The Morrowind that never was.

[Alex]

I was playing morrowind again recently, and I was reminded of the time I used to hang on the Bethesda forums, eagerly awaiting the sequel to Daggerfall. In fact, the very first site I tried to visit when I finally gained access to the Internet was Bethesda's.

Being so much of a fan of Daggerfall, though, I was most displeased with the game they ended up making. I was really looking forward a more "rogue-like" game, with tons of character building options and full of systems I could play with. I do realize now that Morrowind has a few very good strengths, though it also has a few deep, ugly flaws.

Regardless, I got curious about what were the plans for Morrowind before Ken Rolston came on board. I understand that Daggerfall was, mainly, Ted Peterson's and Julian LeFay's baby. They left, I also understand, way before the team that did build morrowind was completely formed. But I also understand that they did have plans for Morrowind, maybe even some working code.

So, what I wanted to know is if anyone has any information in this Morrowind that never was. What were the plans that they did have for it? Maybe a lost design document? I am also interested in why Bethesda ended up the way it did and why the old team ended up disbanding. Does anyone know anything about this?

 

[Phelot]

Here's an interview with Ted Peterson. TBH, I didn't read it all so I have no idea if he really gets into full details on Morrowind. Alex, you should seek him out and email him some questions. He sounds like a good guy.
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/interviews-ted-peterson

Can't find much on Julian LeFay. The man seems to have dropped off the face of the Earth.

 

[ksjav]

http://www.imperial-library.info/conten ... t-official Pretty much all you need to see.

Can't find much on Julian LeFay. The man seems to have dropped off the face of the Earth.

AFAIK LeFay does not work in the industry anymore, but he posted on DaggerXL blog not awhile ago, specifically I think he mentioned that the ES pantheon is named after buggerfall testers in a discussion over there.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Being so much of a fan of Daggerfall, though, I was most displeased with the game they ended up making. I was really looking forward a more "rogue-like" game, with tons of character building options and full of systems I could play with. I do realize now that Morrowind has a few very good strengths, though it also has a few deep, ugly flaws.

Hmph. I don't know if I understand you correctly. But I haven't yet played Daggerfall yet. But can you explain this please?

"with tons of character building options"

My complaint with TES 3 and 4 is that there is no real class system.

 

[Topher]

You make it sound as if "no real class system" equals "no character building options" and the two aren't really related in my mind.

 

[Captain Shrek]

You make it sound as if "no real class system" equals "no character building options" and the two aren't really related in my mind.

Well... In Morrowind and Oblivion I was a Tinker tailor soldier spy.

 

[deus101]

That they dropped class limitations is my biggest gripe, but other then that i think they did a good job.


But yes you have to wonder though...i mean...the only reason remove class limitation was to make it easier...what would happen if the designers actually wanted to flesh out the gameplay?

 

[Topher]

...what would happen if the designers actually wanted to flesh out the gameplay?

I don't think they understand the concept.

 

[Xi]

Ted Peterson:
Julian hung around Bethesda for a few more years than I did. He did Battlespire with then-newly-hired designer Ken Rolston, and then went off to work at a couple different game companies before leaving the business.

Ken Rolston was a lead designer from the beginning of MW i think. Sorry to kill your idea, but I don't think Ted Peterson really cared much for video gaming. /shrug

Pretty sure Julian was no different. Just two people who did a good job and moved on.

Julian Jensen currently leads research and development efforts at MTL where he helps plan technical strategy and create the code behind a number of the Company’s ongoing projects.
Julian hails from Denmark. While best known for games programming starting at an early age, in the 1980's he was widely recognized as one of Europe’s best Amstrad and Amiga programmers. His reputation and expertise eventually lead to him being courted by American games companies and his emigration to the United States. Julian worked for a small games company in Annapolis Maryland and joined Bethesda Softworks in 1988 as a Programmer, eventually becoming Bethesda’s Chief Engineer in charge of all software development. During this time, he created a large number of computer games, most notably the internationally acclaimed Elder Scrolls role-playing series.
Julian’s expertise spans a wide range of areas from applied statistics; natural language processing; digital signal processing and database management. He is a certified project manager (PMP) and most recently was a programmer and statistician at the United States Patent and Trademark Office, where he helped oversee their database programming.
For relaxation, Julian is coding the first deep syntax Greek parser.

 

[Malakal]

You make it sound as if "no real class system" equals "no character building options" and the two aren't really related in my mind.

Yes, there is a class system, you always play a mage-warrior-rogue-priest. But it gets boring doesnt it?

 

[Topher]

You make it sound as if "no real class system" equals "no character building options" and the two aren't really related in my mind.

Yes, there is a class system, you always play a mage-warrior-rogue-priest. But it gets boring doesnt it?

Gotta larp that shit. I just don't see any other way to play after your first character.

 

[Alex]

Being so much of a fan of Daggerfall, though, I was most displeased with the game they ended up making. I was really looking forward a more "rogue-like" game, with tons of character building options and full of systems I could play with. I do realize now that Morrowind has a few very good strengths, though it also has a few deep, ugly flaws.

Hmph. I don't know if I understand you correctly. But I haven't yet played Daggerfall yet. But can you explain this please?

"with tons of character building options"

My complaint with TES 3 and 4 is that there is no real class system.

Sure. Daggerfall had in it a class creation system. Besides selecting which skills were important for your character, you also selected a bunch of special abilities and restrictions, such as being unable to use magic in darkness, being immune to diseases, being better able to fight certain creatures, etc. It also It also allowed you to edit how certain groups (commoners, nobles, merchants, underworld and scholars) reacted to your character. So, what I was hoping for some expansion on this, on those days. Nowadays, I changed my mind, as I think that that the best idea would be to put these abilities as part of the advancement in the guilds.

Character advancement through the guilds, by the way, is another aspect I was hoping would be improved. I hoped to see many different guilds, each with different sets of abilities they would make available to your character. I was hoping they would make the guilds more dissimilar, with each having a few exclusive services, and more unique, with the politics preventing anyone from rising in many of them at the same time.

 

[The Gentleman Loser]

I don't know... I don't always like class systems myself. They always seem weird and fake.

It's like saying a doctor could never learn how to fix his own sink, because only plumbers can do that.

The best way I have seen it done is D&D games where there is multi-classing. You can learn anything you want within reason, but you have to sacrifice how much you can learn in any one thing by being a Jack-of-Trades.

Arcanum also did this pretty well with it's Tech vs. Magic system. You could dabble in either, but you limited how well you could do in both by doing that.

The newer TES games have no real restrictions at all in the game mechanics. The attribute system has a slight limitation because of the level cap, but the skill based side of the system would let you max the skills in the end.

On the other hand true class-based games make you decide on what your character will aspire to before even starting the game. You decide from "birth" to be a Mage, Warrior, Rogue, etc. You can never change your mind, or change your interests over time. This is alleviated some by talent-tree systems and specializations... but not by much. This system front-loads character development, with very little choices later on.

I guess I just prefer trade-offs over restrictive class rules, and don't like when there is no trade off at all.

Not sure what to call that... I guess it's good to need a character building strategy, instead of fully free form or fully restricted. Kind of like getting just enough rope to hang yourself, but also having enough freedom to do what you like.

(I realize you can do self-restrictions and what not... but I'm just talking about pre-programmed stuff here. You can imagine almost anything in any game.)

 

[Captain Shrek]

Character advancement through the guilds, by the way, is another aspect I was hoping would be improved. I hoped to see many different guilds, each with different sets of abilities they would make available to your character. I was hoping they would make the guilds more dissimilar, with each having a few exclusive services, and more unique, with the politics preventing anyone from rising in many of them at the same time.

The problem with guild based classes is that forces you to play the game according to the Guild's agenda.

Better option would be, to prevent effective skill levels of a cross-class like skill from increasing beyond a certain point. Tie it to your attributes that are unchanging or change very slowly ONLY through story elements. This will simulate both class and RP freedom.

 

[Alex]

@Xi

I don't know exactly when, but Morrowind changed a lot in scope. I don't know if it was only after Ken joined, but it did end up a different game than the one originally planned. The game centered in Map of Vvardenfell instead of the whole of Morrowind, and was more static than originally planned in at least one way. I imagine there are other changes besides these ones, and I am interested in them.

By the way, thanks for the info on Julian. Do you know what MTL stands for?

@Phelot

Thanks. I will ask them.Hopefully it will go better than my attempts to contact Stephen Barcia.

@The Gentleman Loser

I think static classes only work well when the game uses them to make itself very different based on them. In TES series, they acted more like starting points instead of reals classes.

 

[Alex]

The problem with guild based classes is that forces you to play the game according to the Guild's agenda.

Well, there are ways of mitigating this, like having guilds with a lot of infighting, having splinter groups (preferably with different abilities), and a lot of other things.

Still, you are right that doing a game like this won't please everyone, as it binds your abilities to your story role. However, I would like to play more games like this, even if I don't think this should be a "default" design choice in RPGs. I like the idea of having my character advancement be constricted by in game reasons.

 

[Mastermind]

I don't know... I don't always like class systems myself. They always seem weird and fake.

It's like saying a doctor could never learn how to fix his own sink, because only plumbers can do that.

You don't need limits to which skills you can learn to have a class system. I think a system like TES where everybody can learn every skill but with additional abilities and bonuses based on class would be perfect.

The newer TES games have no real restrictions at all in the game mechanics. The attribute system has a slight limitation because of the level cap, but the skill based side of the system would let you max the skills in the end.

The attribute system has no limitations if you get 2 x5s and raise luck every level.

 

[mondblut]

Julian’s expertise spans a wide range of areas from applied statistics; natural language processing; digital signal processing and database management.

For relaxation, Julian is coding the first deep syntax Greek parser.

Why do people like him abandon us to the mercy of fat blobs aspiring to write fantasy porn?

 

[Deakul]

Morrowind was god tier aside from the combat system.

 

[Xi]

Why do people like him abandon us to the mercy of fat blobs aspiring to write fantasy porn?

Probably because he wanted to make more money.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Julian’s expertise spans a wide range of areas from applied statistics; natural language processing; digital signal processing and database management.

For relaxation, Julian is coding the first deep syntax Greek parser.

Why do people like him abandon us to the mercy of fat blobs aspiring to write fantasy porn?

Because in other areas available to him, his career success is measured by his ability to make the best product he possibly can, rather than the one that is just crappy enough to appeal to as many people as possible? Because accessibility in those software means finding ways to make as many options and as much complexity to be communicated and usable to the average (or even sub-average) consumer, rather than cutting out options until it becomes accessible by default?

The last point really bugs me these days, mainly because I keep harping on how Deus Ex did so much with a much simpler system/mechanics than FO3. It's more a criticism of Bioware than Bethesda, these days, though (I'd have never said that even just 3 years ago). Despite their stated motivations, their games aren't particularly accessible for what they are. They're usable by a wide audience because they cut all the options out - not because they make the options easier to understand.

 

[deus101]

By the way.....any good links to the drama that ensued after the Oblivion review?

 

[The Gentleman Loser]

I don't know... I don't always like class systems myself. They always seem weird and fake.

It's like saying a doctor could never learn how to fix his own sink, because only plumbers can do that.

You don't need limits to which skills you can learn to have a class system. I think a system like TES where everybody can learn every skill but with additional abilities and bonuses based on class would be perfect.

Yeah, I should have phrased that as "I don't like class systems as they are most often done..."

I can tell we are on the same page here, pretty much.

For the "no attribute restriction thing", I suspected you could make them all max, but I didn't want to say for sure since I never have done it.

 

[Phelot]

Julian Jensen currently leads research and development efforts at MTL where he helps plan technical strategy and create the code behind a number of the Company’s ongoing projects.
Julian hails from Denmark. While best known for games programming starting at an early age, in the 1980's he was widely recognized as one of Europe’s best Amstrad and Amiga programmers. His reputation and expertise eventually lead to him being courted by American games companies and his emigration to the United States. Julian worked for a small games company in Annapolis Maryland and joined Bethesda Softworks in 1988 as a Programmer, eventually becoming Bethesda’s Chief Engineer in charge of all software development. During this time, he created a large number of computer games, most notably the internationally acclaimed Elder Scrolls role-playing series.
Julian’s expertise spans a wide range of areas from applied statistics; natural language processing; digital signal processing and database management. He is a certified project manager (PMP) and most recently was a programmer and statistician at the United States Patent and Trademark Office, where he helped oversee their database programming.
For relaxation, Julian is coding the first deep syntax Greek parser.

What's strange about this is his name is spelled completely different. Is it Jensen or is it LeFey?

In any case, he certainly hasn't looked back at gaming, I guess. It's a shame that some of these brilliant guys don't stick around, but I suppose you get burned out. It's not like someone like him would be able to make much of a difference...

Reminds me of Greg Kirkpatrick, writer for the Marathon series. He simply left after the third game and never worked on a video game since.

 

[Xi]

Some people think of gaming as a child's hobby too. Society often labels and stigmatizes people, and this can have an affect when making career decisions. "Do I want to be an old man designing video games?" To all of us it may seem like a no brainer "hell yeah!" But, to a professional, given their social identity, family, culture, and goals it may seem, like I said, childish.

I wonder what the ratio of old developers is compared to younger, new developers? Seems like video game design is an entry level platform for people to springboard away from after gaining essential industry experience. It starts one's career.

If you read the Ted Peterson interview, it seems pretty clear that the guy is more of an apple user who likes good stories and only ever dabbled in games. The guy was just good at creating interesting lore and stories.

Lefay was a competent programmer who enjoyed his early career for a few years and then left to more meaningful tasks.

"Hi, I'm Julian Lefay, lead research developer for MTLs software division."

"Hi, I'm Julian Lefay, lead programmer for Bethsoft, inc, video game developer."

Pride is a personal thing. We can't expect to understand such things about him but to acknowledge that a person with ambition would probably keep moving if it wasn't their ultimate goal.


Edit:

Something of interest. It appears that Julian has contacted Lucius about his DaggerXL project.(which is coming along nicely!) Read more here:

http://daggerxl.50.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=614