Interview Tim Cain interviewed by DAC

[The Ninth Circle]

How many developers outright bash other games? The worst example I can recall is when Cain himself answered as to why ToEE had turn-based combat and told the interviewer to ask the other developers why they're essentially licensing a system only to change it anyway. Hardly bashing, more like defending his position. Remember that he has a Fallout game spec'd out and Bethesda holds the key to that slim possibility that he may be able to fulfill that wish. Saying their game sucked would do nothing but earn him internet props on three forums and severely limit his future employment possibilities.. just look at how far Bethesda went with the Douglas Goodall interview.

 

[Quilty]

loosing his job

THIS IS MADNESS.

:grammarrage:

 

[Davaris]

loosing his job

THIS IS MADNESS.

:grammarrage:

This is office politics.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

How many developers outright bash other games?

Developers bash other games when it suits their interests. FINO3 devs seemed to especially enjoy bashing Fallout 1 and 2.
When Tim Cain was in Troika, bashing Interplay/Fallout 2 wasn't against his interests.

Julian Gollop is pretty bitter about what happened to X-Com in his interviews. He has his own company too.

 

[The Ninth Circle]

How many developers outright bash other games?

Developers bash other games when it suits their interests.

Sure, but as I said, he has the hopes of one day creating his Fallout based game. How would bashing the keymasters help that interest? That and Bethesda now entering the MMO field is another employment opportunity for his future.

 

[King of Creation]

What happened to Fargo's rumored revival of Wasteland, the market has been primed for any post-apoc shit since FO3's release, his window is rapidly closing.

Not really a rumor...more like a confirmed game-in-the-works but not ready to say anything yet. Well, "yet" is subjective here. Expect to hear about Fargo's game really soon.

As for the earlier Tim Cain interview, it would be a miracle to get an interview like that from a well-known developer nowadays. Everything has to go through PR, and they don't let anything slide that could even hint at bad feelings for other companies. Bethesda's lawyers have a long shadow.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

How many developers outright bash other games?

Developers bash other games when it suits their interests.

Sure, but as I said, he has the hopes of one day creating his Fallout based game. How would bashing the keymasters help that interest? That and Bethesda now entering the MMO field is another employment opportunity for his future.

Frankly, making games for other people sounds like a really shit job.

I wonder what's so precious about the Fallout setting anyway, that so many people seem to want to develop "Fallout" games at all cost. Bethesda wants to make a "Fallout" game, Obsidian wants to make a "Fallout" game, Tim Cain wants to make a "Fallout" game.
I mean, can't they make something new? Something that wasn't raped multiple times?

 

[FeelTheRads]

He might actually like Fallout 3, who the fuck cares?

The most important part is this "Of course, I would have done things differently if I had made it."

 

[Mattresses]

Mattresses, you won't get KKK points in this way, just saying.

?

did I hurt your feelings?

 

[Shannow]

While i fully agree on your "was his choice"-points, i fail to see all those insightfull stuff in your previous "And?"-post. For me it just sounded like an idealist "fight the good fight" agenda, which kinda sounds right, but is a tricky thing to actually pull off, if aplied to yourself.

That's why Heaven is empty. Nothing wrong with being idealistic. And the road to Hell takes one little step at a time

And, i also think that he's just telling a tactful version of the truth, without any cocksucking involved. And he also mentiones, that he "would've done it differently".

I really enjoyed the game, and I think Bethesda’s designers had really done their homework. The game showed they had a deep understanding and knowledge of the key aspects of the original games.

Far too much praise if his real opinion resembled the co'x's.
vs
"I enjoyed parts of the game, and I think Bethesda’s designers did their homework on some of the key aspects of the originals. The game showed they spent a lot of time bringing Fallout to next-gen standards."
There, a co'x opinion, expressed tactfully. No reason for current or future employers (but who'd sell their soul and work for Beth?) to jump down your throat, but no reason to feel sullied either.

 

[Silellak]

Tim Cain didn't agree with my opinion! That must mean he's lying in order to protect his job.

 

[The Ninth Circle]

How many developers outright bash other games?

Developers bash other games when it suits their interests.

Sure, but as I said, he has the hopes of one day creating his Fallout based game. How would bashing the keymasters help that interest? That and Bethesda now entering the MMO field is another employment opportunity for his future.

Frankly, making games for other people sounds like a really shit job.

If they were to give you free reign and you're getting paid the same.. what's the difference? Note that I'm not saying they do, because I simply don't know either way.

I wonder what's so precious about the Fallout setting anyway, that so many people seem to want to develop "Fallout" games at all cost. Bethesda wants to make a "Fallout" game, Obsidian wants to make a "Fallout" game, Tim Cain wants to make a "Fallout" game.
I mean, can't they make something new? Something that wasn't raped multiple times?

The Fallout setting is held in high regard because firstly, we're fascinated by how life would be like if society's pillars were to collapse. It is a genuine, morbid curiosity. How many movies, books and shows have been based off it? A plethora, most poorly done and conceptualized. Here we have a very unique twist of the setting, given that it's retro-futuristic and the world is well developed and constructed (at least in FO1). Given that it's not based on present day future it gives the developers a shitload of opportunities to expand the concept for whatever gameplay or storyline needs they're creating.

The setting also lends itself very well to RPG's as it gives the player an incredibly natural encouragement for exploration. This isn't just a world you're dropped in and then told to go about, in this you're given the feeling that you have to explore to survive. Compare this to other games where you feel like you could enter the main towns, buy a place and settle down and live a good life outside of your "quest". There was none of that. The world itself is an unknown to even established "civilizations". You feel like you're uncovering secrets and locations that have never been discovered prior to your arrival (the lower Glow comes to mind).

Could this be done with many different settings? Unlikely, though VD did well to try and recapture the same feeling of enduring uncertainty with his AoD setting. Even other post-apocalyptic variants are usually based on futures of the present which limit the creativity or are so far in the distant future it feels more like pure sci-fi.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Tim Cain didn't agree with my opinion! That must mean he's lying in order to protect his job.

Tim Cain agrees with my opinion! That must mean Fallout 3 is a great game!

 

[jagged-jimmy]

While i fully agree on your "was his choice"-points, i fail to see all those insightfull stuff in your previous "And?"-post. For me it just sounded like an idealist "fight the good fight" agenda, which kinda sounds right, but is a tricky thing to actually pull off, if aplied to yourself.

That's why Heaven is empty. Nothing wrong with being idealistic. And the road to Hell takes one little step at a time

I love idealists! They fight for all of us cowards. Still, i just said, they aren't common and that becoming one can turn out bad (which wouldn't concern you, if your were idealist, thats hot).

So yeah, if thats what you would've done in that situation ("FO3 sucks dicks! I can't believe those morons at Bethesda sold millions of copies of this shit.") then kudos to you.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Here we have a very unique twist of the setting, given that it's retro-futuristic and the world is well developed and constructed (at least in FO1).

You see, here is the problem. There was Fo1 where the world was well developed and constructed and then there were 4 (soon 5) other "Fallout" games that were raping that well developed and constructed world, because their developers wanted "creative freedom".

Fallout doesn't have to be the only post-apocalyptic retro-futuristic cRPG. Actually, another retro-futuristic post-apocalyptic game was released in the same year as Fallout - X-Com3 Apocalypse.

The setting also lends itself very well to RPG's as it gives the player an incredibly natural encouragement for exploration. This isn't just a world you're dropped in and then told to go about, in this you're given the feeling that you have to explore to survive.

Yeah, one could die out of boredom when a town ran out of content.

The world itself is an unknown to even established "civilizations". You feel like you're uncovering secrets and locations that have never been discovered prior to your arrival (the lower Glow comes to mind).

Which isn't really different from exploring well designed dungeons in fantasy games.

 

[Black]

Good thing people in shit industries that resemble circlejerks more and more express their real opinions if they want to keep the job, eh?

 

[The Ninth Circle]

Here we have a very unique twist of the setting, given that it's retro-futuristic and the world is well developed and constructed (at least in FO1).

You see, here is the problem. There was Fo1 where the world was well developed and constructed and then there were 4 (soon 5) other "Fallout" games that were raping that well developed and constructed world, because their developers wanted "creative freedom".

Where's the issue? The setting is still wonderful and it's four games is still far less than it would feel if someone made another Tolkien inspired (ripped off..) setting. For someone that holds the series so dear, to bring it back it's majesty and charm would be better than kicking off the series to begin with.

Fallout doesn't have to be the only post-apocalyptic retro-futuristic cRPG. Actually, another retro-futuristic post-apocalyptic game was released in the same year as Fallout - X-Com3 Apocalypse.

They weren't nearly the same at all, and you know this. Put them side by side and no one would think they're remotely the same setting. You'd like to compare that world with the "just trying to get by" ramshackled civilizations of Fallout? No comparison.

The setting also lends itself very well to RPG's as it gives the player an incredibly natural encouragement for exploration. This isn't just a world you're dropped in and then told to go about, in this you're given the feeling that you have to explore to survive.

Yeah, one could die out of boredom when a town ran out of content.

That is why people up and relocate so often, right? We were talking from a setting standpoint, not a gameplay.

The world itself is an unknown to even established "civilizations". You feel like you're uncovering secrets and locations that have never been discovered prior to your arrival (the lower Glow comes to mind).

Which isn't really different from exploring well designed dungeons in fantasy games.

Yes, but in even in those, the fact that so much of their known world was unexplored doesn't make sense. With so many warriors, mages and healers, you'd imagine people would join up large groups to better explore their world, whether it be for potential benefits or better understanding possible threats. Simply clearing out the nearby caverns would be a high priority on any city's list for safety. In FO, it makes sense these areas are unexplored because people are too busy just trying to survive. There isn't, outside of the BoS, a force large enough and well equipped enough to do such expeditions.

Point blank, it's difficult to pitch a new idea to publishers. RPG's are already considered a very niche market, so publishers simply won't take those chances. They want to have as much familiarity as possible for the player, as is why we either get sequel after sequel, the same license over and over or simply hack-jobbed rehashing of other settings and systems. Of the now mainstream settings, Fallout is definitely the most interesting in the RPG segment.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

That's why Heaven is empty. Nothing wrong with being idealistic.

As long as you are ready to enter the competition when OPFOR destroys your career.

Where's the issue? The setting is still wonderful and it's four games is still far less than it would feel if someone made another Tolkien inspired (ripped off..) setting.

...

Yes, but in even in those, the fact that so much of their known world was unexplored doesn't make sense. With so many warriors, mages and healers, you'd imagine people would join up large groups to better explore their world, whether it be for potential benefits or better understanding possible threats. Simply clearing out the nearby caverns would be a high priority on any city's list for safety. In FO, it makes sense these areas are unexplored because people are too busy just trying to survive. There isn't, outside of the BoS, a force large enough and well equipped enough to do such expeditions.

The only reason why PC could explore the lower levels of the Glow is that the level design didn't match the descriptions from the brotherhood holodisk.
If it would be true to the fluff, the PC would get killed instantly after encountering the security systems.
If the fluff would match the level design, the Glow would be plundered by BoS long time ago.

Also, fantasy worlds don't need to have tons of mages and healers, and some dangerous places can be too dangerous for most of them due to old magic thingies.

 

[Shannow]

So yeah, if thats what you would've done in that situation ("FO3 sucks dicks! I can't believe those morons at Bethesda sold millions of copies of this shit.") then kudos to you.

When exactly has this become about what I would have done? Would the lying have been any better if I had done it? Are the morals of my actions defined by my self-interests or by general cultural consensus? What kind of hypocrite would even insinuate something like that?
And I actually already posted what I'd have said if I'd been forced to answer that question and feared that my livelihood (though not for my career. I'm not greedy.) depended upon it.

And I still don't think he actually lied. (Knowing your attention spans, I'm sure that needed repeating.)

 

[jagged-jimmy]

So yeah, if thats what you would've done in that situation ("FO3 sucks dicks! I can't believe those morons at Bethesda sold millions of copies of this shit.") then kudos to you.

When exactly has this become about what I would have done?

Of course hes gonna say he loved fallout 3, if he said he hated it publicly he'd have a good chance of loosing his job

And?

And? like "So what, losing the job is nothing compared to lying!" I can't but see your personal opinion coming through here.

Would the lying have been any better if I had done it? Are the morals of my actions defined by my self-interests or by general cultural consensus? What kind of hypocrite would even insinuate something like that?

And I actually already posted what I'd have said if I'd been forced to answer that question and feared that my livelihood (though not for my career. I'm not greedy.) depended upon it.

Whos talking about morals? Its all about self-interests outweighting morals. So if you fail to see my point (i won't talking about your attention span): you basically expressed your opinion and i called you on it. Because, while awesome in theory, only a few people actually have the balls to go against self-interests for some "selfless acts of right-doing". Thats all.

And I still don't think he actually lied. (Knowing your attention spans, I'm sure that needed repeating.)

And, i also think that he's just telling a tactful version of the truth...

Looks like i expressed the same opinion. Should i repeat it?

 

[Ausir]

When Tim Cain was in Troika, bashing Interplay/Fallout 2 wasn't against his interests.

He was pretty sure he wouldn't work at Interplay ever again, though.

 

[Shannow]

So yeah, if thats what you would've done in that situation ("FO3 sucks dicks! I can't believe those morons at Bethesda sold millions of copies of this shit.") then kudos to you.

When exactly has this become about what I would have done?

Of course hes gonna say he loved fallout 3, if he said he hated it publicly he'd have a good chance of loosing his job

And?

And? like "So what, losing the job is nothing compared to lying!" I can't but see your personal opinion coming through here.

And? Strawman. Doesn't really merit any more abuse but since I'm bored: My personal opinion is that instead of trying to excuse every single trespass fans/consumers/humans should be honest with themselves. If you fuck up, admit it.

Whos talking about morals? Its all about self-interests outweighting morals. So if you fail to see my point (i won't talking about your attention span): you basically expressed your opinion and i called you on it.

I was. Since you seem to know a lot about same-sex relationships but little about morals.
You didn't call me out on anything. You created a strawman and I made fun of you for it.

Because, while awesome in theory, only a few people actually have the balls to go against self-interests for some "selfless acts of right-doing". Thats all.

And?

Looks like i expressed the same opinion. Should i repeat it?

Yes please. Since you fail at reading comprehension I just might re-post what I answered the first time. Repetition constitutes 30% of learning as one of my teachers was wont to say.

[Edit]: Sorry. You guys already had me thinking with blinders on. Jimmy, if you can come up with a reasonable attempt on what that comment could have been the tactful version of, I'll take back my last comment

 

[Jaesun]

Tim: I played and finished Fallout 3 as soon as it came out. I really enjoyed the game, and I think Bethesda’s designers had really done their homework. The game showed they had a deep understanding and knowledge of the key aspects of the original games.

Did I drink too many beers and wake up in some fucked up alternate world?

Granted he does have to be professional... but fucking seriously?

 

[Droog White Smile]

Fallout 3 is a great game, why wouldn't he like it? It may not be an "authentic" Fallout sequel, but who the fuck cares?

FFS

 

[KalosKagathos]

Clearly, this Tim Cain character doesn't know shit about Fallout, amirite?