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Timing is the most broken thing in all D&D crpg

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Heresiarch, Mar 24, 2010.

  1. Heresiarch Prophet

    Heresiarch
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    The first thing is resting. Even games in which you can't rest anywhere, or resting can be often interrupted, doesn't make sense most of the time. For example, how the hell is it possible to have a lone room "safe" from monsters, right in the middle of a dungeon, and let you sleep inside for 8 hours? It's not like 8 minutes, but 8 fucking hours. Ironically maybe it's entirely possible in real life to find a empty room in a ruin to rest for 8 hours without being disturbed by random passerbys, but in a dungeon with monsters wandering around hunting for food?

    Especially if you're resting at critical places like an entrance, a prison, or such. Won't other monsters send someone to patrol or get a shift?

    Another thing is crafting. Even TOEE and KOTC which are more or less faithful to the rules, crafting is the biggest flaw in them. According to the actual rules, you must spend 1 day for every 1000 gold worth in the item you craft. Even potions and scrolls require you to spend one day to brew/scribe. So if you want to make 2 healing potions each member for your whole team you're gonna spend at least a whole week. And if you want to enchant your whole team with +3 swords and +3 armor you're gonna spend at least half a year. But in TOEE and KOTC, I can do them all in an instant. But in reality, according to the rules, the actual time I spent on enchanting/crafting those stuff, is enough for the evil guys to destroy everything several times over.

    So I really can't say if crafting is broken or not in CRPG. Due to the fact "time" isn't taken in account to the item cost (as in most CRPG time is worthless and you create items in an instant anyway), and in CRPG you would often get shitload of money very easily, it's quite hard to truly balance out crafting and actual item power in the world.
     
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  2. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
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    Also where's the sense in time being related to cost of the item?

    "Hey this gold ring is much more expensive than this silver ring so it will take me a week longer to craft it even though it's generally the same amount of work, herpderp."
     
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  3. Malakal Arcane

    Malakal
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    Maybe gold is harder to work than silver? It is quite easily bent and shaped when pure.

    Anyway I find save-or-die spells to be way more unbalanced than this. Mage with good spell selection can beat fighters while naked.
     
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  4. bhlaab Arbiter

    bhlaab
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    Because except for pre-patched Fallout time is meaningless in rpgs

    It's never like "I've gotta save the world, and fast!! ... because I start my new job on monday"
     
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  5. mondblut Arcane

    mondblut
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    Cost of an item reflects the power and complexity of enchantment, and the value and rarity of ingredients used. A gold ring itself costs far less than 1000 gold.
     
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  6. Ammar Scholar

    Ammar
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    Which is as it should be IMO. I don't see how a guy with a sword should beat someone who has the kind of power at his fingertips as the stereotypical high fantasy wizard, unless he is equipped with powerful magic items himself. In that case it becomes a contest of magic vs. magic. Real balance is only really needed in MMO-RPGs, which is why D&D 4 ended up with similar rules and roles as WoW.

    As to a good Pen&Paper campagin, you have all sorts of mechanism to prevent your spell casters from stealing the show.
     
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  7. Awor Szurkrarz Arcane In My Safe Space

    Awor Szurkrarz
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    Timing is broken because the adventures are too big and player forces are too small.
     
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  8. Ch1ef Scholar

    Ch1ef
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    DnD sux.














    lol, /thread.
     
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  9. DriacKin Arbiter

    DriacKin
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    MotB had a pretty nice solution to this, imo.
     
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  10. Luzur Prestigious Gentleman Good Sir

    Luzur
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    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Heresiarch Prophet

    Heresiarch
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    Did MotB have crafting in it (I think it has, it's been a while). You are supposed to die several times over after finishing your +7 flaming sword. Unless spend 8 hours to sleep, 8 hours working on your sword, 8 hours go out hunting for souls, everyday...for almost a whole year.
     
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  12. Phelot Arcane

    Phelot
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    The problem lies with the now standard RPG formula which inculdes:

    Lots of enemies
    Lots of shit enemies drop
    Ultra Epic Evil Villian that is going to destroy the universe

    if there were less enemies, then the party wouldn't have to rest as much and it would be reasonable to assume that the party, for example rest in town, goes to dungeon, clears it, goes back to town and rests again.

    As for crafting, when it is treated as a simple matter of clicking a few times in inventory or finding a magical "Archers Table" that transforms your shit into arrows at the click of a button, then it's not treated correctly IMO. It shold take a lot of time to craft something and it should be made worthwhile to do so yet require careful planning so as not to waste too much time. IMO, a characters inventory should never be flooded with crafting materials. I'd look at Unreal World as an excellent example of crafting done right.

    I'd like an RPG that doesn't have some epic ultra time limited evil villain for a change. Most of the old PnP campaigns were rather low scale and I don't see why this wouldn't work on a cRPG. I'm thinking a central town/village as a base with up to 4 to 5 locations and perhaps a few smaller sidequest type locations. With not as much to write for and not having to make varied locations, more time could be spent on making a more detailed and realistic setting. One were every NPC has more then three lines of dialogue and whose only purpose is to dish out a quest.

    Oh fuck work...
     
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  13. Castanova Prophet

    Castanova
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    Resting is a stupid mechanic anyway. Just like having to eat. The game doesn't make you find a place to take a shit does it? In D&D, resting is just a gimmick to prevent spellcasters from being overpowered.

    Still, if you're willing to accept that a dungeon exists which is just a random set of passages filled with a random assortment of monsters, then surely you can accept that your party of adventurers can find an out-of-the-way room and either board up the door or take turns guarding the door during the night...
     
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  14. Xor Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Xor
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    Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
    We had a thread a while back on why crpgs will never match tabletop rpgs and things like crafting and balance go right back to that issue.

    Also, as I recall, some people here hated MotB for the spirit meter, using cheats and shit to keep it full constantly. I thought it was a great device to keep the party moving and add tension to the game, personally.
     
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  15. Silellak Cipher

    Silellak
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    Don't forget the fact it's basically a Choice & Consequences Meter, since most of the decisions you make directly or indirectly factor in to how that Meter behaves and how you replenish it.
     
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  16. Azrael the cat Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Azrael the cat
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    This. D&D was never ever balanced for PvP, and they've always been upfront about that. It doesn't matter that a high level mage can destroy a high level fighter - what matters is whether both can contribute meaningfully to the party. To a lesser extent, you want it balanced so that a party with a fighter and a mage is better than a party with 2 mages but no tank. But their power in a 1v1 fight doesn't matter in a game designed for cooperative parties rather than PvP (sure in pen and paper you might very occasionally have intra-party conflict, but in PnP that is very rarely decided by a straight up arena-esque fight: it's more about subtletly and taking the other guy by surprise, unless you're all munchkins).

    If anything, there might be a problem with summons, to the extent that they may allow a party to bypass the need for tanks. Having said that, in PnP a summoned minion (who - unlike crpgs - isn't just an extension of the caster that summoned it) will never have the flexibility of an actual player-controlled intelligent tank.
     
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  17. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

    Damned Registrations
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    Are you kidding? Earth elementals can phase through stone and earth, air elementals can fly, all are immune to many types of traps and spells. And thats the frailest kind of summon. Call up something like a mid level demon or angel and they can do really crazy shit, like having spell like abilities, damage reduction combined with regeneration, or outright actual spellcasting powers. The standard most broken thing a wizard can do is gate in an angel to cast priest buffs on himself and his other minions. One spell traded for a dozen he can't cast.

    Magic isn't even close to balanced in DnD because they won't give PC fighters the same kind of abilities as 'non-magical' monsters that the wizard is on par with. If rogues could run, pounce and climb like a equivalent level monster or animal they'd actually be useful. If a decent level warrior actually had the kind of hp, strength, damage reduction and regeneration of something like a troll or werewolf, he'd be useful. Instead, warriors and rogues will always be on par with the shit you fought at level 1: zombies, orcs and goblins. Meanwhile the wizard has skin like a golem, flies, is invisible and attacks like a dragon's breath weapon. The cleric or druid hits like a giant in enchanted full plate armor with half an army of bears, while self healing and long range attacks besides.

    For DnD to be balanced they'd have to give the fighters three times as many feats, skill points and 6 times the attribute bonuses as wizards. And quarter the price of all magical weapons and armor, so it's actually worth looking at compared to the miscellaneous stuff. Then you could run around like Conan, lifting impossible weights, surviving mortal wounds and jumping impossible distances.

    As is it's much more 'realistic': A couple of warhorses could kill a low level fighter easily. And they cost less than his armor.
     
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  18. Dirk Diggler Scholar

    Dirk Diggler
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    That's related specifically to magical items. It doesn't apply to mundane ones.
     
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  19. Visbhume Prophet

    Visbhume
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    ¿Could you please point me to that thread?
     
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  20. Xor Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Xor
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    Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
    No.
     
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  21. Norfleet Moderator

    Norfleet
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    What I've always wondered is why magic items cost several metric tons of gold to make in the first place. How does gold factor into this construction process? Is it directly consumed to create the item, meaning that gold is magical and infusing a magic item with the power of gold is what gives it magical properties? Or are you actually flushing several metric tons of gold into the economy of a tiny village to buy esoteric and unknown supplies that they probably don't have?
     
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  22. Xor Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Xor
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    Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
    Balance reasons. If magic items are cheap to make, they'll be cheap to buy, and you probably don't want the player running around with the best items in the game at level 4.
     
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  23. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

    Damned Registrations
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    I guess the premise is that you'd be buying these esoteric items required for making the items from toher powerful, wealthy adventurers. But in most game worlds you're the only people to ever amass more than 1000 gp or attain level 5.

    Given a sufficiently large game universe, no sum of wealth will be large relative to the available economy. Kings purchase land and crowns, adventurers purchase magic items and services, godlings purchase planes and artifacts.
     
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  24. Awor Szurkrarz Arcane In My Safe Space

    Awor Szurkrarz
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    IIRC there was a TSR book for Forgotten Realms about magic and magic items that had a few chapters about their creation, properties and prices of various materials, components, etc.

    The gold thingie is just dumbing down.
     
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  25. Mackerel Augur

    Mackerel
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    Any self-respecting DM wouldn't let his players outright buy the exotic components needed for the creation of a magical item, they should all be quested for over a suitable period of time. The research to identify the exact items required for a specific item should not be inconsiderable either, which leaves a lot of room for plane-hopping and bargains with eldritch entities. I can't believe anyone follows those retarded rules for gold costs and exact days required, so many PnP players lack any imagination.
     
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