The most complex RPG to date?

[OsirisGod]

Well on a plus for me its a single player no party ( i love that hence why i adore fallout 1) , and has the only strategic realtime combat i have experienced to date , on the meele side that is.

Edit: I would try Ultima but i do like graphics to be on the medium range sort of , and since i done a lot of 3d max as a hobby for the last 6 years i can't really get myself to play old games .

 

[Moradil]

Daggerfall and Darklands.

 

[Ivy Mike]

Complex in what capacity?

For combat, ToEE. The ammount of valid combat options in ToEE makes it one of the better dungeon crawlers out there.

For complexity as in party/inventory/stat management, the RoA series or Darklands excluding all the ASCII-based dungeon crawlers out there since I've never had the inclination to play those. What I like about RoA is that it manages to combine several different sub-games into one and still make it fun. While travel is usually unimportant or downright boring (Morrowind) RoA makes travel a whole separate game where each day that passes becomes a challenge in itself. Also the character management and sheer ammount of spells available outweigh most other cRPGs.

 

[Barbader]

Sir-Tech wins.

 

[Disconnected]

Dwarf Fortress isn't complicated, it maybe is the most advanced thing out there, but gameplaywise adventure mode is not complicated in any way.

complex not means complicate

Of course not, that's why those words aren't synonyms.

Joking aside, in a discussion like this, "complex" has to refer to the player's experience of and interaction with the game, to retain any meaning. NWN & ToEE use the same rules.
NWN is quite possibly the least complicated game experience I've ever had (as a single player game, mind). Worse than DS2 by far (at least DS2 didn't automatically defeat every enemy, ram every sidequest down my throat with a pile driver & build my characters for me). As a single player game, NWN is one very tiny step above Progress Quest in complexity.

ToEE on the other hand, was a thoroughly engaging experience (and a hell of a lot of fun). Considering the rules are pretty much exactly the same, that sounds a bit absurd. But the difference isn't how complex the game itself is, but rather the interaction between player and game. In this case, the difference is simply that where NWN played itself, ToEE let me play it.

Anyway... though I think ToEE is a good candidate, the only thing is has going for it is the combat system. Fallout wins, I think. Not because of its amazingly great combat (because it really isn't), and not because using SPECIAL involves spending hour upon hour pouring over spreadsheets (fortunately it doesn't, unlike Sir-Tec games). Not even because of its amazing dialogue (that, again, isn't the least bit amazing). But because it at least appears to give the player real, meaningful choices in a gameworld that reflects those choices.

"Feint or Trip?" isn't nearly as engaging & complex a player choice, as trying to decide "Should I cheat that guy? If I do and he gets pist, can I take him? And what kind of long term impact will either decision have on me?"

 

[Volourn]

"at least DS2 didn't automatically defeat every enemy, ram every sidequest down my throat with a pile driver & build my characters for me)."

Flat out lies. Youa ctually have to do thinsg to win many NWN combats. Just standing there will get you killed. Period.

You can easily miss side quests. There are quite a lot you could miss.

Only if you let it will it buidl your character; but the auto character generation won't likely be as good a sone you self built.

Dumbass.

 

[Xor]

Wasn't there like...2 side-quests per chapter in the NWN OC?

 

[Lesifoere]

If you play a fighter type with Great Cleave, you can indeed just click once and watch your character automatically slaughter a group of enemies.

 

[Volourn]

"If you play a fighter type with Great Cleave, you can indeed just click once and watch your character automatically slaughter a group of enemies."

Same with TOEE. It's called Great Cleave for a reason.



"Wasn't there like...2 side-quests per chapter in the NWN OC?"

Only if you are blind, and stupid.

 

[Redeye]

That's the old RPG-7, the RPG-29 is much better.

Moar!

 

[Trash]

Another serious post:

Darklands, Ultima 7 or Star Trail.

 

[Disconnected]

Flat out lies. Youa ctually have to do thinsg to win many NWN combats. Just standing there will get you killed. Period.

In general, you do not have to do anything in NWN combat if you play something other than a Wizard or Sorcerer. There's some exceptions of course, but those are just that; exceptions. The vast majority of the combat plays itself just fine without your interference.

You can easily miss side quests. There are quite a lot you could miss.

Assuming you read the game dialogue, I don't really see how. Of course the GUI is a scaling nightmare, so I can certainly understand if you just click through it without staring yourself blind trying to read it. Especially if you didn't explore the advanced graphical options to find the "smooth font".

Only if you let it will it buidl your character; but the auto character generation won't likely be as good a sone you self built.

While that's absolutely true, it doesn't mean auto-generated characters aren't (again, generally speaking) good enough to play most of the game without you interfering. It just means the automatic character generation isn't very good.

Don't get me wrong, I love NWN to bits as a multiplayer game. But it isn't a terribly complex experience & the OC is so fucking broken that it's more insulting than unintentionally funny.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Wasn't there like...2 side-quests per chapter in the NWN OC?

Not at all. There were many, on the contrary.

 

[Jasede]

NWN OC has a ton of quests. A ton.

 

[SimpleComplexity]

But NWN2 OC is better.

 

[Volourn]

No.

 

[Riso]

Yes it is, now go back into the fucking kitchen, princess.

 

[Redeye]

Progress Quest

Levels of Glory!

 

[Volourn]

"now go back into the fucking kitchen, princess."

Princesses don't cook, dumbass. NOW, OFF WITH YOUR HEAD, PEASANT. And, your 2 points of IQ that is all you have left.

 

[Disconnected]

But NWN2 OC is better.

Higher quality, certainly, but I disagree it is better.

In my not so humble opinion, the NWN OC was a waste of time. I played through it, but I doubt any force on Earth could convince me to waste that many hours on something that boring again. But that's all it was; boring.

NWN2's OC, on the other hand, isn't boring. Where NWN's OC played itself & dialogue was just a meaningless nuisance to be turbo-clicked through, dialogue in NWN2 engages the player & while the combat is still dull as fuck, there's a bit of party management to be done. Mostly because the AI is criminally retarded, but hey, at least the player has to do something.

The reason I think NWN2's OC is worse, is that it really fucking annoys me. Unlike the characterless NWN OC, NWN2's has plenty of character. Alas, that character can be summarised as "contemporary US middle class culture", which not only doesn't belong in a game that supposedly takes place in fictional sort-of-European Middle Ages world w. vast doses of Tolkien, it also happens to clash about as badly as possible with my sensibilities.

So where the NWN OC is just primitive & dull, the NWN2 OC makes me want to kick my Dr. Marten's so far up a certain Dev team's asses they'll choke on the laces - something they almost certainly don't deserve, but man.. I don't think I've ever tried another game that actually made me feel like I was being deliberately & personally insulted, and that's precisely how the NWN2 OC makes me feel.

It is of course a compliment of sorts that the game manages to genuinely piss me off, because it means it reached me. Now if only it had entertained me instead of infuriating me...

 

[Jaesun]

What specifically infuriated you about the NWN2 OC Disconnected?

 

[1eyedking]

Icewind Dale II's Heart of Fury mode.

 

[spiwak]

No.

Are you paid by Bioware or what?

 

[Gold]

The rogue-likes are without a doubt very complex. Darklands gets a vote too. That damn bronze age finish survival game is pretty complex too. (You guys know the name). ToEE isn't that complex if you know the DnD 3.x system.