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Moonspeak The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask.

DragoFireheart

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MM_Art.jpg




Why this Zelda game?

It's one of the most challenging Zelda game (Zelda 2 is hardtest personally). It's also the darkest Zelda game in terms of story and mood. The ending is bittersweet, most of the characters are suffering in some significant way, and the main villain has arguably caused far more damage compared to Ganon-dork. The mask system is a very well done concept, the dungeons are complex and challenging, and the game has aged surprisingly well.



What makes Majora's Mask special?

I believe what has made Majora's Mask really special was the sheer depth of the game. Between the dungeons being well done despite their small quantity (Stone Tower Temple) and the mini-quests, MM doesn't feel like a Zelda game in many ways. Most Zelda games don't share the same amount of depth in story and dungeon complexity as Majora's Mask.


But it's on a console!

And what's your point? Either buy a N64 and enjoy the great experience or Emulate it. Your loss if you make excuses to not play it.
 

Fat Dragon

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I'd say OoT is just as dark, if not darker than Majora's Mask. There's nothing as shocking and disturbing in MM as that first time you exited the Temple of Time in OoT and saw the entire city burnt to the ground and swarmed with undead. Death is a pretty major themes in both games. I enjoy both games but have always favored OoT myself. But the stone tower in MM is probably the single best dungeon in the entire series.

Hopefully Nintendo will make a 3DS remake for this like they did OoT.
 

Whisky

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MM really is something special. Unique premise and tons of great sidequests.

Plus the thing scared the shit out of me as a kid. It's funny how MM was so dark, when TP was the Zelda game intentionally planned as the dark entry in the series.
 

DragoFireheart

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I'd say OoT is just as dark, if not darker than Majora's Mask. There's nothing as shocking and disturbing in MM as that first time you exited the Temple of Time in OoT and saw the entire city burnt to the ground and swarmed with undead. Death is a pretty major themes in both games. I enjoy both games but have always favored OoT myself. But the stone tower in MM is probably the single best dungeon in the entire series.

Hopefully Nintendo will make a 3DS remake for this like they did OoT.

OoT has a happy ending with little to no suffering for anyone. I don't think anyone even dies in OoT besides that one guard in the alley. Most everyone just moves to the village next door (SO SCARY, RELOCATED). In MoM, no less than 3 people are dead as soon as you start the game. Even when you finish the game, not every character is getting that happy ending. Remember the funky looking tree at the beginning of the game?

As far as a 3DS remake goes, it's going to be remade after Link to Worlds IIRC.
 

Whisky

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Don't forget to mention the fact:

Link never returns to Hyrule and as far as we know, he never finds Navi (Though most of us consider that a happy ending.).
 

DragoFireheart

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Don't forget to mention the fact:

Link never returns to Hyrule and as far as we know, he never finds Navi (Though most of us consider that a happy ending.).

This is supported by:

The Hero's spirit in Twilight Princess who's actually the Hero of Time. Full of regret. Hero of Time got screwed which is ironic because that Link is probably the most popular and well known.
 
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It is the last great Zelda game as far as I'm concerned. Wind Waker is the only Zelda game since that I've liked, and it paled in comparison imo. MM is just so good.

And yeah, it is much darker than any other entry. The Mirror Shield is unsettling. The creepy little Link clones your create with the Ellegy of Emptiness is unsettling. Or Kamaro's Mask, which depicts a faceless Link with another man's head stitched onto his forehead. Every mask that transforms you is born out of someone else's untimely death. The first NPC you meet is a dead Deku Scrub, and the game kindly reminds you that he's still dead in the ending credits.

There's too much I like about MM for me to name. I loved the baller flips and somersaults Link does in the game. The goddamn Fierce Dieity Mask. MM had some of the better dungeons in the series, like the Stone Tower, with all its gravity manipulating shenanigans. It was also fun to stalk townspeople throughout the 3-day, and watch them start losing their shit when the Moon starts getting close. MM just seems to have more soul than the more recent Zelda titles, albeit a rather twisted one. Despite its brilliance, most people seem to dislike the time mechanic, so I doubt we'll see another Zelda like it again.

The only real complaint I have with the game is that I found the combat too easy. Granted, I'd probably lost perspective with how many times I had finished OoT, but I remember just spamming spin slash pretty much took care of everything. When you upgraded your spin slash in MM, the fully charged version would get used when you did 'spin the control stick' version of the attack. It would do more damage than a jump attack at no magic cost, if you kept the right rhythm you could stunlock enemies with it, and you could spin slash with the Great Fairy Sword. Majora was a pushover.

Just to get it out of the way, my personal ranking of Zelda games would be:

MM > OoT = Link's Awakening > Zelda 2 > Wind Waker > LTTP
 

DragoFireheart

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It is the last great Zelda game as far as I'm concerned. Wind Waker is the only Zelda game since that I've liked, and it paled in comparison imo. MM is just so good.

And yeah, it is much darker than any other entry. The Mirror Shield is unsettling. The creepy little Link clones your create with the Ellegy of Emptiness is unsettling. Or Kamaro's Mask, which depicts a faceless Link with another man's head stitched onto his forehead. Every mask that transforms you is born out of someone else's untimely death. The first NPC you meet is a dead Deku Scrub, and the game kindly reminds you that he's still dead in the ending credits.

There's too much I like about MM for me to name. I loved the baller flips and somersaults Link does in the game. The goddamn Fierce Dieity Mask. MM had some of the better dungeons in the series, like the Stone Tower, with all its gravity manipulating shenanigans. It was also fun to stalk townspeople throughout the 3-day, and watch them start losing their shit when the Moon starts getting close. MM just seems to have more soul than the more recent Zelda titles, albeit a rather twisted one. Despite its brilliance, most people seem to dislike the time mechanic, so I doubt we'll see another Zelda like it again.

It's a damn shame too. At first, I did not like the time aspect, but playing it again I've grown to like it as it allows more depth in world interaction. It's funny seeing how a simple event like getting that Inn reservation forces a poor Goron to sleep outside.


The only real complaint I have with the game is that I found the combat too easy. Granted, I'd probably lost perspective with how many times I had finished OoT, but I remember just spamming spin slash pretty much took care of everything. When you upgraded your spin slash in MM, the fully charged version would get used when you did 'spin the control stick' version of the attack. It would do more damage than a jump attack at no magic cost, if you kept the right rhythm you could stunlock enemies with it, and you could spin slash with the Great Fairy Sword. Majora was a pushover.

Yeah, combat is mostly a joke in MM, but not as easy as TP. Speaking of which...

Just to get it out of the way, my personal ranking of Zelda games would be:

What did you think of Twilight Princess?
 

Fat Dragon

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I'd say OoT is just as dark, if not darker than Majora's Mask. There's nothing as shocking and disturbing in MM as that first time you exited the Temple of Time in OoT and saw the entire city burnt to the ground and swarmed with undead. Death is a pretty major themes in both games. I enjoy both games but have always favored OoT myself. But the stone tower in MM is probably the single best dungeon in the entire series.

Hopefully Nintendo will make a 3DS remake for this like they did OoT.

OoT has a happy ending with little to no suffering for anyone. I don't think anyone even dies in OoT besides that one guard in the alley. Most everyone just moves to the village next door (SO SCARY, RELOCATED). In MoM, no less than 3 people are dead as soon as you start the game. Even when you finish the game, not every character is getting that happy ending. Remember the funky looking tree at the beginning of the game?

As far as a 3DS remake goes, it's going to be remade after Link to Worlds IIRC.
A lot of people die in OoT, even moreso than MM. For example, there are A LOT of people in the Castletown who do not appear when you become an adult. Several game and item shop owners like the mask guy and bomchu lady, some npcs like that guy running around all over the town and those two dancers, not to mention the several large crowds of people you always saw gathered in town. And obviously every single guard, not just that guy in the alley. Even the very first dungeon in the game is a living entity who dies right in front of Link.

There are also a lot more subtle things. Kakariko Village alone is more mysterious and creepy than most areas in MM. It's literally infested with undead and strange demons. The graveyard is full of ghosts, and one of the graves opens up into a tomb full of zombies guarding a song that can instantly change night to day; there's also a little blind boy wandering alone in the graveyard with nobody looking after him. The royal family's tomb is actually a giant catacomb-like religious temple full of torture devices and giant demons like Bongo Bongo. And even the town well leads to another catacomb underneath the village full of torture devices and that giant zombie with multiple arms. There's also Dampe's tomb, another npc who died during the time skip and we never learn why. Anju the chicken lady has a brother who was outcast from the village for being a freak and ended up hiding in the Lost Woods. When you return as an adult, he's no longer there and has turned into a skull kid you end up killing.

Kokori Village gets swarmed with monsters in the future and the children who live there are too scared to leave their homes. They also can't leave the village or they'll die, but they can't hide in the Lost Woods or they'll turn to skull kids. The Gorons have all been kidnapped and locked in a dungeon to be eaten by a dragon; there's also not as many of them as there were when you were a child. Zora's Domain has been frozen over and almost all of the Zora are nowhere to be seen, not to mention Jabu Jabu is noticeably absent.
 

DragoFireheart

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Ah yeah, a couple more people are confirmed dead.

Anyways, I'll agree to disagree.
 
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It's a damn shame too. At first, I did not like the time aspect, but playing it again I've grown to like it as it allows more depth in world interaction. It's funny seeing how a simple event like getting that Inn reservation forces a poor Goron to sleep outside.

Yup. I've never understood how people can dislike the mechanic, MM is basically Ground Hog's Day: The Game. I guess people just don't realize that you can slow down time or just never the game a chance in the first place.

It's easily the most reactive Zelda game there is. Not in the sense that there's a million different ways to accomplish a goal like Deus Ex, more in that it's very dense with content that you'll only really see if you're looking for it or stalking a townsperson. People act differently not only based on some of the quests you've finished in some cases, but also depending on what mask you're wearing and what time of day it is. Go visit Romani Ranch on Day 3 without completing the UFO quest and the little girl is basically a husk. When a thief steals a bomb bag from an old woman, you can either slash the stolen bag free or just blow up the fucker with an arrow (which does end the quest immediately, but is funny to do). There's even the little touches like the slutty girl who runs the treasure chest mini game charging the roguish, teen heart-throb Zora Link less rupees than she does fat doofus Goron Link :patriot:

What did you think of Twilight Princess?

My feelings on TP are pretty much 'meh'. I only played through it once, and never had the desire to really touch it again. I was absolutely psyched for it when it was announced and watched the trailers obsessively. I mean, who could forget?



I'm not the toughest critic, but I don't think the game that was released was 'bad' per se. It just didn't live up to the hype and really failed to do anything as exemplary as the other games in the series. Most of my complaints about the game you'll probably find repeated by other people on the internet.

For one, yeah, as you said, the combat was really fucking easy. As an experiment, I remember standing still and taking the blows from the last boss to see how long it would take for him to kill me (not including fairies, even). It ended up taking something like a 1.5-2.5 minutes? Ridiculous. I don't know how inept Nintendo thinks its playerbase is, but that's a pretty far cry from the punishing difficulty in Zelda 1/2. Which wouldn't be so bad in itself, but you very rarely get anything but heart pieces and sword techniques from uncovering secrets. What's the point of all these sword moves when you practically can't die already? I remember the big, secret reward in the game being a suit of armor that drains rupees instead of hearts. Just what I needed.

One of the big things I liked about OoT and MM was sequence breaking and the neat little tricks you could do. In OoT you could grab a heart piece in the windmill early by tagging it with the boomerang. You could grab a heart piece above Goron's Lair by backflipping off a railing. I always had the Biggoron Sword before starting the Forest Temple, just like I always had Bunny Ears by the first dungeon in MM. TP seemed too gated in comparison. You were always cut off by one barrier or another before you could proceed, maybe I'm mistaken but it seemed much more linear than its predecessors. It's the Metroid Fusion of Zelda games.

It wasn't all bad, or anything. But it lacked some of the excitement in exploration that some of the previous entries had. At the start of every zone, you need to go through that dumb bug-catching fetch quest as the Wolf. God help you if you can't find that one last bug, and your reward every time is simply 'now you can play in this zone'. The game was full of cool items and neat ideas that weren't really fully realized. The ball and chain was badass, but where was it used? Double Hookshots? The Spinner? The hawk-summoning reed? All of those items were cool in their own right, but you never really used them outside of dungeons you find them. It's like every item was the kinda neat but ultimately pointless Ice Arrows from OoT.

For what it's worth, the game had some good set pieces and I loved it aesthetically. TP Link is a straight up baller, and I played the shit out of him in Smash Bros. The Twlight Realm itself is cool. The bow and arrow was really fun to use, I remember shooting the pupil of one of those eye-laser monsters through the small hole in a swinging guillotine. The horseback sequence in the last boss fight was neat, as was the Western-themed shootout. But ultimately, it was a pretty big disappointment to me and I honestly haven't kept up with the series as much since. I think Twilight Princess needed its own Majora's Mask, instead of the direction the series has taken. I also think it would've turned out better if they hadn't wasted dev time on the Wii version and just kept it on the Gamecube.
 
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The music in MM is also pretty awesome. There were some few songs in OoT which were more threatening, but "safe" areas had soothing songs. Nearly every song in MM sounds a little off (which, combined with the permanently visible clock at the bottom of the screen, always kept you feeling like you were in a hurry).

A lot of people die in OoT, even moreso than MM. For example, there are A LOT of people in the Castletown who do not appear when you become an adult. Several game and item shop owners like the mask guy and bomchu lady, some npcs like that guy running around all over the town and those two dancers, not to mention the several large crowds of people you always saw gathered in town. And obviously every single guard, not just that guy in the alley. Even the very first dungeon in the game is a living entity who dies right in front of Link.

Also the sages. Remember how they'll usually rush ahead of Link, only reappearing to say thanks in the Temple of Light, after you beat the boss? Yeah.

Don't forget to mention the fact:

Link never returns to Hyrule and as far as we know, he never finds Navi (Though most of us consider that a happy ending.).

He ends up in Termina while looking for her and taking a wrong turn in the lost woods as he chased the skull kid, and returns to Hyrule at the end of MM.
 
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Rivmusique

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Both 64 Zelda's are 2 of my all time favourites. Majora's has stronger side content, while OoT has stronger main dungeons (Stone temple is amazing, the zora one is okay, but the other 2 are quite dull. Considering there are only four, that's not too good). The soundtracks are amazing. It's been awhile since I have had an OoT playthrough, might give it a go soon.
 

sea

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Yup. I've never understood how people can dislike the mechanic, MM is basically Ground Hog's Day: The Game. I guess people just don't realize that you can slow down time or just never the game a chance in the first place.
Because people don't like feeling pressured when playing big, sprawling adventure games. The ticking clock is very generous in reality, but most people want to explore and take their time, so the mere feeling of being on a leash is frustrating to them. I understand it even if I think it makes Majora's Mask a far more interesting - though not necessarily better game. It doesn't really add to the gameplay directly, though I will say it does at least reinforce the themes and story very well, and there are too many benefits that you couldn't get if it was dropped.

It's easily the most reactive Zelda game there is. Not in the sense that there's a million different ways to accomplish a goal like Deus Ex, more in that it's very dense with content that you'll only really see if you're looking for it or stalking a townsperson. People act differently not only based on some of the quests you've finished in some cases, but also depending on what mask you're wearing and what time of day it is. Go visit Romani Ranch on Day 3 without completing the UFO quest and the little girl is basically a husk. When a thief steals a bomb bag from an old woman, you can either slash the stolen bag free or just blow up the fucker with an arrow (which does end the quest immediately, but is funny to do). There's even the little touches like the slutty girl who runs the treasure chest mini game charging the roguish, teen heart-throb Zora Link less rupees than she does fat doofus Goron Link
:thumbsup:

I always got a kick out of the fact that she charged different Links differently too.

This kind of thing is "nothing special" compared to some games (and we expect a lot of this in full-on RPGs) but in an action-adventure game it's unprecedented, and makes up a lot of the soul of Majora's Mask. It's those little details that make the whole game, not some huge epic quest to save the world (which I think accounts for its lack of popularity overall, it requires a bit of digging to really get the appeal).

I'm not the toughest critic, but I don't think the game that was released was 'bad' per se. It just didn't live up to the hype and really failed to do anything as exemplary as the other games in the series. Most of my complaints about the game you'll probably find repeated by other people on the internet.
Twilight Princess is a damn near exemplary game. Excellent visuals, huge game world to explore, good dungeons with some fun and challenging puzzles (though not as tough as past games, even The Wind Waker), and the boss fights were very memorable. It had some unique twists that felt decidedly un-Zelda at times, though I'm not sure they worked well.

But the problem is despite its strengths, it was clearly still made as a way to appease Ocarina of Time fanboys, and thus the presentation was brown and boring much of the time, the story was melodramatic and lacking in subtlety (not to mention took way too long to get going), and it was full of a lot of pointless references to past games which really had no benefit whatsoever other than feeding more "timeline theory" addicts. The tacked-on controls in the Wii version also didn't help, though I personally didn't really hate them either once I got used to them, and I did appreciate the ability to aim a bow very quickly.

I also agree about the combat. Ocarina of Time wasn't super-hard, but those fights against Stalfos were often tense due to the way they would very carefully maintain their guard and only attack when you let yours down - fighting one alone was tough when you weren't too experienced yet, and three during the endgame can give some trouble still even for me, after having beaten the game like 10 fucking times. But Twilight Princess... the only tough part in the entire game is that combat challenge in the desert, and only because it's entirely an attrition challenge. The Wind Waker had the same problem though I actually found it harder towards the end due to them putting you against large numbers of enemies.
 

Caim

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A lot of people die in OoT, even moreso than MM. For example, there are A LOT of people in the Castletown who do not appear when you become an adult. Several game and item shop owners like the mask guy and bomchu lady, some npcs like that guy running around all over the town and those two dancers, not to mention the several large crowds of people you always saw gathered in town. And obviously every single guard, not just that guy in the alley. Even the very first dungeon in the game is a living entity who dies right in front of Link.

Also the sages. Remember how they'll usually rush ahead of Link, only reappearing to say thanks in the Temple of Light, after you beat the boss? Yeah.
I do have to wonder: do you *have* to die to become a Sage? If so, Zelda is a Sage to and very much alive in the last bit of the game where you fight Ganondorf. Unless of course she was dead to begin with and you only rescued her spirit which kept itself inside its body by sheer willpower to help Link in which case she must have been a ghost in MM which would mean the entire game might as well been Link losing his shit in the Lost Woods and... whoa. WHOA.

Anyway, I'd like a Zelda game in which you fight alongside the Sages/Maidens/macguffin people against the various dungeon bosses. Especially Zelda.

And having her at your side for the entire game, fighting and solving puzzles (not just her ghost like in ST) would justify buying a WiiU for me.
 
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There are three possibilities.

a) You don't need to die but it's more dramatic this way. Zelda avoids it because she's way too pro for dis shit

b) You need to die, but the previous sage of Light is still active so fate doesn't have to pull some strings to ensure Zelda dies and takes his place.
 

DragoFireheart

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Twilight Princess is a damn near exemplary game. Excellent visuals, huge game world to explore, good dungeons with some fun and challenging puzzles (though not as tough as past games, even The Wind Waker), and the boss fights were very memorable. It had some unique twists that felt decidedly un-Zelda at times, though I'm not sure they worked well.

But the problem is despite its strengths, it was clearly still made as a way to appease Ocarina of Time fanboys, and thus the presentation was brown and boring much of the time, the story was melodramatic and lacking in subtlety (not to mention took way too long to get going), and it was full of a lot of pointless references to past games which really had no benefit whatsoever other than feeding more "timeline theory" addicts. The tacked-on controls in the Wii version also didn't help, though I personally didn't really hate them either once I got used to them, and I did appreciate the ability to aim a bow very quickly.

I also agree about the combat. Ocarina of Time wasn't super-hard, but those fights against Stalfos were often tense due to the way they would very carefully maintain their guard and only attack when you let yours down - fighting one alone was tough when you weren't too experienced yet, and three during the endgame can give some trouble still even for me, after having beaten the game like 10 fucking times. But Twilight Princess... the only tough part in the entire game is that combat challenge in the desert, and only because it's entirely an attrition challenge. The Wind Waker had the same problem though I actually found it harder towards the end due to them putting you against large numbers of enemies.

I'm one of those "fans" that was actually very happy that TP tried to be OoT 2. It's why it's my favorite Zelda game (GameCube verison). Only things I truly disliked was the beginning being too slow and the Wolf parts with collecting Tears of light.

It was a bit hyped up though.

I've had this personal gripe with OoT when I was younger. The fact that I couldn't use the boomerang as Adult Link has caused me to hold a personal, irrational grudge towards OoT even now. I grew up with the original Zeldas and the boomerang is very iconic to me. The fact that one of the first dungeon items you get in TP is probably the coolest boomerang in the series sold it to me.
 

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I used to underrate OoT, saying it's "not that good" - but when you play it years, years later, well past 25 it hits you: they don't design dungeons like that anymore. There's no more flow, no more thought. Everything in OoT was placed with a lot of attention and care; just like in MM. You can often tell how good a game is based on how well things are placed in it: enemies, power-ups, eye-candy. In the thoughtful use of such design elements the truly great game reveals itself. Masters of this kind of philosophy are games like God Hand - every enemy placed with thought - or good shoot 'em ups, like Ikaruga - each enemy plane, each item, each destructible object placed with a sort of obsession that requires a madman.

I'm not afraid to name OoT and MM among these greats. Just play one TP or Skyward Sword dungeon, then go visit the OoT Deku Tree. The difference is startling, at least to me. The way all the colors have been composed, the enemies placed, the use of the third dimension - all these things.

And like every annual MM thread I will not end my post without mentioning that the moon and entering it are a hallmark moment Zelda; perhaps the best moment. Grabbing the Master Sword in LttP comes close, too.
 

DragoFireheart

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I'm not afraid to name OoT and MM among these greats. Just play one TP or Skyward Sword dungeon, then go visit the OoT Deku Tree. The difference is startling, at least to me. The way all the colors have been composed, the enemies placed, the use of the third dimension - all these things.

TP was the last Zelda game with great dungeons. Skyward Sword was pretty shit (they fucking reused dungeons and massive back tracking :decline:)

For TP, see: Goron Mines, Lakebed Temple, Arbiter's Grounds, Snowpeak Ruins, City in the Sky.
 

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I had a lot of hopes for Skyward, despite being a bit bored with TP. They kept saying that things were different, and they certainly were, but man were they not positive. The overworld was even worse than Wind Waker's (Which isn't as bad as some people say.) and although the WiiMotion Plus sword motions were a nice touch, pretty much all enemies (At least, as far as I got) just required a certain type of slash.
 
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A lot of people die in OoT

I played OoT a few months ago for the first time in many years, collecting every single heart and extra item, and yeah, it was WAY more grimdark than I remember it being. I really enjoyed the fact that the Japs who developed a children's video game, had the balls to introduce death and mayhem to their young audience. Of course, Ganondorf was written like your typical retarded Japanese antagonist, but you can't win them all. If we as a society could go back to having the balls to make our entertainment dark, sad, and mysterious, I could die a happy man.

I remember reading a Youtube comment about how the people at Kokoriko village were drinking contaminated water, since under the well was a fucking crypt with rotting corpses, mummies, and zombies, and it never really clicked in my head until that guy verbalized it, and It's the small things like that, that made OoT good.
 
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Most grimdark part about OoT is that Link either dies or is forgotten, causing his spirit to remain bound to the world because of his resentment over this fact and that he wants at least some legacy to pass on.
 

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Most grimdark part about OoT is that Link either dies or is forgotten, causing his spirit to remain bound to the world because of his resentment over this fact and that he wants at least some legacy to pass on.
Where does this come from???
 

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Dutchland
Most grimdark part about OoT is that Link either dies or is forgotten, causing his spirit to remain bound to the world because of his resentment over this fact and that he wants at least some legacy to pass on.
Where does this come from???

170px-Hero%27s_Shade.png


As confirmed in Hyrule Historia.
 

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