Game News Torment Kickstarter Update #46: Kevin on Sagus Cliffs and UI, Adam on Character Generation

[FeelTheRads]

I doubt the in-game character creation "phase" is going to take up much more than a tiny chunk at the start of the game. Is that really going to ruin replayability for anyone?

They're trying something new. Don't be afraid.

It's not something new. And why shouldn't I be afraid?

This will be very cool first time, interesting the second time, tedious for the third time and then a mod to fix it will show up. Same as with most extended tutorials/char creations really.

Pretty much. Infinitron is full on damage control already, but if this is a thing you have to slog through everytime then that's what it is no matter if you call it tutorial or character creation. And no, not all games have this nor do they need to have it.

To avoid it make it annoying a second time it should be at least at the level of the Mortuary.

 

[Tzaero]

Maybe it'll be shorter than Peragus.

 

[Excidium II]

First playthrough is the one that matters. I'd rather they went with something cool the first time than with some "replay friendly" thing that's banal as fuck

 

[Caconym]

you'll be given a subset of TTON’s 17 Descriptors

you can discover and unlock additional Foci later. You'll unlock the first set in the opening quarter of the game and choose your initial Focus there.

Oooh, which ones do you think will make the cut?

(The pic's from the 2014 book Character Options; there could be more since then.)

 

[VladimirK]

They're trying something new. Don't be afraid.

Oh, I'm afraid. Afraid that it wasn't new twenty years ago.

I sincerely hope that they'll use the knowledge accumulated by the game design industry since then* to pull it off better. But let's not pretend that this idea is new or that we don't know how it usually ends up.

* -- this is sarcasm BTW, but the hope is real

 

[almondblight]

First playthrough is the one that matters. I'd rather they went with something cool the first time than with some "replay friendly" thing that's banal as fuck

Dropping the player into the world and having them their stats develop as a result of the decisions they make isn't a bad idea in general. However this:

Early in the narrative, you explore several memories and, in doing so, allocate 6 additional Stat Pool points while also showing a leaning toward what Descriptor best applies to you.

Sounds like the "When you were 12, did you like to go a) tree climbing or b) rock climbing?" character creation stuff that was never good. Getting rid of character creation might be interesting. Stretching it out with a lot of padding and obfuscating the results of your choices just sounds annoying, however.

And as Infinitron pointed out, mandatory starting areas are often annoying even without this kind of stuff.

 

[Excidium II]

Sounds like the "When you were 12, did you like to go a) tree climbing or b) rock climbing?" character creation stuff that was never good.

Says you

 

[Infinitron]

That stuff was decent/interesting. What was annoying was when it incorporated randomness - ie, getting a different set of questions each time, so sometimes you actually can't create a particular build. Ultima 4-6's gypsy chargen did that.

But I wouldn't assume that this is going to be anything like that.

 

[Jaedar]

That stuff was decent/interesting. What was annoying was when it incorporated randomness - ie, getting a different set of questions each time, so sometimes you actually can't create a particular build. Ultima 4-6's gypsy chargen did that.

But I wouldn't assume that this is going to be anything like that.

They said they'd at least let you pick freely afterwards.

Although considering the general lack of depth in numenara's character system, I doubt there is a way to present it that would be met with codexian approval.

 

[almondblight]

Says you

What's the point? If you don't want to give the player control of their stats then there's no reason to waste their time on stuff like this. If you want to give them control of their stats, stuff like this just makes things more tedious and less straightforward.

It seems like the idea was that you roleplay a character and then it will give you a character with stats based upon the personality in your head. The problem is it does this in a somewhat arbitrary way ("You decided you didn't want to go to the town dance, therefore your agility sucks") and trying to roleplay a character before you are even properly in the game world means you don't have much of an attachment to the questions beyond the stats they give. Did I decide to turn over to the police my nameless best friend, who I've never heard of before and who will never show up again, and whom I know nothing about?

That's why putting it in the game and tying it together with C&C might be interesting (or hey, maybe they'll have your memory actions affect the game world), but having it simply as a prolonged character generation segment isn't that great.

 

[Trip]

That's why putting it in the game and tying it together with C&C might be interesting (or hey, maybe they'll have your memory actions affect the game world), but having it simply as a prolonged character generation segment isn't that great.

I agree with this. I'd much rather have character development options as interesting tidbits of worldbuilding that have at least some relevance later on. If, in those scripted sequences, there are Smart, Rugged and Charming options to be taken, for instance, I want each one to be an interesting piece of character/worldbuilding fluff. If T:TON aims at a more literary presentation, I don't see why it shouldn't make use of more diverse literary techniques, like internal monologue, expressing attitude through point of view itself, not only through dialogue, etc. Otherwise, character-defining situations would either have to be glossed-over cookie-cutter CYOA or they'd have to be long and involved, so you can play through them with anything resembling a true character.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

Double standards again?

Bethesdas: "Birth/Test/Shit" -> "total shit"
InXiles: "gameplay decisions guide character creation" -> "don't be afraid of something new"

The difference might be the quality, but it's the same design - instead of creating you character and play the game, you have to "play" character creation (presumably while checking some guide to know, which choice means what).

 

[Infinitron]

Double standard? Not mine, I don't really have a problem with Bethesda chargen.

 

[Copper]

Regarding memories, exploring memories was always part of the game - remember the trippy illustration? I forget if it's the memories of your immortal father figure you're exploring, or those of other castoffs, etc., but there's a very solid reason for you to have access to memories and a past that aren't your own, strictly speaking. It makes sense to frontload this mechanic into char creation / the intro sequence that lets players get a sense of the type of content they'll be interacting with. I'm assuming, based on what they've told us, that these memories will be physical gameplay locations, with actual game mechanics and not CYOA segments, although I expect a fair amount of those in dialogue-type interactions.

The Temple of Trials would have been redeemed slighly if it had incorporated this stuff - a series of challenges that each clearly asked you to invest points into stuff that made sense - do you want to sneak past the ants/slaughter them, etc, with your build being fluid until you actually start playing properly.

Another decent (although the mechanics are boring and basic) is the prison escape at the start of Fallen London, where you're choosing the story that's most interesting/appealing, and leveling up the related stat as a result.

 

[Fry]

Double standards again?

Bethesdas: "Birth/Test/Shit" -> "total shit"
InXiles: "gameplay decisions guide character creation" -> "don't be afraid of something new"

The difference might be the quality, but it's the same design - instead of creating you character and play the game, you have to "play" character creation (presumably while checking some guide to know, which choice means what).

Yeah, "new" was a bit of an exaggeration, but the difference is Bethesda's writing is mostly shit. At least when it comes to the task of making words arrange themselves in pleasing way, I have much more faith in inXile. Perhaps I'll be disappointed. Perhaps not. I'm open to the idea it can be done well.

 

[Trip]

Another decent (although the mechanics are boring and basic) is the prison escape at the start of Fallen London, where you're choosing the story that's most interesting/appealing, and leveling up the related stat as a result.

I think this should be the driving force behind this sort of character generation. The most important thing is that the options be compelling. They shouldn't immediately signpost a particular system or chargen path. (Which means, of course that the game should both be viable for all, or almost all, possible chargen options so you don't click through them mindlessly with a ready-made build in mind, and that it should provide different, but equally compelling content for all of them, at least at the start.) For example, let a Smart character have a particular set of insights about the world around them that are significantly different than other Descriptors' and interesting enough in themselves. (Maybe a Smart character by definition knows stuff about the game world that a Rugged character doesn't, and vice versa.)

 

[himmy]

The holy words of the new millennium: instant gratification!

I'll be first to admit that I need to be in a certain mood to start a new game. I usually get excited about playing a game late at night when I'm drunk or high and can't wait for it to download off Steam, just to shut it down after a few minutes, cause I don't want to deal with the pressure of creating a character that you will have with you for the next 50 hours or whatever, or going through the tedious tutorial that spends as much time on using obvious WASD/click-to-move stuff as informing you about unique mechanics that you might just miss if you don't pay attention.

Anything that is willing to experiment with that formula is great in my book, although it is a risky thing to do, if not done right.

 

[Roguey]

Since this is a narrative-based game I'm going to make characters based solely on character concepts and not "what's the most-effective" so this is a total non-issue for me.

 

[Copper]

Hopefully the Tides end up being a bit more developed than the intricacies of the PoE faction/reputation system - appealing on paper, less so in execution.