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ToEE is fucking awesome bros

Cynic

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Feb 22, 2011
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I never did understand why the windowed mode didn't scale...but what's wrong with the mouse exactly? Works fine for me.
 
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Its a software mouse implementation. Its slow with a really crappy response time. And yes, acceleration is disabled and speed set to 2 or 3, not the bugged max.
 

Roguey

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Cynic said:
However, I watched an interview with Tim Cain where he said they had 18 months to build this. I think that is a mammoth achievement to be honest. Also remember that this is the same amount of time it took to create DA2...with it's already existing engine, shitty writing and reused maps/dungeons.
Also they did it with fewer than 20 people whereas DA2 had something like ~170. Though Troika didn't do it entirely from scratch, they had the Arcanum engine as a base.
 

Cynic

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Roguey said:
Cynic said:
However, I watched an interview with Tim Cain where he said they had 18 months to build this. I think that is a mammoth achievement to be honest. Also remember that this is the same amount of time it took to create DA2...with it's already existing engine, shitty writing and reused maps/dungeons.
Also they did it with fewer than 20 people whereas DA2 had something like ~170. Though Troika didn't do it entirely from scratch, they had the Arcanum engine as a base.

I heard him say this in the interview...but is it really built on top of the arcanum engine? Game looks pretty drastically different. He said he wanted to originally base it off the arcanum engine but then they decided they wanted to do 3D models etc., And yeah, the team wasn't much larger than a dozen. Pretty fucking impressive honestly.

edit: Seems like yes, it was built on top of a heavily modified version of the Arcanum engine.
 

Aothan

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Mar 16, 2008
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I think I bought a computer at the time of ToEE's release just so that I could play it. Even for only a moderately powerful computer I was fortunate and had no compatibility issues or glitches that many others reported. However the salesperson of EB games forewarned me that ToEE might not be an enjoyable game. Apparently a number of persons had returned their copy or complained because it was not the type of game they were expecting.
 

Cynic

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So bros...dual/multi classing. Have I fucked it? I haven't multi classed anyone yet, but I've waited pretty long. Everyone is at about to get to level 6. Party is: Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, Ranger. Ranger is getting a bit boring, I think Druiding him might be a cool change. Someone mentioned getting Quickdraw which seemed like a great idea. I guess I'll have to get that feat this level and wait till next level to multi. How about Sorcerer dualling the rogue and focusing on Necromancy spells or something since my other wizard is almost toally Evocation focused. Might be fun. Any suggestions?

I'm already planning my party for the next play through. I think they'll be evil clerics...there's something awesome about them...I can't quite put my finger on it but yeah...something is definitely awesome about an evil cleric.
 

JrK

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Cynic said:
So bros...dual/multi classing. Have I fucked it? I haven't multi classed anyone yet, but I've waited pretty long. Everyone is at about to get to level 6. Party is: Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, Ranger.
General rule: don't multiclass casters unless they are secondary casters. Keep a single-classed arcane and divine caster. Losing one caster level and being one spell level behind is huge. Normally multiclassing is suboptimal unless your base class gives you no specific benefits any more (3.5 paladin!) or a class gets a lot of beneficial abilities for your builds (this is called a 'dip'). Good examples of dips: fighter for armour/weapon profs + one feat. Barbarian for weapon/armour profs and one burst of rage. Few levels of rogue for evasion, skills and uncanny dodge. Cleric for domain special abilities like feats you get for free. Monk for the plethora of stuff they get, including +2 to all saves.

Ranger is getting a bit boring, I think Druiding him might be a cool change. Someone mentioned getting Quickdraw which seemed like a great idea. I guess I'll have to get that feat this level and wait till next level to multi.
What's boring about it that isn't boring about a standard fighter? Anyway since you already have a fighter you can take druid levels just fine. Quick draw is awesome in this game because it allows you to access any inventory item at no charge in the action economy. Switch weapons and a shield, no fuss. It works for those guys you want to switch between ranged and melee. Which rangers are suited for if you mix melee/archery feats.

How about Sorcerer dualling the rogue and focusing on Necromancy spells or something since my other wizard is almost totally Evocation focused. Might be fun. Any suggestions?
Might work, not using the rogue in melee a lot and his archery sucking? His skill selection will suffer though, not that skills are vital in this game. You could avoid those problems somewhat by taking a few BARD levels instead of sorcerer. Bards become more awesome the more allies you have and they won't hurt your attacking abilities. Anyway if attacking is important keep an eye on Base-Attack Bonus progression. If you want to maximize it make sure your rogue has a multiple of 4 levels. Do not MC a rogue (or a druid or cleric) at lvl1, 5, 9 etc unless it is totally necessary for your build.

One MC that always works for me is the fighter/rogue MC in any ratio. I've built tagteams of two fighter1/rogueX in the same party. Give them one fighter level for the armour and weapon profs and build them like you would any ordinary fighter. They can flank together and lay down the sneak attack, and they'll be good even without sneak attack. The skills and the extra feat is just a bonus.
 

LeStryfe79

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Goddamn, best D&D ever. I even soloed St. Cuthbert with a rogue on my only play through. I just wished it was longer, but ToEE was probably meant to be the first part of a series. I kind of made fun of this game when it first came out, but fuck if it didn't age well.

Best D&D:

1. ToEE
2. PoR
3. Sozzy
4. EotB
5. Bioqueer













Honorable mention: Heroes of the Lance
 

Cynic

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JrK said:
General rule: don't multiclass casters unless they are secondary casters. Keep a single-classed arcane and divine caster. Losing one caster level and being one spell level behind is huge. Normally multiclassing is suboptimal unless your base class gives you no specific benefits any more (3.5 paladin!) or a class gets a lot of beneficial abilities for your builds (this is called a 'dip'). Good examples of dips: fighter for armour/weapon profs + one feat. Barbarian for weapon/armour profs and one burst of rage. Few levels of rogue for evasion, skills and uncanny dodge. Cleric for domain special abilities like feats you get for free. Monk for the plethora of stuff they get, including +2 to all saves.

Yeah I wasn't going to multi my wizard or cleric.

What's boring about it that isn't boring about a standard fighter? Anyway since you already have a fighter you can take druid levels just fine. Quick draw is awesome in this game because it allows you to access any inventory item at no charge in the action economy. Switch weapons and a shield, no fuss. It works for those guys you want to switch between ranged and melee. Which rangers are suited for if you mix melee/archery feats.

It's boring because I already have a fighter. Problem is, I specialized the Ranger in archery, and he's pretty good at it. Problem is he is better with a spear. For this reason I thought, why not give him some spells as well? Does 3.5 continue the rules for Elves multiclassing as in they can continue to gain levels for all the classes rather than shutting off one and moving to another?

Might work, not using the rogue in melee a lot and his archery sucking? His skill selection will suffer though, not that skills are vital in this game. You could avoid those problems somewhat by taking a few BARD levels instead of sorcerer. Bards become more awesome the more allies you have and they won't hurt your attacking abilities. Anyway if attacking is important keep an eye on Base-Attack Bonus progression. If you want to maximize it make sure your rogue has a multiple of 4 levels. Do not MC a rogue (or a druid or cleric) at lvl1, 5, 9 etc unless it is totally necessary for your build.

I'm actually using her in melee quite a bit...but I thought for the tougher fights when she gets down to low hp perhaps it might be cool to have her hang back and throw a few magic missiles / buffs etc.,
 

Cynic

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LeStryfe79 said:
Goddamn, best D&D ever. I even soloed St. Cuthbert with a rogue on my only play through. I just wished it was longer, but ToEE was probably meant to be the first part of a series. I kind of made fun of this game when it first came out, but fuck if it didn't age well.

Best D&D:

1. ToEE
2. PoR
3. Sozzy
4. EotB
5. Bioqueer

Honorable mention: Heroes of the Lance

Yeah I am also leaning towards labeling this the best (in combat, engine and ruleset implementation at least for sure). I played some gold box games (missed PoR unfortunately) and this seems like the perfect update to those. I haven't played SOZ yet, it's interesting that you put it on the list, everyone seems to slam it. I liked NWN2, but I haven't finished the OC. I'm close. I'll probably do that and move on to MotB after I'm done with ToEE. I'm already tempted to play through this again with a completely different party though...

edit: LOL HEROES of the lance!!! That brings back some memories! I remember finding it super hard when I was young, I think I played it when I was like 6 or something.
 

LeStryfe79

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MotB has a great story and atmosphere, but the insanely fat loot and soul eater shit severely tarnishes it. SoZ is completely old school D&D in every sense, but stumbles do to the batshit engine. Also, in SoZ, my party went from lv4 to 24, making it quite long for a D&D expansion. I liked SoZ better, if only out of spite for the fact that it farts in the face of newfag game design(outside of the RTwP combat of course).

Also, SoZ music is pretty fucking awesome.

Fuck you, Volourn.
 

latexmonkeys

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
LeStryfe79 said:
MotB has a great story and atmosphere, but the insanely fat loot and soul eater shit severely tarnishes it. SoZ is completely old school D&D in every sense, but stumbles do to the batshit engine. Also, in SoZ, my party went from lv4 to 24, making it quite long for a D&D expansion. I liked SoZ better, if only out of spite for the fact that it farts in the face of newfag game design(outside of the RTwP combat of course).

Also, SoZ music is pretty fucking awesome.

Fuck you, Volourn.

Not to derail the subject from ToEE (which I'm currently playing thanks to this thread by the way), but perhaps I should give SoZ another go. I was initially turned off by the smallish dungeons in the starting area and never returned.
 

sser

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Remade my party as the old one was total garbage with its stats:

Bard (Gnome, a classic of my parties, always have one)
Ranger1/Fighter (Nordic, dragonslaying chick cause I enjoy role-playing characters)
Rogue (Half-Orc, kinda shit character)
Cleric (human, boring shit but crucial to the party)
Sorcerer

Question, if a cleric shits on a bunch of undead with his huge turning spell, do you not get experience for it? Also, the much-talked about troll/bear fight went smoothly for me. Just hacked the bear down while my Bard dodged the giant troll and cast the Laughing spell on him. We poked his body until it stopped giggling. Easy.

"Story-wise" -- is there a story? -- I have no idea what is going on. Initially I slew Lareth. Walked outside, massive army destroyed my beat-up party. Reloaded. Spared him. He took me to his secret place. Got bounced even worse. Reloaded again. Ran to that lovely tower, camped, killed Lareth, walked outside buffed and healed and rolled those assholes. Now I'm in Nulb but I literally have no idea what the fuck is going on at all.

The combat is fantastic though.
 

deuxhero

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For ToEE melee, my favorite build is

Ranger 1/barb 1/fighter 1/ranger X

Grab: Improved trip, combat expertise, combat reflexes, power attack and improved initiative. (If spiked chains weren't bugged in ToEE, I'd say get that too)

Get your caster to have extened enlarge person on you and go to town!
 

Cynic

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@sser you know how there is an evil temple? You need to go there and beat it.

That is the story pretty much! The problem is, there is a context for at least a half decent story line here. If they had had more time to give a bit of life to the people of Hommlet, perhaps instead of fetch quests, after you defeat Lareth the Temple starts spewing forth some demons and shit, and they attack the town. Maybe one of these demons takes up residency in Nulb. This would have been a chance for some meaningful C&C.

Evil: side with the demon and destroy Hommlet, later learning that more power lurks in the Temple, so venture forth to claim said power.

Good: Destroy the demon and free Hommlet, in the process destroy Nulb forever.

Neutral: Side with hommlet but do not destroy Nulb.

Chaotic: Help neither or destroy both of them :yeah:

These are simple and I just wrote that in 30 seconds, but just a little bit more effort to characterize the world would have gone a long way. There could have been some branching quests for these as well. I guess they had to stay true to the module, which I think they basically did (I never played the PnP setting). Blame Gygax and his +1 Mace for that.
 

JrK

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Cynic said:
It's boring because I already have a fighter. Problem is, I specialized the Ranger in archery, and he's pretty good at it. Problem is he is better with a spear.
Higher Str than Dex? Do you have a composite bow for his Str rating? That makes a huge difference. Because of Rapid Shot archers with composite bows can outdamage melee fighters for a while. Melee fighters can catch up due to Power Attack.

For this reason I thought, why not give him some spells as well? Does 3.5 continue the rules for Elves multiclassing as in they can continue to gain levels for all the classes rather than shutting off one and moving to another?
No 3.5 gives you the choice of one level in any class when you pick them. After that level you can choose anything. A fighter1/rogue1/barb1/cleric1/wizard1/sorcerer1/bard1 is totally possible, though probably ineffective. I believe there were special rules for monk and paladin but I'm not sure if those are 3.5 and actually implemented in ToEE.

A note about Elves (and favoured classes): Elves have wizard as a favoured class. If you multiclass with anything else than wizard, you're going to have XP penalties unless their respective levels are at most 1 level apart. Same for Dwarves (fighter), Half-Orcs (barbarian), Gnomes (bard or illusionist, not sure) and Halflings (rogue). Humans and Half-Elves have whatever their highest class is as the exclusion.

I'm actually using her in melee quite a bit...but I thought for the tougher fights when she gets down to low hp perhaps it might be cool to have her hang back and throw a few magic missiles / buffs etc.,
Then a bard can be pretty useful while not destroying her melee abilities. As noted above, keep favoured classes in mind when MCing.
 

Cynic

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@JrK thanks for the advice bro, I think I will probably leave the rogue as is, but dual the elven ranger. We'll see how it goes.

In regards to the story, or lack thereof, I think the main issue with it really is that the areas of the game seem very disconnected from one another. It's like there are a few separate locations, and then the Temple and they are almost like separate mini games in of themselves. Taking into consideration that the battle of Emiry Meadows happened only 10 years ago, there really should be more fear, hatred, pining for the temples return. Basically I think if there had been a bit more work on making this adventure stick together, it would have gone a long way. But again, I guess Gygax is the culprit.
 

Leimrey

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I know I'm going to be crucified for this, but I found ToEE a boring and absurdly easy (which, again, adds to the boring factor) pile of shit. I had zero problems blasting through hordes of shitty mobs with my sorcerer + mage party. Even the most difficult encounters (like the Hill giant and his bear companion) were blasted away by Scorching Rays and Magic Missile salvos and my Mirror Image + Stoneskin defenses ensured that I took exactly zero damage in 90% of encounters. Sure, the beginning was a bit tricky and involved some hit-and-run moments (fuck those tongue-grappling toads), but this lasted only until my mage hit level 3. Most of the combat became a triviality once both my mage and sorcerer got fireball/lightining bolt (levels 5 and 6 respectively) and that does NOT count as good encounter design in a game which is centered around combat. But that's not the worst part, shit got absolutely hilarious when I was able to clear entire rooms with a single casting of Cone of Cold and Cloudkill (levels 9/10). The Bugbear Holocaust in the 1-2 levels of the Temple was mildly amusing for some time, but then I hit the fucking level cap, which is the most retarded shit one can come up with in a D&D game. With a level cap of 10, spellcasting classes effectively got stripped of 50% of their arsenal (except bards, but who the fuck plays these gay niggers?). I never bothered to play further because there was simply no more incentive left: the story/dialogue/RP opportunities were shallow and the encounter design/difficulty/overall challenge level was a joke.

The retarded level cap, and, thus, the castrated spellcasters, is the major reason I would argue that the ToEE engine is inferior to all of the previous and future ones used in D&D games. This is because the spellcasting aspect is the most complex/enjoyable part of the D&D combat system, due to the abundance of passive and a small number of active fighter-oriented feats. I mean, choosing between Knockdown, Disarm, Feint and Whirlwind Attack doesn't sound much when you got 200+ spells in the system.

Oh, and I also cringed horribly at the cheesy "marriage/romance" quests (one in the starting village and that Gay Pirate quest which I read about on the Internet).
 

kaizoku

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Leimrey said:
I had zero problems blasting through hordes of shitty mobs with my sorcerer + mage party.
my Mirror Image + Stoneskin defenses ensured that I took exactly zero damage in 90% of encounters.
At first you were like "OMG look at me I'm super powerful with my tranny party... yupiiiii!"

Leimrey said:
The retarded level cap, and, thus, the castrated spellcasters
But then you got all emo and rage quited.


90% of RPGs have level caps and you whine about it? :thumbsup:


:M
 

Baddygoal

Educated
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<-- As you can guess from the avatar, I :love: :love: :love: TOEE.

TOEE radial menus are a billion times better than NWN's radial menus, and pretty much any other radial menu in existence.
 

Leimrey

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kaizoku said:
But then you got all emo and rage quited.
Why should I continue playing a game which has shit story, dialogues that are as dull as a pile of rocks and brings absolutely no challenge to the table?

kaizoku said:
90% of RPGs have level caps and you whine about it?
The level cap itself is not a problem, Arcanum had a level cap of 50 and I enjoyed that game from start to finish (and then some more) because it's extremely hard to reach. The problem lies in the fact that the game caps your level at fucking 10, which may be reached after approximately 60% of the game with a two character party (I imagine a solo character would hit the cap quicker). This basically strips the remaining part of the game of all character progression. Is this the mark of a good RPG? I know that the Codexers stroke their reproductive organs to low-level/low-loot shit, but the designers could've employed a system similar to the one in IWD2, where the party is granted diminishing XP gains while fighting enemies of lower level than themselves. This allows to balance encounters while still allowing character progression. But no, Troika decided to go the lazy route but they still managed to fuck up the encounter design.

Most of the enemies you meet are pure melee fighters with little to no spellcasting support. What use is an Ogre or a Hill Giant if he is easily slowed/webbed and then raped by Scorching Rays? And even when spellcasting support is available, the fuckers barely cast anything remotely useful. Where the fuck are Dispell spells and dispelling traps (like in BG2 and IWD2) to counter mage defenses and spamming of Blindness/Deafness and Silence? ToEE is a failure on so many levels it's not even funny.
 

kaizoku

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Leimrey said:
The retarded level cap, and, thus, the castrated spellcasters
Leimrey said:
brings absolutely no challenge to the table?
Can you be coherent for a second here?
I would assumed that what you called "castrated spellcasters" would pose some challenge.

Leimrey said:
The level cap itself is not a problem, Arcanum had a level cap of 50 and I enjoyed that game from start to finish (and then some more) because it's extremely hard to reach. The problem lies in the fact that the game caps your level at fucking 10, which may be reached after approximately 60% of the game with a two character party (I imagine a solo character would hit the cap quicker). This basically strips the remaining part of the game of all character progression.
Keep in mind that Troika implemented the ToEE AD&D module and tried to be faithful, so some things that could have been better stayed that way. That includes level cap and story (or lack of it).
Play ToEE with a party of 5 or 6 and stop crying.
And install Co8 modpack FFS! Level cap gets raised to 20.

Leimrey said:
low-level/low-loot shit
If that is your main concern, then why don't you go play some MMO then? Lots of levels and loot.



I agree the game is far from perfect but to call it "a boring and absurdly easy pile of shit" makes you into (*thinks of worst possible insult*) an avid xbox gamer that lives for unlocking achievements.
 

King Crispy

Too bad I have no queen.
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Strap Yourselves In
OH MY GOD DUDE TOEE WAS SOOOOOO FUCKING EASY I RAPED THE GAME WITH MY MAGE AND SORCERER ALL I HAD TO DO WAS TO MM EVERYTHING AND USE WEB AND SHIT BUT THE LEVEL CAP HIT AND I COULDNT TAKE IT ANYMORE WHY THIS IS A RSHITT RPG FUCK MAKE IT LEVEL 30 OR MORE CAP PLUS YOU SHOULD INCLUDE THE ENTIRE GREYHAW CAMPAIGN ALONG WITH THE OUT PLANES AND ORCUS AND GARY GYGAX' LIVING ROOM YOUR SO SHORT SIGHTED FUCKERS
 

Roguey

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D&D becomes worthless as a computer game system when you master spellcasters, true story. You'd have to balance around casters and put in extreme resting penalties to make it difficult, and then you alienate ~98% of your potential audience and of course Tim Cain wanted it to be completable by his party of five halfling bards.

And as I mentioned earlier in the thread it didn't help that they had very little time in the schedule for monster placement. The majority of the 18 months they spent was on the engine/implementing the rules. Most of the encounters were designed by a character modeler/texturer once he was finished with his art duties, that's how pressed for time/people they were.
 

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