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Preview The Outer Worlds 2 at IGN First: The First Preview

Saint_Proverbius

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I don't even know what the plot of fallout 4 is because i'm not a woman so I had no interest in finding some random baby. not sure what could be worse than a baby when you're trying to be an apocalyptic mercenary. i hope that baby died.
Which is part of the problem with Fallout 4's plot. Right out of the gate, they shoehorn you in to the role of being a parent with a new born. They went even further by establishing the background for both the male and female character, which has no tie in with the game beyond, "This is Dick and Nora's background!" It gets even more stupid at the cryo vault when they shoot your spouse once you realize what the plot is. In fact, it's stupid they didn't take EVERYONE from that vault given the plot. It's not like the Enclave in Fallout 2 didn't take everyone from Vault 13 and everyone from Arroyo.

But then I guess the game couldn't happen the way they wanted it to happen.

for what it's worth i think Fallout 4 is a much better game than The Outer Worlds. it's actually the reason i played Fallout 4 to begin with, I wanted to see how TOW compared.
The one thing Fallout 4 does better than TOW that I don't think anyone can question is provide you with an open world fairly quickly, which TOW doesn't really do.

Nah, I thoroughly enjoyed my experience on 3 way more than I did with 4. Washington was a great place to explore in.
Fallout 3 was much better than Fallout 4, but it wasn't good compared to other games. That Wasteland Survival Guide thing was completely ass. There's also the problem of things that shouldn't exist so close to one another or things that shouldn't exist that many years after the Great War like Little Lamplight. Tenpenny Tower is pretty retarded. Megaton is pretty retarded.
 

Salem

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I don't even know what the plot of fallout 4 is because i'm not a woman so I had no interest in finding some random baby. not sure what could be worse than a baby when you're trying to be an apocalyptic mercenary. i hope that baby died.
Which is part of the problem with Fallout 4's plot. Right out of the gate, they shoehorn you in to the role of being a parent with a new born. They went even further by establishing the background for both the male and female character, which has no tie in with the game beyond, "This is Dick and Nora's background!" It gets even more stupid at the cryo vault when they shoot your spouse once you realize what the plot is. In fact, it's stupid they didn't take EVERYONE from that vault given the plot. It's not like the Enclave in Fallout 2 didn't take everyone from Vault 13 and everyone from Arroyo.

But then I guess the game couldn't happen the way they wanted it to happen.

for what it's worth i think Fallout 4 is a much better game than The Outer Worlds. it's actually the reason i played Fallout 4 to begin with, I wanted to see how TOW compared.
The one thing Fallout 4 does better than TOW that I don't think anyone can question is provide you with an open world fairly quickly, which TOW doesn't really do.

Nah, I thoroughly enjoyed my experience on 3 way more than I did with 4. Washington was a great place to explore in.
Fallout 3 was much better than Fallout 4, but it wasn't good compared to other games. That Wasteland Survival Guide thing was completely ass. There's also the problem of things that shouldn't exist so close to one another or things that shouldn't exist that many years after the Great War like Little Lamplight. Tenpenny Tower is pretty retarded. Megaton is pretty retarded.

Yeah, Lamplight was weak with that bizarre comedic touch of that alt nuclear family happy spirit they were trying to channel, but I can't fault them for sticking to their own sense of balance, given this was their first go. Overall, they did a good job getting that 'Fallout' feeling bang on to respect the mantle of the prior titles and make it stand on its own feet. They did succeed here.

I just felt Boston failed for me because the building mechanics and the synth plot line were poor and lacking. Wasn't for me.
 

AwesomeButton

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As I've said previously, regarding Avowid, "I'm not buying this game, Infinitron!"
 

damager

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Yeah, Lamplight was weak with that bizarre comedic touch of that alt nuclear family happy spirit they were trying to channel, but I can't fault them for sticking to their own sense of balance, given this was their first go. Overall, they did a good job getting that 'Fallout' feeling bang on to respect the mantle of the prior titles and make it stand on its own feet. They did succeed here.

I just felt Boston failed for me because the building mechanics and the synth plot line were poor and lacking. Wasn't for me.

Ladies and Gentlemen we have a new Bethestard
 

Salem

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Yeah, Lamplight was weak with that bizarre comedic touch of that alt nuclear family happy spirit they were trying to channel, but I can't fault them for sticking to their own sense of balance, given this was their first go. Overall, they did a good job getting that 'Fallout' feeling bang on to respect the mantle of the prior titles and make it stand on its own feet. They did succeed here.

I just felt Boston failed for me because the building mechanics and the synth plot line were poor and lacking. Wasn't for me.

Ladies and Gentlemen we have a new Bethestard

I did enjoy Fallout 3 a lot but New Vegas is still the king :P
 
Unwanted

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Yeah, Lamplight was weak with that bizarre comedic touch of that alt nuclear family happy spirit they were trying to channel, but I can't fault them for sticking to their own sense of balance, given this was their first go. Overall, they did a good job getting that 'Fallout' feeling bang on to respect the mantle of the prior titles and make it stand on its own feet. They did succeed here.

I just felt Boston failed for me because the building mechanics and the synth plot line were poor and lacking. Wasn't for me.

Ladies and Gentlemen we have a new Bethestard

I did enjoy Fallout 3 a lot but New Vegas is still the king :P
Niggas be hating on Bethesda as the peddler of decline, and that's justified. However, the decline continued whilst Bethesda remained at a consistent level. It's like a drop followed by a straight line, whilst the likes of O*sidian and B*oWare just continued fucking dropping. Endlessly. It's like, I hate Skyrim, but it's somewhat okayish to play in terms of fun. Fallout 4, despite butchering what little vestiges of RPG was left after Fallout 3, is still, somewhat fun to play (so long as you stay the fuck away from any and all quests).

You still get the sense that there's at least one, or perhaps a handful of passionate, dumb fucks who actually believe in their work over at Bethesda. The level designer. Some of the modelers. I don't know, the guy who came up with Survival difficulty for F4. I don't enjoy settlement building, because of many reasons, but at least that system even though it doesn't really work is an addition to the fucking game. When was the last time O*sidian or B*oWare added something to their games that was worth a mention?

Yes. Bethesda is horrible, but everyone else is worse. I do believe that a certain someone is owed an apology.
I'm sorry TemplarGR. You were right all along.
 

damager

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TBH I don't see it. I think there's a pretty significant drop from Skyrim to Fallout 4 and than Fallout 76

Trannyage: Transition is also not much difference in terms of decline than f76 I would say. Just more woke maybe.

Oh and lets not forget Starfield that's even hated by total reddit Bethestards so it must be in fact horrible.
 
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Roguey

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Yes. Bethesda is horrible, but everyone else is worse.
Shattered Space has mostly negative reviews on Steam, they're done. Growing so much so quickly destroyed their culture. Veilguard is mixed from the people who bought it. Obsidian rates consistently positive with the people who play their games.
 
Unwanted

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Obsidian rates consistently positive with the people who play their games.
"Obsidian rates consistently positive with the brain rotted retards that continue to play their games, clearly Obsidian is better than Bethesda"
No.
TBH I don't see it. I think there's a pretty significant drop from Skyrim to Fallout 4 and than Fallout 76
I disagree completely. The biggest drop was from Morrowind to Oblivion, with still a not inconsiderable drop between Oblivion and Skyrim. Skyrim and F4 are about on par as far as I'm concerned. Haven't played 76 or Starfield, so can't really speak of 'em.
Oh and lets not forget Starfield that's even hated by total reddit Bethestards so it must be in fact horrible.
Harsh criticism can snap Todd back into mediocrity. No such criticism exists for Obsidian or BioWare, or if it does, they're completely deaf to it.
I stand by what I said. Bethesda has, in the long term, proven itself to be less shitty than either Obsidian or BioWare, at least thus far.
 

Charleston

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I don't even know what the plot of fallout 4 is because i'm not a woman so I had no interest in finding some random baby. not sure what could be worse than a baby when you're trying to be an apocalyptic mercenary. i hope that baby died.
Which is part of the problem with Fallout 4's plot. Right out of the gate, they shoehorn you in to the role of being a parent with a new born. They went even further by establishing the background for both the male and female character, which has no tie in with the game beyond, "This is Dick and Nora's background!" It gets even more stupid at the cryo vault when they shoot your spouse once you realize what the plot is. In fact, it's stupid they didn't take EVERYONE from that vault given the plot. It's not like the Enclave in Fallout 2 didn't take everyone from Vault 13 and everyone from Arroyo.

But then I guess the game couldn't happen the way they wanted it to happen.


The issue with modern (RP)Gs is that everybody wants to tell their grand stories. The budget of AAA games nowadays meets or exceeds several feature films and TV shows.

A typical, linear, adventure / action game is perfectly fine to tell a story from start to finish in the way the devs desire. Telling a story through the lens of an RPG requires a lot more tastefulness. The story has to be built up for a longer period of time than a typical game (or movie, or show) because the players have to be given at least a semblance of a chance to CARE about what is happening.

Bethesda games have time and again failed at hooking the player into a main story for several releases. Even Morrowind can fail at this to a degree, although I would argue it gives you a bit more time to wander and care about your character and the world. Fallout 3 at least gave a tiny amount of setup for your character before making you find Liam Neeson, but I personally think the main story is on par with 4.
 

Salem

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Most modern writing is utterly bollocks because they fail in some shape or form due to poor structure not living up to execution, unbalanced ego and so fourth.

Hard to do it write unless you have the right creative. Or just blind luck.

Fallout 3 core's story had a decent beginning to end with a fair conclusion if you add the DLC post feedback. It was better than 4 here come the end side.
 

Vyvian

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I wonder if this will give me a weapon in the starting zone that carries me through the entire game like TOW did. Itemization in that game was god awful.
 

Falksi

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obsidian don't deserve shit rating. they are too meh to pull it. mediocrity incarnate.
They do.

Objectively their stuff might be mid, but to actually play and engage with Outer Worlds was absolutely boring as fuck. Fucking mind-numbing in every way.

A lot of the time I actually hate games which tease with potential quality but deliver mediocrity more than I do bad games, because at least bad games show themselves up sooner and often offer some form of entertainment in something to laugh at lol.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Overall, they did a good job getting that 'Fallout' feeling bang on to respect the mantle of the prior titles and make it stand on its own feet. They did succeed here.
Keep in mind that Fallout was Fallout's first time, and they nailed it. One issue with Fallout 3 is Bethesda developers, rather than looking at Fallout and imitating that, they looked at Fallout 2 and went that route. They just didn't do the Theme Park Town thing, but they went full on with goofy shit. They also showed that they couldn't break themselves away from a fantasy setting by turning the Super Mutants in to Orcish types, which only got worse in Fallout 4. They had to include the vampires but not really vampires.

They also wanted West Coast Fallout but on the East Coast when there's no reason why the East Coast would look anything like the West Coast since the reasons the West Coast looks like it did were because of things that were only found on the West Coast. They took a wrecking ball to the lore just to get a square peg in a round hole, and toss everything they could in an area where that stuff shouldn't exist.

I did enjoy Fallout 3 a lot but New Vegas is still the king
Fallout 3 is better than Fallout 4, which goes to show that Bethesda is really bad at looking at what someone else has done and adding to it without wrecking everything. That sums up both Fallout 3 and Fallout 4. With Fallout 3, they had Fallout and Fallout 2 to use for their world, but they took some of the worst aspects of Fallout 2 and ran with it. With Fallout 4, they had New Vegas to look at, and they completely shit the bed. They completely casualized Fallout to the point where it's not even a role playing game anymore. They casualized the SPECIAL system to the point where skills like lockpicking and speech have no nuance. They went from a system of having locks and speech checks can not only have a percentage value that range from 0% to 95% BUT ALSO have additional modifiers in Fallout and Fallout 2 to one that just has a scale from 0% to 95% in Fallout 3, then down to only having four difficulties of lock and four difficulties of speech check in Fallout 4.

In Fallout and Fallout 2, just as an example, you encounter a lock. It can have a base difficulty of 85%, right? It's a super tough lock. Since the skill for lock picking could range from 0% to 255%, you can toss on environmental factors. Is it dark? Add 25%. Are you in combat? Add 35%. Anything your skill has above 100% goes towards offsetting the environmental add ons. Bethesda failed to understand that, or just dumbed it down because most of their audience don't understand why it's possible to have a skill above 100%. New Vegas didn't fix this, probably because of the time crunch and J.E. Sawyer never understood this either.

The reason I compared The Outer Worlds to Fallout 4 is because it's also casualized. I'm not saying the difficulty should be raised, but there should be consequences for actions. There should be something that comes along later if you take the easier route. The Outer Worlds had a much better character system than Fallout 4 that allows for a lot more design elements, but the designers didn't really push the envelope on it.

However, the decline continued whilst Bethesda remained at a consistent level. It's like a drop followed by a straight line, whilst the likes of O*sidian and B*oWare just continued fucking dropping. Endlessly. It's like, I hate Skyrim, but it's somewhat okayish to play in terms of fun. Fallout 4, despite butchering what little vestiges of RPG was left after Fallout 3, is still, somewhat fun to play (so long as you stay the fuck away from any and all quests).
I don't know. I see a consistent decline from Bethesda from Morrowind on. With just Elder Scrolls, each game forward removed whole chunks of the character system until you got to Skyrim, which barely had one at all. With Fallout 3, they mostly implemented SPECIAL as it was in the previous games. As least, that is to say, it's recognizable as the SPECIAL system in Fallout 3. Fallout 4 completely gutted it. I've heard the character system in Fallout 76 is better, but I can't bring myself to buy an online Fallout.

Shattered Space has mostly negative reviews on Steam, they're done. Growing so much so quickly destroyed their culture.
Growing so much so quickly yet also moving at a snail's pace on releases. They've been rewarded for their bad decisions so many times, they just continue to make worse and worse choices. Not having an overall game design document for the games they're making and just letting designers do their own thing rears it's head more and more often with their most recent four games. As I pointed out already in this thread, they couldn't even nail down the synth lore in Fallout 4. A design document would have gone a long way towards not having all the mistakes made with what synths are. Either they don't need to eat and sleep or Danse and the rest of the Brotherhood of Steel wouldn't have known he's a synth. You can't be around for 15 or so years and never figure out that you're not hungry or sleepy means you're not human.

You had two different designers with two opposing reasons on why synths are supposedly scary.

The issue with modern (RP)Gs is that everybody wants to tell their grand stories.
This is true. They really need to focus more on a compelling world than a compelling story. The story should be more about how you play your game while the world is doing it's thing with your assistance.
 

Charleston

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They also wanted West Coast Fallout but on the East Coast when there's no reason why the East Coast would look anything like the West Coast since the reasons the West Coast looks like it did were because of things that were only found on the West Coast. They took a wrecking ball to the lore just to get a square peg in a round hole, and toss everything they could in an area where that stuff shouldn't exist.
This was my absolute MOST hated "feature" of Fallout 3 when it released.

There is ZERO reason (see my points in previous post) that they had to have all of these creatures just to copy and bring forward the "Fallout" name.

Easiest example being super mutants, I don't give a rat's about the "lore" Bethesda jumbled together to explain their existence.
I will (personally) never look at the 3D fallout games as ever being a part of the same saga. I definitely enjoy playing them from time to time but there is exactly 0% love towards the story beats. It exists only to kill creatures with guns.
 

orcinator

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In Fallout and Fallout 2, just as an example, you encounter a lock. It can have a base difficulty of 85%, right? It's a super tough lock. Since the skill for lock picking could range from 0% to 255%, you can toss on environmental factors. Is it dark? Add 25%. Are you in combat? Add 35%. Anything your skill has above 100% goes towards offsetting the environmental add ons. Bethesda failed to understand that, or just dumbed it down because most of their audience don't understand why it's possible to have a skill above 100%. New Vegas didn't fix this, probably because of the time crunch and J.E. Sawyer never understood this either.
This is a good example of CRPG cargo cult design: focusing on importing the entirety of GURPS: Locksmithing into your game instead of thinking about the depth of interaction.
Interplay Fallout has more complex lockpicking than the Bethesda sequels but how does it actually work in the game? You use lockpicking on lock until you open it, realize your skill is too low to bother or critfail and jam the lock (which does something but I forgot the specifics). At no point are you presented with an interesting choice besides wondering if you need to quickload if you jammed it.
 

damager

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Oh you are. You can lock the bandits inside their keep and murder the ones outside first. Works in fallout 2 with the lockpick skill :lol:
 

orcinator

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Oh you are. You can lock the bandits inside their keep and murder the ones outside first. Works in fallout 2 with the lockpick skill :lol:
Huh? Oh it's a *new* Fallout 2 feature, that's why I never noticed it.
This is actually what the old games did well, actually letting you interact with stuff without giving you a "Do u use skill fgt?" prompt, not whether the conditions will have it take 2~ extra attempts to open locker number 361. Not exactly perfect, i.e. super stimpaks are a very boring way to get free kills once you know you can do it.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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This is a good example of CRPG cargo cult design: focusing on importing the entirety of GURPS: Locksmithing into your game instead of thinking about the depth of interaction.
There was actually a discussion on this in the shoutbox, and I got some push back on why it's better to have skills above 100%. I really should have said that if you take someone that can pick a lock every single time, you could say that he has a 100% lockpick skill, because he can do it every single time. Now turn off the lights in the room and see what happens. Now shoot at him while he's trying to pick that lock. Or punch him while he's picking the lock. Now pick the lock underwater. There are a number of circumstances above and beyond just the skill of the guy versus the difficulty of the lock that can affect that guy's ability to open it. His skill with the lock hasn't changed. The lock didn't change. The circumstances around picking the lock have changed.

This is for Roguey and darkpatriot who were two of the ones that seemed to thing 100% should be 100% because it's not intuitive enough otherwise.
 

orcinator

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There was actually a discussion on this in the shoutbox, and I got some push back on why it's better to have skills above 100%. I really should have said that if you take someone that can pick a lock every single time, you could say that he has a 100% lockpick skill, because he can do it every single time. Now turn off the lights in the room and see what happens. Now shoot at him while he's trying to pick that lock. Or punch him while he's picking the lock. Now pick the lock underwater. There are a number of circumstances above and beyond just the skill of the guy versus the difficulty of the lock that can affect that guy's ability to open it. His skill with the lock hasn't changed. The lock didn't change. The circumstances around picking the lock have changed.
Yeah, this is the stuff for an actual Notepads and VTT's RPG where a GM can set the scene wherever they want and the players can also influence it in different ways Or maybe a game that's actually designed for using skils UNDER PRESSURE which is not what Fallout is designed around.

Hence, Cargo Cult design trying to imitate the mechanics of N n' V RPGs without considering why any of this shit would matter.
 
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Roguey

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There was actually a discussion on this in the shoutbox, and I got some push back on why it's better to have skills above 100%. I really should have said that if you take someone that can pick a lock every single time, you could say that he has a 100% lockpick skill, because he can do it every single time. Now turn off the lights in the room and see what happens. Now shoot at him while he's trying to pick that lock. Or punch him while he's picking the lock. Now pick the lock underwater. There are a number of circumstances above and beyond just the skill of the guy versus the difficulty of the lock that can affect that guy's ability to open it. His skill with the lock hasn't changed. The lock didn't change. The circumstances around picking the lock have changed.

This is for @Roguey and @darkpatriot who were two of the ones that seemed to thing 100% should be 100% because it's not intuitive enough otherwise.

My issue with this is what's the ceiling? It's so lopsided and opaque. There's no benefit to being able to raise, say, your repair skill to 300% so why does the game let you do this? And figuring out the sweet spots for all these various non-combat skills requires trial and error (or looking it up online) as opposed to weapon skills where you can keep pouring points into them until you get 95% on an eyeshot in adverse conditions.

By contrast, in New Vegas, there's a clear and tangible benefit to raising any given skill to 100.
 

Grauken

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This is a good example of CRPG cargo cult design: focusing on importing the entirety of GURPS: Locksmithing into your game instead of thinking about the depth of interaction.
There was actually a discussion on this in the shoutbox, and I got some push back on why it's better to have skills above 100%. I really should have said that if you take someone that can pick a lock every single time, you could say that he has a 100% lockpick skill, because he can do it every single time. Now turn off the lights in the room and see what happens. Now shoot at him while he's trying to pick that lock. Or punch him while he's picking the lock. Now pick the lock underwater. There are a number of circumstances above and beyond just the skill of the guy versus the difficulty of the lock that can affect that guy's ability to open it. His skill with the lock hasn't changed. The lock didn't change. The circumstances around picking the lock have changed.

This to me doesn't call for going beyond 100% lockpick skills and instead a combined attribute/skill check for extraordinary circumstances. For me skills are normal usage not stuff that happens once in a blue moon.
 

darkpatriot

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This is a good example of CRPG cargo cult design: focusing on importing the entirety of GURPS: Locksmithing into your game instead of thinking about the depth of interaction.
There was actually a discussion on this in the shoutbox, and I got some push back on why it's better to have skills above 100%. I really should have said that if you take someone that can pick a lock every single time, you could say that he has a 100% lockpick skill, because he can do it every single time. Now turn off the lights in the room and see what happens. Now shoot at him while he's trying to pick that lock. Or punch him while he's picking the lock. Now pick the lock underwater. There are a number of circumstances above and beyond just the skill of the guy versus the difficulty of the lock that can affect that guy's ability to open it. His skill with the lock hasn't changed. The lock didn't change. The circumstances around picking the lock have changed.

This is for Roguey and darkpatriot who were two of the ones that seemed to thing 100% should be 100% because it's not intuitive enough otherwise.

I'm personally not even a fan of a 1-100% skill scale, but if you are going to do it, making it even higher and more granular just makes it worse. And it isn't primarily about intuitiveness, although that is a secondary concern. The problem is the difference between 55%-56% is not noticeable and it is wasted granularity. Character development and customization options should have a much larger impact.

However regarding intuitiveness, your skill value should not be presented as a percentage success chance anyway. Because as you mentioned, other factors should affect how hard or easy a task is, not just your skill %. And if you express it as a percentage, it makes it sound like that should be the percentage to succeed. If you have a 60% skill, it is can be very unintuitive if you are only hitting 20% of the time because of other factors.

I would rather see the scale go 1-5 than 1-100, although 1-10 or 1-20 or whatever else might also work. And I think 1-20 is probably already getting to the limit of how granular it should be. And really a 20 scale is only really desirable if you are talking about tabletop and an actual 1d20 die roll which lines up nicely with a 1-10 or 1-20 scale, representing a 5% increased chance to succeed.

But if you are talking about a CRPG that isn't simulating dice rolls, I think the value for highest skill should generally be somewhere around 4-10.

That is from my experience creating my own tabletop RPG systems and playing them with my friends over the years, anyway. Initially I was drawn to higher numbers and higher granularity, but as I tried more stuff out I gravitated more towards lower granularity for stats and skills and other stuff for the reasons mentioned. It also makes the mental math easier, but that is more of a tabletop consideration than a CRPG consideration.

TL;DR: GURPS is a mechanically bad system and it should not be copied by CRPGs.
 
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