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To tag or not to tag, that is the question - my attempt at feedback for CSG

Eyestabber

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
4,733
Location
HUEland
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Hello,

I've been away from CSG for almost a year now, last time I played there was an energy sniper rifle with Hargrave. Much has changed since back then, but the thing that I want to discuss ITT is the new tagging system or how tags essentially became the "meta" and everything else should be planned around them. I wanna start by saying this: I do not consider the present state of affairs to be a bad thing, I'm only making this thread to ensure we're all on the same page when discussing CSG's system going forward. If my analysis is wrong, feel free to correct me but the way I see it skill checks have been balanced in a way that makes "technical tags" mandatory and, to the best of my knowledge, there is simply no way access their content without spending a tag. By "technical" I mean Computer, Electronics and Lockpick. These three skills have in common the fact that they are all "classic" skill checks that work identical to the days of AoD. You either have the skill and you pass, or you don't, simple af.

Even if the arguments here presented apply to all skills to an extent, I want to point out that these three skills (again: Electronics, Computer and Lockpick) are the best examples of the new "tag or die" design philosophy. Each of these skills have a "final boss" check of 6 before the factory and AFAIK there is simply no way to pass this check without spending a tag. I tried every possible way of getting them to 6 without a tag and failed every time. Skill monkey + tokens can't bump the skill high enough to make up for being two levels behind and Mastermind no longer applies to non-tagged skills, meaning it is useless as far as "letting me get away with not tagging computers" go. Actually, tagging the "mandatory three" with Mastermind is a gigantic waste, since the player will quickly reach obscenely high values in these skills that have absolutely no use whatsoever.

Here we draw an important distinction between the "mandatory three" and other skills: there's no consolation prize for almost having it, and there is no reward for exceeding the check. Meaning the "right" way to use these skills is having the exact number needed, no more, no less. And that's achieved by putting a tag on ANY character, since these skills aren't affected by attributes. On that same note, it seems like the training tokens only really work for the sake of convenience, because you can reach 6 with a tag and no tokens and using tokens but having no tag still means you won't reach 6.

On the other end of the spectrum we have the new persuasion system. I'm gonna go on a limb here and say this is the best persuasion system I've seen in an RPG to date. ALL my pet peeves against other systems like CHA having no impact and skills being redundant have been addressed. CSG's persuasion system will be a paradigm for evaluating similar systems in the future, mark my word. And that leaves us with the inevitable question: couldn't the "mandatory three" be somehow adjusted to behave more like the social skills? Not by making a crappy "computer disposition", but perhaps we could find another way to alleviate the "tag or die" nature of these skills? Maybe one party member could play the role of assistant and lend a portion of his own skill to the main user? Or perhaps a Mastermind hacker could find additional info/goodies on computers? Like the booster-computer in Mission control could give a second booster to a Mastermind hacker?

Feat-wise I guess Mastermind and Skill Monkey X Educated would be the most relevant for the discussion. I feel like currently Educated jumped from being "kinda good" to "mandatory on everyone" while Mastermind went from godlike to FAIL. Skill monkey seems to be a new feat (or did I miss it previously?) meant to pick up where MM left, but it is simply not strong enough. Perhaps time will change things and skill monkey will get to shine once more SP have been acquired in general, but as it stands SM doesn't save you from spending a tag. While all weapons skills, CS, Dodge and Armor are debatable and can be tagged or skipped according to your build, it seems like the "mandatory three" are a clear cut case of "either someone tags this or you'll lose content". Again, I'm not saying this is bad, maybe the devs do think "only a dedicated electronics expert should be able to open the disruptor/stasis door in Mission Control" and that's perfectly fine.

Anyway, how y'all feel about the current state of tags? On a side note, shouldn't companions be barred from tagging speech skills? Or is there a possibility of allowing companion talkers in the future? If that is ever the case, Jed will instantly become the best companion in the game with his 7 CHA finally being useful. Don't you think the game should be a bit more transparent over the fact that CHA is a dead stat on companions? (inb4 "muh sarge perk" :nocountryforshitposters:).
 
Last edited:

lukaszek

the determinator
Patron
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
12,618
not sure about electronics, wonder if one can keep it at decent level without tag thanks to damaged implants.

Made a run recently with sneaky haxxxor(10int). Tagged CS, sneak, lockpick, computers and electronics.
Grabbed all feats that helped with skill progressions. Couldnt keep up with bio/steal. Managed to reach 20 combat rep to get past certain encounters.
Meanwhile all the tagged skills were in overkill range. Didnt have to worry about sequencing places to go etc. I dont want to get into min-maxing system thats likely to change but I dont think that Id be able to pass all the checks without those tags. With previous mastermind version one could keep up with lockpick and electronics without a tag - but not computers.

As such system could def use some tuning. Went from jack of all(half) trades friendly(although requiring extreme levels of meta knowledge) to indeed tag or die system
 

Tsubutai

Educated
Joined
Oct 5, 2021
Messages
165
The "final boss" checks before leaving for the factory aren't really final since you'll be able to come back for them later on, when you'll be able to move freely between all of the game's locations. AFAIK if you go all-in on boosting untagged skills with Skill Monkey and the level III mental fortitude mutation, you can reach 5 in lockpick, computers, and electronics in the Habitat without tags (and 4 in Steal), so 6 should be reachable eventually. Additionally, most of the stuff behind those skillchecks is just bonus loot - the only quest item behind level 6 checks is one of the droid parts.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
The "final boss" checks before leaving for the factory aren't really final since you'll be able to come back for them later on, when you'll be able to move freely between all of the game's locations. AFAIK if you go all-in on boosting untagged skills with Skill Monkey and the level III mental fortitude mutation, you can reach 5 in lockpick, computers, and electronics in the Habitat without tags (and 4 in Steal), so 6 should be reachable eventually. Additionally, most of the stuff behind those skillchecks is just bonus loot - the only quest item behind level 6 checks is one of the droid parts.

Probably many of that loot will be looted by others, wouldn't be a ITS game otherwise.
 

Iluvcheezcake

Prophet
Joined
Aug 27, 2014
Messages
1,651
Location
Le Balkans
Make int give disposition for computers, electro and biotech.
Make dex give disposition for sneak, lockpick and steal
 

Trithne

Erudite
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
1,191
:necro:

Up to the Habitat for the first time and it does seem that if you haven't got Lockpick/Computer/Electronics to 6 before that point, you're shit out of luck. Whether this requires a tag or not I can't say, without tagging Comp or Elec, but with a couple of training tokens, I've got Faythe at 6/5/5, but those 5s really feel like they might as well be 0s in the Habitat.

I feel like a few more difficulty 3/4/5 checks for the technical skills in either the Habitat or the Factory could be enough - I did every single check I could find and didn't get to 6 in those two. This is with Educated and Skill Monkey on Faythe as well.
 

Tsubutai

Educated
Joined
Oct 5, 2021
Messages
165
I think the devs have said that there will be a balance pass looking at the distribution of trainers and tokens for different skills once the remaining areas have been added.
 

Iluvcheezcake

Prophet
Joined
Aug 27, 2014
Messages
1,651
Location
Le Balkans
:necro:

Up to the Habitat for the first time and it does seem that if you haven't got Lockpick/Computer/Electronics to 6 before that point, you're shit out of luck. Whether this requires a tag or not I can't say, without tagging Comp or Elec, but with a couple of training tokens, I've got Faythe at 6/5/5, but those 5s really feel like they might as well be 0s in the Habitat.

I feel like a few more difficulty 3/4/5 checks for the technical skills in either the Habitat or the Factory could be enough - I did every single check I could find and didn't get to 6 in those two. This is with Educated and Skill Monkey on Faythe as well.
Afaik the idea is that in later stages only tagged skills will keep up the pace
 

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