The key to understanding RPGs

[MilesBeyond]

"What's an RPG?" is such a stupid question and overasked question that it's hard to take seriously. Nevertheless, I felt compelled to post this (slightly tongue in cheek) thread. The key to defining RPGs is:

The Sims.

Think about it. The Sims is intuitively and obviously not an RPG. And yet, mechanically, it has just about everything that makes an RPG. Character creation and customization. Stats that can be increased. Skills that gain XP when you use them and that have a demonstrable impact on how you can interact with the world around you. Quests - yes, quests. Those quests may be things like "Learn x song on guitar and perform it at the theatre in the next three days for five hundred bucks" but they're still quests - and (very, very slightly) more advanced quests than your typical "Go here, fetch this," to boot. It has romance (lol). It has choice and consequence! If you choose to have an affair and get caught macking on your side ho in public, your job performance can suffer as your boss starts to hate your two-timing ass, and your wife will be furious (fortunately both of these problems can be solved through ample high-fiving).

And yet, like I said before, even to people who have almost no experience with RPGs, The Sims is obviously not an RPG.

So, my (again, only semi-serious) theory is this: If we can find out why The Sims is not an RPG, we'll have put our finger on what makes something an RPG.

 

[Sigourn]

It's an arbitrary term and thus the interpretation will always be subjective.

The moment you decide not to roleplay, the game loses whatever "roleplaying" potential it had. This is the difference with racing games. You have to race in order to win. In roleplaying games, you can just not roleplay and still finish the game.

I'm betting CoD players had more immersive roleplaying experiences that I've had with some "roleplaying" games.

 

[Fowyr]

For starters, no combat - not RPG.

 

[Neanderthal]

Key to roleplayin games:
1. Follow quest compass.
2. Scrap.
3. Loot crap.
4. Town screen, talk an recycle crap.
5. Goto 1.

 

[MilesBeyond]

For starters, no combat - not RPG.

Sure there's combat. I mean it's automatic, but it's there.

 

[Fowyr]

Sure there's combat. I mean it's automatic, but it's there.

Automatic. So, no combat.

P.S. I never played Sims.

 

[Sigourn]

For starters, no combat - not RPG.

What does combat have to do with roleplaying?

You can perfectly roleplay without combat.

I insist we should create a Codex approved definition of what an RPG should be like.

To me, the key features are:

- You must have a voice, your character must be able to decide and you should be able to say "no".
- If you can create your own character, the game should react to the differences between one build and another.

This is why I don't consider FF games to be RPGs, you are a medium, nothing you do changes anything, your actions don't follow any "logic" other than your character's which you can't influence in any way or form. And to boot, the game doesn't give a shit about your "build". You are either strong enough to beat enemies, or you aren't.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

Automatic. So, no combat.

I have seen people arguing here that it is essential for RPGs that stats have to be more important than player skill and that therefore the best possible combat system for an RPG would be one that is completely automatized based on stats and doesn't allow player agency.

 

[pippin]

The Sims are an RPG because behaviors and "roles" are defined by stats, something that's lost since a long time.

 

[Telengard]

The Sims will one day be known as the bestest RPG evah!, seizing that crown from HALO. After all, it has all the signature signs of rpg - a story that reacts to character stats, adventure in exotic places (if you buy the adventure pack, of course - EA), and like a billion dresses and hair style options. What more could any modern rpg player ask for? Detailed combat and intricate resource management. Psh! Lame! Get out of the 80s, man. You're dated.

That whole thing about the name "Sims" being a short of "simulated people", and the thing being a sim game -- all lies and ignorance. It's an rpg, and it outdoes all of the so-called real rpgs at providing players the things they actually want from their rpgs.

 

[vonAchdorf]

The Sims are an RPG because behaviors and "roles" are defined by stats, something that's lost since a long time.

Not only stats, but also classes.

And flaws which actually haven an impact on gameplay.

 

[zerosum]

It is hard to imagine an RPG without some form of quests. I'm also of the opinion that combat is essential. The gameplay cycle of combat->loot->upgrade exists in every RPG I can think of. The Sims has none of that.

 

[Kane]

For starters, no combat - not RPG.

 

[King Crispy]

I insist we should create a Codex approved definition of what an RPG should be like.

Holy fuck where did you come from

 

[pippin]

It is hard to imagine an RPG without some form of quests. I'm also of the opinion that combat is essential. The gameplay cycle of combat->loot->upgrade exists in every RPG I can think of. The Sims has none of that.

Your Sim can get a job (quest)
That job could be in the military iirc (combat)
You get paid for your job (loot)
You buy better things for your house (upgrade)

 

[Sigourn]

Holy fuck where did you come from

Your mom's vagina.

I'm your brother, Crispy.

 

[Haraldur]

One part of gameplay that all RPGs, that I remember playing, have is exploration (it is probably the aspect I enjoy the most, so for me the setting is a very important part of the game). The player must explore the dungeon or city or world, finding rewards (loot or NPCs -- text/voice-over dispensers, with an additional exploration element, often, in navigating dialogue-trees), and overcoming challenges (combat or puzzles) to continue exploration. The Sims does not really have that -- certainly not as a core part of the gameplay: you get a house (or design one), perhaps move house, and that is it; you are otherwise stationary and can do many fruitful/gamey things in your one place. An RPG that provided only five or fewer rooms for the character/party to move around in would almost certainly be considered a tech-demo, or unfinished, as there is likely little to do -- usually, with the exception of shops and the like, a typical area is essentially useless after having been visited a few times, as the player has talked to all the NPCs, taken all the loot, done all the quests and killed all the enemies. Usually, in an RPG, the game ends shortly after all areas have been explored (if they have) -- exceptions would likely involve a final boss that moves to another previously explored area (which would now, arguably, be a new "unexplored" area) or which defeats the player in some scripted or contingent fashion, allowing a second try.

 

[Sigourn]

Exploration, combat, quests, hmmm....

Shouldn't that be, like, the definition of an adventure game? You know, going on an adventure where you explore, kill shit, and do things for people?

 

[Grauken]

Do you control a group of heavily armed murder-hobos going into hostile territory?

Obviously not an RPG.

 

[cruelio]

The key to understanding rpgs is that all rpgs are really bad including the rpgs you played when you were a kid before you were smart enough to realize all rpgs are really bad and because you played the rpgs when you were a kid with a soft stupid brain the rpgs gave you retardation and that's why as an adult you keep playing rpgs and posting threads on rpg codex about what the key to understanding rpgs is.

 

[Fowyr]

Exploration, combat, quests, hmmm....

Shouldn't that be, like, the definition of an adventure game?

No, adventure game is where you are exploring world in search of square pegs to fill square holes. Or not so square in case of Dare to Dream where you use fish tail on the door to open it.

What does combat have to do with roleplaying?
You can perfectly roleplay without combat.

What roleplaying does with cRPGs? Letter R in their name? You can roleplay in Tetris, for all I care.

This is why I don't consider FF games to be RPGs, you are a medium, nothing you do changes anything, your actions don't follow any "logic" other than your character's which you can't influence in any way or form. And to boot, the game doesn't give a shit about your "build". You are either strong enough to beat enemies, or you aren't.

Do you know, my dear child, that Final Fantasy was derpy cousin of early Wizardries and Ultimas? I.e. fundamental cRPG series. Of course, you probably will say that Wizardry is not RPG too! To the Hurkle beast in the torture chamber with you!

 

[baturinsky]

World Adventures addon has real quests and dungeons with traps, hidden doors, keys, enemies (though rare), the stuff.

Even in base game in Sims 3 you can just leave your home location and never go back, surfing other sims houses and community lots.

I my opinion, The Sims is an RPG, and one of the best ones.

 

[octavius]

So many buttons, but no

 

[Hyperion]

I'll consider The Sims an RPG the same time I consider taking a walk to buy a cup of coffee an RPG. Which, coincidentally is Pokemon Go. And is in the JRPG forum.

Fuck.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

The three basic components of RPGs are exploration, combat, and characters.

Remove exploration and you have a squad-based tactics game with character customization/progression (often referred to as SRPGs, but this is misleading as they're much closer to a tactics game than an RPG).

Remove both exploration and (meaningful) combat, while adding more to the character development/simulation aspects, and you have something like Princess Maker, Wonder Project J, or The Sims, forming their own genre(s) distinct from RPGs.