TOEE first playthrough

[Rulion]

All this ToEE talk made me go and get the game. I've installed the Co8 pack and I'm good to go. I started the game with all the alignments just to check out the vignettes and, from my quick glimpse, it looks like Chaotic Evil and Chaotic Good are the most engaging.

So I went to the inn and got myself a party (I'm using 1 Rogue PC) and was a little disappointed that nobody told me off. Do ToEE NPC's have personality? I mean, do they bicker amongst themselves? Disagree with a decision I made? Because from what I've seen, everyone in my Chaotic Evil party looks and sounds like they have Something-Good alignments.

Because if they don't, then I'd rather make my own party. I was just worried I'd miss out on entertaining banter.

 

[cardtrick]

The NPCs you picked up at the inn are not NPCs; they're just PCs that have been created for you in case you're lazy. They have no personality whatsoever.

You should make your own party (somewhere between 4 and 6 characters is ideal). You will then, while playing the game, stumble across other NPCs who are actual NPCs with a bit of dialog who can be recruited. You're not going to get a lot of banter like in a Bioware game -- not even as much as in Arcanum -- but there will be some. (Personally, if I ever play through again, I'm not going to bother recruiting any extra NPCs. It got too annoying controlling 8 characters. I think I'll just make a 3 or 4 person party and leave it at that.)

 

[Gragt]

You can make only 5 characters maximum, these are your own party and share stuff among them.

The other characters you can recruit can exceed the limit of 5 party members but they are already pre-generated (which can be good or bad) and they will also take a share of the loot for themselves. Basically think of them as mercenaries to add to your ranks.

Not many of them are very interesting though if you want a solid fighter, Elmo is pretty nice from the start and I think he takes only gold and not items, thus not clogging his inventory. Plus he is drunk without impacting his stats and it's nice.

Edit: and as stated there is no real party interaction though having some NPC in your group can trigger some special event during the game.

 

[AlanC9]

If you're working with the canonical 10 level cap, I'd avoid any multiclass other than fighter/rogue.

I'm not sure I'd even do that, given Liv's additions. You can really screw yourself if you don't have a wizard or a pure rogue.

 

[AlanC9]

re. Liv's 'wacky' lock dc changes - not so wacky really. I went through them all just a few months ago (including her trap changes) to check the DCs because so many people complained about not being able to do them. A relatively low level pure rogue can unlock every single one if even mildly buffed. Which left me perplexed as to why people were complaining - if there's not a rogue in the party, there is at least one available as an NPC at the start of the game and even if you hate rogues, surely someone in the party needs to specialise in the thieving arts? Never really understood that complaint since.

"omeone in the party needs to specialize in the thieving arts?" Needs?

Are you really saying that a party must include a pure rogue, whether NPC or PC?

The issue is that you can be screwed by surprise from the trap you reach late in the game (until that point being unable to beat some locks and traps isn't a big deal; it's the logical consequence of not having a pure rogue). A large portion of the content is locked behind it. If you haven't had a pure rogue of some kind with you, it's too late to get one by then; even if you hire an NPC, there isn't any way to level him unless you churn random encounters for days. Or you can go through the back door and fight the endgame a couple of levels short. Tough, but it's the only option left.

Now, if you had a big disclaimer on your install saying that you don't believe in people creating any kind of party they like, and that players must take a pure rogue, this wouldn't be a big deal. It's still poor design, but at least players could adapt to it.

 

[Mefi]

"omeone in the party needs to specialize in the thieving arts?" Needs?

Are you really saying that a party must include a pure rogue, whether NPC or PC?

The issue is that you can be screwed by surprise from the trap you reach late in the game (until that point being unable to beat some locks and traps isn't a big deal; it's the logical consequence of not having a pure rogue). A large portion of the content is locked behind it. If you haven't had a pure rogue of some kind with you, it's too late to get one by then; even if you hire an NPC, there isn't any way to level him unless you churn random encounters for days. Or you can go through the back door and fight the endgame a couple of levels short. Tough, but it's the only option left.

Now, if you had a big disclaimer on your install saying that you don't believe in people creating any kind of party they like, and that players must take a pure rogue, this wouldn't be a big deal. It's still poor design, but at least players could adapt to it.

Somewhere between the bits where you use the quote function and when you summarise your brain stopped functioning.

So let's go through it again.

re. Liv's 'wacky' lock dc changes - not so wacky really. I went through them all just a few months ago (including her trap changes) to check the DCs because so many people complained about not being able to do them. A relatively low level pure rogue can unlock every single one if even mildly buffed. Which left me perplexed as to why people were complaining - if there's not a rogue in the party, there is at least one available as an NPC at the start of the game and even if you hate rogues, surely someone in the party needs to specialise in the thieving arts? Never really understood that complaint since.

With regards to Liv's lock DC changes, they are neither ludicrous or demanding. Guess what - all bar one can be opened by magic! The horror. They are all perfectly reasonable DCs.

With regards to the one trap which you are referring to (and which was not covered in my general rhetorical question), the DC for it is very low for the level at which you will be to reach that point of the game and there is an alternative solution which requires no skills in the thieving arts. It can also be solved by the NPC thief available at the very start of the game with the most minor of magical assistance available to every cleric.

As for the general point, yes in a DnD universe, where there is no alternative to bash the lock open, to open a lock you either need to have put points into a skill called Open Lock or have a magical alternative.

 

[Gromnir]

TOEE as originally released was such a half-assed, incomplete, flawed game that it's not like the modders are ruining some masterpiece.

*gasp*

but spazmo said it were teh Bomb! got the official codex stamp o' approval and all that. you ain't going 'gainst the groupthink is you, or is this a matter o' codexian hindsight overcoming initial timmy cain fanboyism?

regardless, the squad-based tactical combat, while not exactly as accurate as some would suggest (potions aoe glitches and polearm quirks were just a couple blunders,) were pretty darn fun... if you could get the game to run in some certain locales. Gromnir never did manage to endure the elemental node slow downs, but the combat (non rpg aspects) were pretty fun, and we were saddened when tim cain and co blew a chance to do a follow up game. woulda' been nice to see a second attempt that fixed the very obvious and surmountable flaws o' the first game. is a real shame that there were no second game to give the developers a chance to get it right and to advance the cause o' tb d&d crpgs.


HA! Good Fun!

 

[Crichton]

Uh oh, somebody bumped another anti-Co8 bitching thread! Quick! To the straw men!

Edit: Oh yeah, I reinstalled ToEE to play the KotB demo, when I have a spare moment, I'll do a quick ToEE OC runthrough with Co8 installed and venture an opinion on the lock and trap jive.

 

[Redeye]

I made 5 barbarians.

For speed/rage/wpn profs.

Then 1 to cleric, keep going to level 9.
1 to wizard, keep going to level 9.
1 to sorc for 1 level ( for extra sleep spells) then to fighter.
1 to cleric for a level for some healing help, then to fighter.(Plus he can use scrolls made by the other cleric.)
1 to sorc for 4 levels (extra sleep plus lots webs), then to fighter.

Fill in rest with NPCs.

The Moathouse was a slumber party.

Only problem was rogue lack.

Maybe fix that.

 

[Mefi]

.

Only problem was rogue lack.

Maybe fix that.

Furnok.

 

[Redeye]

.

Only problem was rogue lack.

Maybe fix that.

Furnok.

That's what I did, but I eventually ditched him for an extra fighter NPC.

 

[Mefi]

That's what I did, but I eventually ditched him for an extra fighter NPC.

Then it worked as it should work

One day the NPC loot bug will be fixed and we'll have NPCs as Troika hoped they'd work...

 

[PorkaMorka]

With regards to Liv's lock DC changes, they are neither ludicrous or demanding. Guess what - all bar one can be opened by magic! The horror. They are all perfectly reasonable DCs.

With regards to the one trap which you are referring to (and which was not covered in my general rhetorical question), the DC for it is very low for the level at which you will be to reach that point of the game and there is an alternative solution which requires no skills in the thieving arts. It can also be solved by the NPC thief available at the very start of the game with the most minor of magical assistance available to every cleric.

As for the general point, yes in a DnD universe, where there is no alternative to bash the lock open, to open a lock you either need to have put points into a skill called Open Lock or have a magical alternative.

The DCs from the moathouse treasure chests are too high considering the stuff in them is not that good (was there anything unique in there or just some potions and scrolls?) Considering how early it is, you'll probably have to come back for them unless you plan specifically for those chests.

I had a fighter/theif, with 16 agility. (only one level of fighter) And I had to go all the way back into the moathouse after clearing it to be able to open them. I buffed him with the level 0 spell that gives +1, but hadn't wasted spell slots on cats grace or knock by then. Waste of time, not fun.

Other than that, the orc cave battle is fun, but the armor it gives is very overpowered, and the new town is very beta quality, i found a dialog option with the scarlets that wasn't finished and led to me being stuck in dialog forever.

However, the new moathouse battle was pretty fun, unexpected and didn't seem to give any unbalancing rewards.

It could use a little stricter quality control, but it's relatively easy to avoid new areas, if I know an area is new I just leave, if I know a overpowered reward is new (cleaver) I just drop it, and NPC party members are horrible in TOEE in general due to Troika's choices so I don't have to listen to them for long.

A lot of the new content is pretty low quality, but it's not as if they're messing with perfection; Troika's balance is pretty bad too with stuff like Scather and encounter design so boring and untactical that it wastes the awesome engine most of the time, unless you're in the like 5% of all encounters that have some variety of enemies and require you to use tactics.

Ultimately, the problem with the game isn't anything the Co8 guys can fix, even as a pure tactical combat game it fails because Troika only designed a small percentage of encounters to be at all interesting.

 

[Julio]

If the cleaver you're talking about comes w/ Fruella, then that was in the original game.

 

[Mefi]

The DCs from the moathouse treasure chests are too high considering the stuff in them is not that good (was there anything unique in there or just some potions and scrolls?) Considering how early it is, you'll probably have to come back for them unless you plan specifically for those chests.

I had a fighter/theif, with 16 agility. (only one level of fighter) And I had to go all the way back into the moathouse after clearing it to be able to open them. I buffed him with the level 0 spell that gives +1, but hadn't wasted spell slots on cats grace or knock by then. Waste of time, not fun.

To be honest, the Dcs are very generic. They are standard DCs for a locked chest. I can open the one in the tower with a level 2 rogue with only the level 0 spell cast on him. Your fighter/thief was probably level 1 rogue and level 1 fighter.

Other than that, the orc cave battle is fun, but the armor it gives is very overpowered, and the new town is very beta quality, i found a dialog option with the scarlets that wasn't finished and led to me being stuck in dialog forever.

Fair points. Verbobonc is in a state of continuous upgrade. The orc armour is a tad overpowered and probably needs revisiting although it can be quite a tough fight so risk vs reward comes in here.

What's the bug with the scarlets? If ya report it, it gets fixed.

It could use a little stricter quality control, but it's relatively easy to avoid new areas, if I know an area is new I just leave, if I know a overpowered reward is new (cleaver) I just drop it, and NPC party members are horrible in TOEE in general due to Troika's choices so I don't have to listen to them for long.

The cleaver is in the game already as Julio said. re. stricter quality control. Yeah. Most of the new areas are due for major work using what has been learnt making KotB. There's been much debate about this at Co8 over the past 18 months.

Ultimately, the problem with the game isn't anything the Co8 guys can fix, even as a pure tactical combat game it fails because Troika only designed a small percentage of encounters to be at all interesting.

Troika didn't really do much work at all on the encounters. Every enemy had exactly the same script for attacking when people first started looking behind the scenes... More varied encounters is definitely something which we're working on. It's a slow process though because of the amount of testing required and people not realising that additional content isn't the same as polishing up what is already there. Still, I think KotB shows that Co8 is getting there.

 

[Gromnir]

"The cleaver is in the game already as Julio said."

one thing that troika didn't seem to grasp were that 3e levels and 1e levels don't mesh exactly. heck, there were fights in toee p&p in which you potentially had to fight multiple dragons. a 12th level 1e character, back when the T, G , D & Q modules were made, was a world conquering hero... end up going to the abyss to lolth's lair. the old rogue's gallery 1e supplement were crap, but the last 10 or so pages included characters actually played by folks like erol otus and the gygax bros. bigby and tenser and others were not +20th level in 1e. compare: in a 3e fr campaign some random guy running a suasage cart in waterdeep has probably 10 base levels and probably a couple prestige class levels as a kicker.

1007 that were appropriate for a 9th level 1e character is not same as is appropriate for a 3e character of same level. took much longer to get to 9th level in 1e than it does in 3e.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Mefi]

Troika actually put in an XP modifier for ToEE to make it more difficult to get to level 10. Think it was set at 80%.

But in general, yeah, ToEE will never be balanced perfectly. And in part, that's part of the design philosophy of not trying to railroad players down a particular path as well as the issues around the different DnD rulesets.

 

[Gromnir]

Troika actually put in an XP modifier for ToEE to make it more difficult to get to level 10. Think it was set at 80%.

doesn't really speak to the issue at hand though, does it? after all, they had a level cap too and that not gonna somehow magically makes a 10th level 1e character = a 3e 10th level character.

am understanding that troika wanted to recreate an old school d&d module, but sadly they didn't know what they were doing. return to toee by monte cook were actually a pretty nifty 3e adventure, and it were balanced with appropriate 3e cr encounters and 10075. maybe it didn't feel enough like toee for some people (though toee were a pretty crappy module... it were big though) but it were o' the old 1e modules we can recall. but difference is that monte knew what he were doing.

try recreate toee with same npcs, monsters and 1007, and keep characters capped at level 10? sure, some monsters and encounters differed in troika's version, but that were mostly for technical and resource limitation reasons. heck looks at the aforementioned dragons as examples. is a 1e adult red dragon gonna offer same challenge as a 3e adult red dragon? maybe they look similar, but the two creatures is very different in the two editions. even if everything else 'bout d&d were same from 1e to 3e, would you be able to translate that adult red dragon encounter from 1e to 3e w/o some considerable adjustments? so why translate individual weapons and loot straight across with virtual no change?

strike 1: toee were a module we had already played, so there were little mystery in troika's module. return to toee had a better approach as they took characters and locales from a familiar module, and added. before we even started playing toee we knew who were the main characters and their goals and what were some shortcuts and possible resolutions.

strike 2: toee were a crappy module to begin with. but in all fairness, many beloved 1e modules were crappy. tomb o' horrors? what a joke. is no way to reason or think your way through toh. get lucky, or die. stoopid. on the other hand, the U series were pretty darn good, but virtually nobody played. no mystery & bad source material? is a tough foundation. according to tim, troika had their pick o' any d&d 1e module, so some o' blame is on them.



strike 3: troika were largely incompetent as a dm.

...

even so, the engine were pretty nifty, and Gromnir woulda' loved to see a second troika effort... give 'em a chance to do better. sadly, troika/atari incompetence killed any possibility o' a second shot at a tb d&d squad-based tactical combat game... 'cause it were hardly worth calling an rpg... not that there is anything wrong with that. heck, maybe they spent too much effort doing bad role-play when they shoulda' just gone with their strength: tb combat.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Mefi]

doesn't really speak to the issue at hand though, does it? after all, they had a level cap too and that not gonna somehow magically makes a 10th level 1e character = a 3e 10th level character.

Well it does, because it gives some indication that the game was not balanced because an XP modifier for a level 10 cap kind of hints that there was too much XP available from the get-go.

try recreate toee with same npcs, monsters and 1007, and keep characters capped at level 10? sure, some monsters and encounters differed in troika's version, but that were mostly for technical and resource limitation reasons. heck looks at the aforementioned dragons as examples. is a 1e adult red dragon gonna offer same challenge as a 3e adult red dragon? maybe they look similar, but the two creatures is very different in the two editions. even if everything else 'bout d&d were same from 1e to 3e, would you be able to translate that adult red dragon encounter from 1e to 3e w/o some considerable adjustments? so why translate individual weapons and loot straight across with virtual no change?

Absolutely agree with you from a balance perspective but then ToEE provided an easy entry into the market for old DnD players (nostalgia) and new ones (it is brand new for them) alike.

strike 3: troika were largely incompetent as a dm.

All the early DnD modules required a fairly adequate GM if they weren't to become straight hack n slash dungeon invasions. Hence a CRPG based on them too faithfully becomes...

even so, the engine were pretty nifty, and Gromnir woulda' loved to see a second troika effort... give 'em a chance to do better. sadly, troika/atari incompetence killed any possibility o' a second shot at a tb d&d squad-based tactical combat game... 'cause it were hardly worth calling an rpg... not that there is anything wrong with that. heck, maybe they spent too much effort doing bad role-play when they shoulda' just gone with their strength: tb combat.

HA! Good Fun!

Try KotB. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Gromnir]

"All the early DnD modules required a fairly adequate GM if they weren't to become straight hack n slash dungeon invasions. Hence a CRPG based on them too faithfully becomes... "

is not a matter of being too faithful.

...

is actually kinda amusing you bring this up, 'cause Gromnir beat this issue to death pre and post release o' toee. d&d 1e modules were simply framework. as you note, all d&d 1e adventures need a competent dm to fill in the gaps. any reasonable and experienced dm KNEW that they had to fill in the gaps. as toee were being developed, Gromnir and others noted that troika better do more than simply follow the module likes some ridiculous long cake recipe.

the troika fanboys (is whippoorwill still posting) all responded en masse that O'Course troika would do more than simple barebones framework... is stoopid for Gromnir to even suggest that troika would only do minimum and no more.

POST release is a different story from troika fans. "you can't blame troika. they were completely faithful to the old module. if you don't like toee, then blame gygax..."

*snort*

is amazing how pov changed pre and post release.

maybe will try kotb... but honestly am not certain that recreate an old 1e module is the best use for this engine. this is a very robust squad-based tactical combat simulator using d&d 3e rules. rather than try for role-play recreation, might be better to compare to jagged alliance or even fo:t... sans the robots section. 'course that is simply an opinion.


HA! Good Fun!

 

[Mefi]

The idea of using the engine for another type of game is a good one but not one which I could see Co8 doing. Not as Co8 in any case.

I post as I see it about Troika. I wouldn't class myself as a 'fan' - although there is no game that they've made that I dislike. Anyone who'd argue that Troika always get things right obviously is talking nonsense though.

KotB is a very good job.

 

[Aothan]

I really loved Temple of Elemental Evil, the music and scenery in some places was very soothing. The game was enjoyable as well, the initiative turn based game play was a lot of fun.

Sadly I managed to lose on of the cds and after hearing about Co8 developments have been looing for another copy over the last year. But of course this is not the kind of game to be easily replaced.

Im not sure about bugs, didnt really come across that many directly in my travels. Besides the Elemental Planes where crashes would occur often enough. A few elemental planes were really really hard After everything else I was not expecting a new level of difficulty, although the challenge was welcome.

I found with characters that Clerics were perhaps a bit too powerful, for which reason I decided to remake my party with one instead of two. Druids were fun they had a few interesting spells and abilities. Also had a Paladin, with moderately high Charisma (14 maybe).

Looking forward to playing this game again someday, real shame other games with the same design in other settings were never made. Ravenloft would be cool.

 

[Mefi]

Sadly I managed to lose on of the cds and after hearing about Co8 developments have been looing for another copy over the last year. But of course this is not the kind of game to be easily replaced.

Amazon or bargain bins. Pick it up for a few pence these days.