TOEE - The paralympian's dungeon crawl

[Bluebottle]

Got TOEE sometime last week and, while I'm loving the dungeons, the turn-based fantasticalness and the general beauty of the art, I am facing somewhat of a quandary with the early stages of the game. Specifically - my group of so called 'heroes' seem to last about as long in combat as a 'special' school outing pushed into a lion's enclosure. I managed to get my group of pansey hippies through the 1st level simpy by repeatedly sleeping until they randomly encountered something I could actually beat (re-loading if it was too hard) and basically farming XP to get me to level 2 - but I'm fucked if I can be arsed doing that for every group I want to play through the game with.
Bearing in mind that I have pretty much zero experience with DnD (though I've picked up most of the basics from my first group and I don't think I'm making any particular faux pas with my party composition) could you provide any particular advice? Is there some easier dungeon prior to moathouse? Do I need loads of companion NPCs from Hommlet? If all else fails, is there some easier way of farming XP to get to lv.2?

 

[Jim Kata]

Yes, go to the site of the battle or whatever first. Just avoid the hill giant. Talk to the church clown.

 

[Joe Krow]

I feel your pain. A few summers ago I was obsessed with solving the game on ironman mode (no saves). I never got past the graveyard.

 

[Spazmo]

There's a whole kind of... network of quests you can do in Hommlet without any combat (beyond one goblin) to get to level 2. From there, you can check out the battleground and the deklo grove for some more XP and then you're probably ready to take the moathouse.

 

[Bluebottle]

Cheers for the advice, that should hopefully see me past the can't fight for shit phase.

There's a whole kind of... network of quests you can do in Hommlet without any combat (beyond one goblin) to get to level 2. From there, you can check out the battleground and the deklo grove for some more XP and then you're probably ready to take the moathouse.

I think I was somewhat unlucky here really. I headed up to the deklo grove pretty much straight away and got murked by the spiders (I used up all my starting ammo with 3 of my ranged party members without getting a single hit) and then tried the battlefield and ran straight into the hill giant. That kind of made me think that the Hommlet quests were going to be beyond my means. I'll remember to keep my ridiculous pointy ears pricked for something a little more possible.

 

[Crichton]

I think I was somewhat unlucky here really. I headed up to the deklo grove pretty much straight away and got murked by the spiders (I used up all my starting ammo with 3 of my ranged party members without getting a single hit)

There's your problem right there. In 3rd edition D&D, missile weapons are tinker-toys for low level magic users, trading a priest or warrior designed for melee for one designed for missile fire is just cutting your own foot off.

For vanilla ToEE, you want clerics with one handed weapons and shields (and the good domain), fighters (either with a polearm or sword and board), 1 druid (only one suit of good druid armor) and if you like watching pretty magic effects, a wizard. If you're playing with some of the later Co8 patches, you might want a rogue; I generally use a heavily armored F1/R9 with points in lockpicking, spot, search and disarm traps, fighting with a dwarven waraxe, shield and improved trip.

Some of the other classes suck more ass than others, it's hard to generalize. Sorcerers aren't quite as good as wizards, barbarians are noticeably worse than fighters at these levels. Monks and bards are just awful.

I always go directly to the moathouse after buying equipment. Just kill one frog at a time and then crunch the weedy bandits and the spider. That should get you to level 2 and you can rest in the spider's tower forever if you want to.

 

[Dark Elf]

I feel your pain. A few summers ago I was obsessed with solving the game on ironman mode (no saves). I never got past the graveyard.

I actually made it through the Moathouse, killed everything at the Graveyard save the Hill Giant, and down to the first level of the Temple where I was killed by tripping bugbears on Iron Man. Solo. With an elven cleric.

I must have been unbelievably lucky.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

The hill giant is doable at 1st level, just have your druid cast entangle and then bring him down with missile fire.

 

[Spazmo]

I once got lucky using a bard and Tasha's Hideous Uncontrollable Laughter. The whole party was getting free attacks for three or four rounds.

 

[Jim Kata]

The hill giant is doable at 1st level, just have your druid cast entangle and then bring him down with missile fire.

You can kill him at first level with melee, but it's easier just to wait til third level.

 

[kingcomrade]

One reason I can't get back into ToEE is the fedex quests that you have to do to get up to level 2, and then the grinding. It takes so long just to get started with the actual game in ToEE that I just don't feel like it.

 

[Texas Red]

Can you get the Co8 only to fix bugs instead of adding their own content? Im against all this costum stuff.

 

[Dark Elf]

Actually, with a well-composed party of five characters, the moathouse is very much doable at level 1.

 

[Sitra Achara]

Some pointers:

-It's a lot easier if you have Elmo on board.
-The Bard's Fascinate ability also works wonder in many cases (it's a semi-exploit though).
-The Entangle spell is just bugged (i.e. practically a cheat).
-Also, consider doing the Hommlet quests with only 1-3 party members (say, your main Tank, your diplomat, and maybe your healer) so they'll level up sooner, adding the other party members afterwards (use the guestbook in the inn).
-Get a raven for your wizard/sorcerer (it raises your haggle skill, and can be transfered to another party member as well). If you're having a tough time with any particular battle, buy some extra firepower from Burne.

For your second playthrough, I highly recommend the Co8 mod (www.co8.org). Adds lots of nice surprises and features though it kind of unbalances the endgame (makes most of the Temple a cakewalk due to the extra XP and loot)

 

[Texas Red]

though it kind of unbalances the endgame (makes most of the Temple a cakewalk due to the extra XP and loot)

Thats what I mean. Something always gets unbalanced. Can you or can you not get only the bug fixes?

 

[Sitra Achara]

Thats what I mean. Something always gets unbalanced. Can you or can you not get only the bug fixes?

No, at least not in the most recent version. There may be some older versions around, that have less new content, but IIRC they don't fix some new game-breaking bug that was introduced in service pack 2 or one of the new directX's or something like that.

 

[AlanC9]

For vanilla ToEE, you want clerics with one handed weapons and shields (and the good domain), fighters (either with a polearm or sword and board), 1 druid (only one suit of good druid armor) and if you like watching pretty magic effects, a wizard. If you're playing with some of the later Co8 patches, you might want a rogue; I generally use a heavily armored F1/R9 with points in lockpicking, spot, search and disarm traps, fighting with a dwarven waraxe, shield and improved trip.

I'd say absolutely have a nearly pure rogue with the Co8 patch. Livonya believed that a pure rogue was an essential part of D&D parties, and designed accordingly. (Doesn't matter if you disagree; she's vanished, and nobody else there understands her code. Though the Co8 folks can be kind of fun to provoke into an argument, if you're into that sort of thing.). I agree that armored F1/R builds are the way to go; there's no downside to an armored rogue at this level.

Bards can actually be quite effective as support characters. The spell list's good; disabling magic beats direct damage hands down, especially since so many Temple critters have bad Will saves. I'd especially recommend a bard for an evil party, since they can spontaneously cast healing, while evil clerics have to preload healing magic.

 

[Mantiis]

Get a cleric with improved turning then goto the field and turn! Easy XP and you'll level after you clear it.

 

[Norfleet]

I have positive results with stealth parties and alpha strikes. The key is to initiate battle on your own terms while still cloaked, then rearrange the initiative list so that you have an uninterrupted block with which to act, so your enemies won't move around and otherwise mess up battle lines. Sneak into flanking positions, decloak and cut loose with massive sneak attacks. A good setup will let you entirely decapitate the enemy leadership before it's even his turn, removing all the major threats before he can even move. Entering combat the haphazard way will result in a furball. This move is basically the next-best-thing to the Surprise Round that TOEE doesn't apparently have. Battles are MUCH simpler when you reduce them to I-go-you-go instead of a giant hairball of people moving around randomly. It's hard to establish a moving line of battle when your line won't move at once. I have also had positive results with phalanxes: Form a spear phalanx, then ready your attack for when they enter range: At low levels, you have only one attack anyway, so no loss from readying and taking only a single standard attack, and when they advance, you stab them, possibly knocking them over if you got that feat, and then when they get up, you stab them again, and when they advance, they get stabbed yet again. Also, you nearby phalanx-mates also stab them.

 

[hicksman]

I'm intrigued by this discussion. Sounds like its not a BG clone.

 

[Texas Red]

I'm intrigued by this discussion. Sounds like its not a BG clone.

Its much more smaller in scale. There are no huge cities, for example.

 

[Mefi]

though it kind of unbalances the endgame (makes most of the Temple a cakewalk due to the extra XP and loot)

Thats what I mean. Something always gets unbalanced. Can you or can you not get only the bug fixes?

Nope because sometimes the custom stuff is there to fix da bugs. Additionally, a lot of the early bug fix work was included in custom material and to disentangle it would be a veritable nightmare which I can't see anyone doing with most of Co8's active modders focusing on Keep on the Borderlands atm.

You can do a minimum Co8 install but that's as 'vanilla' as it gets. Most of the additional stuff is strictly according to the rules and the actual original module (exception is Shiningted's Desperate Housewives quest which does not have to be installed - that's a homage to another game...) so it's not too out of bounds. But different strokes for different folks...

As for the montyhaul and extra xp... it was a problem with the original game and a problem that Co8 has discussed at length. I personally believe it's a fundamental problem with DnD rules but, meh...

 

[Texas Red]

Yes but I hear you can level up above the 10 levels. Its sounds, well, lame considering the game has only available content for those 10 levels. Is this true?

 

[taxacaria]

Yes but I hear you can level up above the 10 levels. Its sounds, well, lame considering the game has only available content for those 10 levels. Is this true?

There is a hack somewhere to remove the level cap, but it's not required at all.
Last time I finished the game at level 8, so more than 10 levels are ridiculous and only recommended for some statistics nerds.

 

[Hazelnut]

Yes but I hear you can level up above the 10 levels. Its sounds, well, lame considering the game has only available content for those 10 levels. Is this true?

There is a hack somewhere to remove the level cap, but it's not required at all.
Last time I finished the game at level 8, so more than 10 levels are ridiculous and only recommended for some statistics nerds.

It's quite useful for small party play-throughs.