Moonspeak The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask.

[Luckra]

Spoiler

I find it amusing how it's "Kyaa!" and not "Eek!" as you'd expect it to be translated today.

This is part of the trading sequence. Link has to get that flower in that mermaid's hair, for which he offered in the original Japanese version the bikini top that she lost. Which is why she's going all that: girl's topless.

In the English version however this shit did not fly and they turned it into something more wholesome: Link had to give her a pearl necklace to get the flower.

What is there to watch under a mermaid?

 

[Caim]

Spoiler

I find it amusing how it's "Kyaa!" and not "Eek!" as you'd expect it to be translated today.

This is part of the trading sequence. Link has to get that flower in that mermaid's hair, for which he offered in the original Japanese version the bikini top that she lost. Which is why she's going all that: girl's topless.

In the English version however this shit did not fly and they turned it into something more wholesome: Link had to give her a pearl necklace to get the flower.

What is there to watch under a mermaid?

Only her head is above the surface of the water, so I'd say boobs.

 

[Keldryn]

What is there to watch under a mermaid?

I think your parents were supposed to have this conversation with you...

 

[Machocruz]

So I fired up Project 64 and the game to do some "research." I played the game about 14 years ago, when I didn't look at games the same way I do now, because the decline hadn't hit its stride yet. I never finished it. When I boot it up, it's set to a higher resolution by default. Edges are clean even without AA. Otherwise I'm playing the game as is, no texture packs.

It's the last and perhaps most visionary game Nintendo has ever made. It carries through on all levels, from structure, to mechanics, theme, plot, visuals. The best Mario games are visionary in terms of mechanics and level design, but not beyond that. Super Metroid is a fuller package than Mario, but not as original or plain bugnuts as MM. And this is just based on the events leading up to removing the Deku mask. Darkness or edginess do not impress me in themselves, but they can provide visual and thematic texture and give the pure-hearted protagonist (and thus the player) a real force of evil to contend with. Afa Nintendo is concerned, it reached its peak in MM, and then almost vanished. Remember, when you fought Bowser in the original SMB, it was amidst a lake of fire and darkness (or as close as the NES could get to depicting those things back then). By SMW, you're fighting him while he flies around in a fucking clown car. They tried to bring back a dark texture to Twilight Princess, but by then it was too late, and the results felt forced to many.

I don't have to explain the time structure to anyone familiar with the game. It's a brilliant shake-up of the series and action-adventure games in general. Only in the pre-Decline era could this happen.

Another thing I noticed is that the story-telling is surprisingly good. It's still fantasy gobbledygook like most video games, but they really knew how to present it in this game. The cutscenes, dialogue, and plot work together very well, which is to say that unlike in most games, they don't utterly embarass the medium and aren't obviously stolen bits from movies, Joss Whedon, and games that sold well the year before. As with Okami, which is being discussed in another thread, this is a game that will pull me through based on an enjoyable plot and characters, one of a handful of games I can say that about. LoZ was never this good in the storytelling category again, or before. Twilight Princess was an undisciplined mess of a plot, and I couldn't tell you anything of import that happened in Wind Waker, despite putting that game through its paces. In MM, Skull Kid is established early on as an opposing force. This is effective, proven institution of a villain. The hero/player is provided a major goal to work towards (along a trail of sub-goals) as well as the force that stands in the way of your success. Skull-Kid and the impending doom that rides along with him are always looming out of scene and in the subconscious, like Darth Vader and the Death Star. At least in the first half of the story; I know Ganondorf makes an appearance, but since I never finished, I don't know how he comes into play. Does he usurp Skull-Kid's role as the main villain? I'm eager to find out. In game preferably, but I know some jackass will spoil it for me.

Too bad console games have fallen so far. There is just good design in MM, and when I say design, I mean how design is supposed to work: the parts woven together purposely and carefully to form the whole. There are technical flaws, but it is not a kit-bashed game of disparate parts. Everything is deliberate. I look at quests in games and think "none of this adds up to anything in the long run. It's padding for better review scores and to impress simplistic audiences who equate quantity with quality" The mini-games are so often diversions from the main structure. In MM, an immediate goal (getting into the observatory) leads you to doing some light detective work (finding out how you can gain access), which leads to a mini-game (hide and seek) which leads to you getting access to the immediate goal, which leads to the next part of your main goal. And you're learning mechanics during all of this. The standard quest-beacon quest design prevalent in so many games today is mostly lazy. Rockstar's Bully is one of the better games in this regard, as the sidequests do a better job of feeding into the main story, but they still feel disconnected. Btw, I think it's the smaller games like Bully, The Warriors, and Manhunt that really speak to R's design chops.

So yeah, that's the first 15-20 minutes of the game, without exploring much of the town or talking to NPCs.

 

[e-mailio estevez]

In the 3DS version a tower fell on top of Ganondorf, hopping out of the wreckage gasping, snarling and rrarrrghing too.

I think this is more than "this version is shittier than this", i think they look and transmit differents feelings. In the original, the sky is full of black clouds like ashes, the ambience is more darker with Ganonorf looking like: i'm not finished yet!. In the 3DS version, the sky is full of red and dark clouds but you can see the lighting of the sky trying to across that blanket. Ganondorf looks like: Now you will see my true power. In my own opinion, both fits well with the game both transmitt diferent feelings.


Resuming the thread, reviews of the """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""specialized"""""""""""""""""""""""" videogames press are coming out. According with they remark, i think the worst thing of this new version is the change of the combat with Odolwa. It's completely different, and in my opinion is worse than the original.

edit:

I could never get Project64 to emulate Majora's Mask perfectly. There was always some clipping issues when objects would 'touch' the camera.

Like, for example, when using the bow in first-person mode, you could see through Link's sleeve. Or in the intro, when Majora's Mask if floating towards the camera, the camera clips through the model once it gets close.

Never could figure out how to fix that. I suck at 3D emulators.

 

[Keldryn]

It's the last and perhaps most visionary game Nintendo has ever made. It carries through on all levels, from structure, to mechanics, theme, plot, visuals. The best Mario games are visionary in terms of mechanics and level design, but not beyond that. Super Metroid is a fuller package than Mario, but not as original or plain bugnuts as MM.

The original Metroid Prime might qualify as well, although it was made by a second-party studio under Nintendo's supervision.

Another thing I noticed is that the story-tellingsay that about. LoZ was never this good in the storytelling category again, or before. Twilight Princess was an undisciplined mess of a plot, and I couldn't tell you anything of import that happened in Wind Waker, despite putting that game through its paces.

Yeah, in most Nintendo games, the story is simply there to justify the gameplay elements. Other than the Fire Emblem games, Nintendo generally seems to stick to minimalistic storytelling.

I have a soft spot for Twilight Princess (probably still my favorite title in the series, and I started with the original NES game in 1988), but I agree that it's plot is something of a mess. The Wind Waker had some great moments, like visiting the sunken kingdom of Hyrule while it is frozen in time, but the overall narrative is on the weak side. Skyward Sword has one of the more interesting stories in a Zelda game, but also the most linear and heavy-handed, and there are some seriously aggravating gameplay elements that drag the whole experience down.

I never got far enough into Majora's Mask to really appreciate the story, and I'm really looking forward to it now, given your praise.

In MM, Skull Kid is established early on as an opposing force. This is effective, proven institution of a villain. The hero/player is provided a major goal to work towards (along a trail of sub-goals) as well as the force that stands in the way of your success. Skull-Kid and the impending doom that rides along with him are always looming out of scene and in the subconscious, like Darth Vader and the Death Star.

Or The Guardian in the final Ultima trilogy, especially in VII.

If you think that you'll be cool and original and surprise players with a "but he wasn't the REAL villaina " twist near the end.... just don't. (See Twilight Princess) It's okay to have a character who was present throughout the game be revealed as the true villain (as long as there were some subtle hints that players will pick up on the second time through), but don't just throw some brand new enemy into the mix.

Too bad console games have fallen so far. There is just good design in MM, and when I say design, I mean how design is supposed to work: the parts woven together purposely and carefully to form the whole. There are technical flaws, but it is not a kit-bashed game of disparate parts. Everything is deliberate.

I think this sort of good design is rare in general. And it's probably more common in more linear, focused games than in open-ended games. There seem to be a handful of such titles of each generation/platform, and it's not always obvious until a few years later.

I look at quests in games and think "none of this adds up to anything in the long run. It's padding for better review scores and to impress simplistic audiences who equate quantity with quality"

*cough* Elder Scrolls *cough*

Rockstar's Bully is one of the better games in this regard, as the sidequests do a better job of feeding into the main story, but they still feel disconnected. Btw, I think it's the smaller games like Bully, The Warriors, and Manhunt that really speak to R's design chops.

I agree with you there, and not just because I worked with most of the guys who made Bully (and a few from The Warriors). There were some really talented designers there. I was told on several occasions about how they tried to not have anything feel tacked-on and then one of the Housers decided 3 months before the game was done that the game MUST include a skateboard. They had a reputation for doing that sort of thing.

 

[Luckra]

The original Metroid Prime might qualify as well, although it was made by a second-party studio under Nintendo's supervision.

Wasn't Retro Studios already a first party Nintendo studio when they made the first Metroid Prime? Early 00s, I doubt Nintendo would have given them Metroid if it wasn't the case.

Another thing I noticed is that the story-tellingsay that about. LoZ was never this good in the storytelling category again, or before. Twilight Princess was an undisciplined mess of a plot, and I couldn't tell you anything of import that happened in Wind Waker, despite putting that game through its paces.

Yeah, in most Nintendo games, the story is simply there to justify the gameplay elements. Other than the Fire Emblem games, Nintendo generally seems to stick to minimalistic storytelling.

Agreed, I'd say Intelligent Systems (Fire Emblem, Paper Mario) and Monolith Soft (Xenoblade) are the only two Nintendo studios really trying to elaborate on the story side in games.
Nothing wrong with the more simplistic stories though, I always found the Zelda games to tell enough to keep things interesting (Skyward Sword might be the only one who tried really too hard).

 

[Machocruz]

The original Metroid Prime might qualify as well, although it was made by a second-party studio under Nintendo's supervision.

That's why I did not consider it. I give Retro all the credit for that. It was the console game of its generation, for me.

Or The Guardian in the final Ultima trilogy, especially in VII.

There are a lot in games, literature, film. I'm just drawing a blank on which ones did it. Oh, Apocalypse Now is probably the biggest example outside of SW, although you don't see Kurtz in the flesh until late in the film. He's a spectre casting a shadow over the entire thing (can spectres cast shadows?). Far Cry 2 tried to do it with the Jackal, but the effect was diluted by the size and sprawling nature of the game.

I think this sort of good design is rare in general. And it's probably more common in more linear, focused games than in open-ended games. There seem to be a handful of such titles of each generation/platform, and it's not always obvious until a few years later.

Speaking of Ultima 7, it's an open world game that didn't feel fatty to me. Since it's about the story of Britannia and a quest to find answers in a murder plot, exploring the local color through quests and social interaction is in keeping with the big picture. It's not a 'quest beacon' game like GTA, AC2, Skyblivion. PC games used to handle large world design with much more clarity. The games influenced by Ultima Underworld also attest to this.

But I don't think tight knit design was that rare for console games from competent developers, pre 7th generation. I started noticing the lack of it the more after that.

I agree with you there, and not just because I worked with most of the guys who made Bully (and a few from The Warriors). There were some really talented designers there. I was told on several occasions about how they tried to not have anything feel tacked-on and then one of the Housers decided 3 months before the game was done that the game MUST include a skateboard. They had a reputation for doing that sort of thing.

And they made the correct call. Teenage punks and skateboards go together, as well as serve as a thematically consistent means of travel. A lesser dev would give you a dune buggy or Apache helicopter.

 

[Keldryn]

That's why I did not consider it. I give Retro all the credit for that. It was the console game of its generation, for me.

I wasn't sure if "Nintendo" included its second-party studios or not (as Miyamoto and other bigwigs at Nintendo do oversee their output). I'd rank Eternal Darkness up there as well in terms of a game where all of its elements contributed towards realizing a strong vision.

Speaking of Ultima 7, it's an open world game that didn't feel fatty to me. Since it's about the story of Britannia and a quest to find answers in a murder plot, exploring the local color through quests and social interaction is in keeping with the big picture.

It also fit the overall themes of Ultima VII. The old virtues were fading from importance, with the Fellowship gaining popularity as being more representative of the common man, with more achievable aspirations. The Guardian was able to gain influence and potentially invade the land because they had lost that connection to the old ways: Lord British was seen to have lost touch with the common folk, the Avatar had been gone for 200 years, etc. It was made explicit the first time you visit Lord British in the game, as he talks about this situation and implores you to reconnect with the people, to work alongside them, and such. Richard Garriot once stated that "The central subtext of the story to Ultima VII is that, when the fabric of society becomes weak, it's very easy to have evil inflict itself on you" The Guardian was just a plot hook to get you moving.

But I don't think tight knit design was that rare for console games from competent developers, pre 7th generation. I started noticing the lack of it the more after that.

That's not surprising, given the massive leap in game budgets from the 6th to the 7th generation. I've seen figures showing the average development budget for a 6th generation game to be in the $3-5 million range, with a handful of $10+ million outliers. Those costs exploded to an average of $25 million for a major title on the Xbox 360 or PS3 (with budgets for the Wii in the $5-10 million range), with a fair number of titles hitting $50 million, and even a handful exceeding $100 million. So you have huge teams working on a game, and when the development cycles not infrequently push into the 3-4 year territory, you start to see a lot more attrition on the game team. It makes it very difficult to maintain a consistent vision with under those conditions.

I haven't played enough recent PC games to notice if there is a similar trend there.

And they made the correct call. Teenage punks and skateboards go together, as well as serve as a thematically consistent means of travel. A lesser dev would give you a dune buggy or Apache helicopter.

Or a jet pack.

The skateboard is appropriate, but adding it to the game when you're getting into the home stretch is a questionable call. I'm sure that they must have considered it earlier in the process and had reasons for not putting it into the game.

On the other hand, I hope we never see a skateboard punk version of Link. It was bad enough having trains in Spirit Tracks. Does that count as going back on-topic?

 

[Rivmusique]

They also changed the deku skip. Why do you hate MM water gameplay, 3ds version devs?

 

[Keldryn]

Picked it up this morning so that I could play it on my 45-minute train ride in to work.

I know that the game itself is highly regarded, and I have played a few hours of it on the Zelda Collectors' Edition disc for the Gamecube, but in all honesty the first hour or so of the game makes a very poor first impression. You can't do that much when you're stuck in the deku scrub form, you have to search the town for the fragmented fairy, then you have to search the town for those five kids (and if you happen to get this "quest" at night, you'll probably have to do it over again unless you know exactly where the kids are hiding), and after all that, you have to wait until the end of the third day to finally get to play as "human" Link.

Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword both fell into this trap of making the first hour or so of the game more tedious than fun. A Link Between Worlds did it right, getting you out exploring and fighting within a couple of minutes.

 

[Irenaeus]

Zelda 2 have you fighting and getting XP as soon as you leave the castle you start in.

First 30 seconds of the game:

 

[DragoFireheart]

Zelda 2 have you fighting and getting XP as soon as you leave the castle you start in.

First 30 seconds of the game:

Better than even Dark Souls since that game bogs you down with intro and character creation.

 

[AN4RCHID]

They also changed the deku skip. Why do you hate MM water gameplay, 3ds version devs?

Looks like pure

I knew they would fuck this up. Even the art somehow looks uglier than the 64 version.

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

I knew they would fuck this up. Even the art somehow looks uglier than the 64 version.

lol no

Now the Southern swamp looks like a true swamp.

 

[AN4RCHID]

Yeah, no. A few sharper textures notwithstanding, compare the colour palette and all around tone of the two versions:

N64: dark, subdued, menacing, gloomy. 3DS: all the colours turned up to 11, everything lit up like a fucking stage, bloom, and no atmosphere. See also: the clock UI is objectively shit in the new version.

Modern Nintendo cannot into art direction. First Wind Waker HD, and now this.

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

Yeah, no. A few sharper textures notwithstanding, compare the colour palette and all around tone of the two versions

N64: dark, subdued, menacing, gloomy. 3DS: all the colours turned up to 11, everything lit up like a fucking stage, and no atmosphere. See also: the clock UI is objectively shit in the new version.

Modern Nintendo cannot into art direction. First Wind Waker HD, and now this.

I'm starting to think that some persons when the people says "MM is dark" thinks that the game is literally dark with no lighting or stuff like that.

The atmosphere is mainly caused by the storyline and the sidequests of the game, bathed in the same dark and melancolic theme. Also, the new colour palette still transmitting the same spooky, melancolic and strange ambience as the original game, and is way better than the original, because is more faithful with the originals artworks of the game thanks of the contradistinction between high contrasted colors and shadows:

But nevermind. I knew that this would happen. The nostalgic and irrational defending of the old look of the game was very foreseeable, cause of the same subject with OOT 3D.

And about the clock... "Objectively" shit... hahahahaaha

 

[Tehdagah]

Are grey and brown graphics supposed to be a good thing now?

 

[AN4RCHID]

Also, the new colour palette still transmitting the same spooky, melancolic and strange ambience as the original game, and is way better than the original, because is more faithful with the originals artworks of the game thanks of the contradistinction between high contrasted colors and shadows:

Yes, the primary colours look nice in animu sketches where they can be contrasted with sharp lines and pitch black shadows. Unfortunately, that effect is somewhat lost on 3D models with overbearing ambient lighting and terrible bloom effects.

But nevermind. I knew that this would happen. The nostalgic and irrational defending of the old look of the game was very foreseeable, cause of the same subject with OOT 3D.

Yep all nostalgia. Nothing wrong with modern Nintendo art direction.

Spoiler

Yes sir, they sure know what they're doing.

 

[Caim]

Yep all nostalgia. Nothing wrong with modern Nintendo art direction.

Spoiler

Yes sir, they sure know what they're doing.

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

Spoiler

Yes sir, they sure know what they're doing.

Ingame Wind Waker HD is not so Oblivionish as in that image



And yes, they sure know what they're doing:

(It's supposedly a nightfall)

 

[AN4RCHID]

That's a sunrise on the right you liar.

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

That's a sunrise on the right you liar.

Nope



Min 10:52

 

[AN4RCHID]

original still looks better.

 

[Avellion]

Seems to be a general theme of games being remade or ported over and their art takes a hit

Wizardry 7->Gold (The most offensive of the bunch)
Jagged Alliance 2->Jagged Alliance Back in Action (Second most offensive of the bunch)
WoW Vanilla Models->WoW: Warlords of Draenor Models
Pokemon Red&Blue->FireRed&LeafGreen
Pokemon Gold&Silver->HeartGold/SoulSilver
Realms of Arcania->Remake
Wind Waker->Wind Waker HD
Binding of Isaac->Binding of Isaac Rebirth

And now,

Majoras Mask->Majora's Mask 3D

Oh well, at least it is not the movie scene.