splitting it.

As for the question of marketing, here is how GKH describes itself:
Golden Krone Hotel is a gothic horror roguelike. Fight vampires with sunlight or become a vampire yourself and sneak in the shadows. Combines classic turn-based combat with dynamic lighting, an innovative potion system, and fast paced gameplay.
Here is how EtO! describes itself:
It's a Rogue-like DotA! Escape the Omnochronom! is a turn based single-player strategy game set in a unique quirky fantasy universe from the designer of Auro: A Monster-Bumping Adventure.
Since you (Jeremiah) wrote your game's description, I'm guessing you can see for yourself why one is effective marketing and the other is ineffective. But in case not, EtO! is: (1) ridiculously named, so ridiculously named that its feature list starts with a "how to pronounce" parenthetical; (2) described as a mix of two non-mixable genres ("It's an prime-numbered umami!"); (3) given a setting that seems designed to put off a significant player base (not just quirky, but unique quirky!); (4) tied to a game that the player has never heard of (only 37 steam reviews for Auro, of which a quarter are negative), which thus serves only as dead weight (i.e., it is like an unintentional joke along the lines of "You might remember me as the author of a book you never heard of..."). Even on a basic grammatical level, it's very poorly written. (inb4 MRY, you have typos in this post too!!!) By contrast, your game: (1) has an intriguingly weird name; (2) has genres/features that immediately fit together; (3) is given a setting that draws a lot of players (gothic horror vampire); and (4) conveys design maturity because it lists relevant features and is competently written.

Everything about your game's Steam page is appealing, everything about his game's isn't. Just compare the games' logos:
header.jpg

I wouldn't even know the game's name from this, because I wouldn't recognize the "O" as a letter. And it looks lousy.

header.jpg

Instantly pokes the Castlevania/Ravenloft nostalgia button.

His blurb starts:
Escape the Omnochronom! is a single player turn based strategy game that combines Roguelike and MOBA elements into something new.
To be clear, these are three wildly different genres. TBS games focus on large numbers of units, resource gathering, and tech-tree advancement on a single map. RL games focus on a single-character gaining levels while exploring multiple maps. Both of these are turn-based. MOBAs focus on a small number of separately controlled heroes controlling lanes on a single map. Everything from concept, to feel, to balance, to flow is entirely different among these genres. Thus, his blurb literally tells me nothing about the game.

Your blurb starts:
Golden Krone Hotel is a gothic horror roguelike. Fight vampires with sunlight or become a vampire yourself and sneak in the shadows.
I know exactly what your game is, and it sounds great. It's a classic roguelike, in a cool setting, with a cool core feature.

To me, "subjective" vs. "objective" isn't quite right. It's that what he's saying has hardly any content at all. There are words, and I know what the words mean, but ultimately he is just giving me his conclusions: "something new that has elements of many things" describes every game; that your setting is "quirky unique" tells me nothing (since I can't judge whether that means "fascinatingly novel" or "stupidly random"); and that you made some other game I've never heard of is equally irrelevant other than that it means you made something else first -- "A tree, from the baby who drew a sun." He may later offer additional features, but anyone who can endure long enough to get that far should be using his divine patience on worthier pursuits.

I guess what I'd say is that unlike your game's page (which to me shows that you love your game and your players more than you love yourself), EtO!'s page is 100% consistent with the entitlement problem I have with the whole "indiepocalypse" mentality. But for Steam opening its floodgates, most indie games would have no customers at all. EtO! is clearly on that side of the line. Living in the golden age when he nevertheless has a chance to put his game before the masses, he'd rather please himself with "Omnochronom (Om-KNOCK-Row-Nom)" and an ! in his title, buzzwords like "quirky" and "toxic," and "this game is EVERY GENRE ONLY BETTER" fanfare. I think it's fantastic that he's making games, that he has a podcast that helps others learn design techniques, and that he's managed to earn a little money at it. All that just confirms to me that if this is an indie-post-apocalypse, we're in Vault City or something.
 

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