Game News Torment Kickstarter Update #5: Monte Cook Explains It All

[janjetina]

Since we definitely know that the dialogue trees are in (there really wasn't any doubt about that), it would be interesting to know how (and if) the developers plan to address certain shortcomings od previous implementations of dialogue trees. Namely, repeat sentences and dialogue tree searching with backtracking.

I'd like the dialogue trees to be dynamic and reflect the state of the game world. Being able to repeat 'What is this city?', or "Who are the Dustmen?" in PS:T was more than annoying. I think that the PC should not be allowed to repeat sentences and the player should not be able to literally backtrack up the dialogue tree, i.e. the branches that have been taken and exclusive choice nodes should be pruned. However, the pruning should not simply remove the taken branch. First, all the conversation should be logged in a journal, so that the player can access them any time. Second, when the player is at an exclusive choice (e.g. where one branch as an intelligence check, another one is bluff check the third one is intimidate check, and the fourth one is retreat, that choice should most frequently be final: no searching the tree until you hit the correct choice.

 

[tuluse]

If you make exclusive dialog branches it's just going to lead to degenerate gameplay™ where players just save before all dialogs and reload to see all branches anyways.

I mean obviously they should be used occasionally, but not as a general mechanic IMO.

 

[janjetina]

If you make exclusive dialog branches it's just going to lead to degenerate gameplay™ where players just save before all dialogs and reload to see all branches anyways.

I mean obviously they should be used occasionally, but not as a general mechanic IMO.

Let them. If someone considers load spamming fun, let them. What I don't consider fun is breaking the suspension of disbilief by a backtrack search through a dialogue tree, or being able to ask 'Sigil?' hundred times in a game?

 

[tuluse]

I thought you meant choosing option A cuts off option B, but with every single dialog node would do something like that.

I don't mind nodes only being selectable once especially if you have an auto-updated journal that records everything anyways.

 

[janjetina]

I thought you meant choosing option A cuts off option B, but with every single dialog node would do something like that.

No, only that the nodes are exclusive when appropriate (when game logic demands it).

 

[hiver]

I was thinking about something similar, maybe connected to Tides, but without any colors or signs indicating which one is which.

And then represented visually in a different form then the usual "dialogue lines in a box" ... more like dialogue pop ups Where every sentence is in its own "bubble" and those closely related get bigger and move closer to the viewer while those that are opposite or very different get smaller and fade out as you choose what to say.

of course it would all look very nice visually, the text baloons would be all nicely illustrated in TToN own style and whatnot.

 

[DwarvenFood]

Update 6: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-numenera/posts/427226

TL;DR: Colin talks about the Meres (video). George Ziets is on board. Some glimpses into post-death gameplay. New $2.75m Stretch Goal. New Stretch Goal idea forum.

Brian Mitsoda aka Vault Dweller stretch goal at 2.75 mil. Good call, Jaesun.

 

[Infinitron]

You're slow, DwarvenFood.

New thread: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...s-castoffs-labyrinth-and-brian-mitsoda.81271/

 

[Roguey]

If you make exclusive dialog branches it's just going to lead to degenerate gameplay™ where players just save before all dialogs and reload to see all branches anyways.

I mean obviously they should be used occasionally, but not as a general mechanic IMO.

Josh actually doesn't consider that degenerate. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63102-commandos-a-stealth-perspective/page-2#entry1298295

Saving/reloading to try different approaches or to attempt something you, the player, botched isn't degenerate at all. I'd say that's why save/reload is present in games. If players save/reload to perform the same action with the same level of proficiency and reasonably expect a different outcome due to RNG, I'd say that's degeneration. I don't think that's why designers put save/load in games and I don't think that's the way in which players want to engage the game.

 

[Infinitron]

If you make exclusive dialog branches it's just going to lead to degenerate gameplay™ where players just save before all dialogs and reload to see all branches anyways.

I mean obviously they should be used occasionally, but not as a general mechanic IMO.

Josh actually doesn't consider that degenerate. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63102-commandos-a-stealth-perspective/page-2#entry1298295

Saving/reloading to try different approaches or to attempt something you, the player, botched isn't degenerate at all. I'd say that's why save/reload is present in games. If players save/reload to perform the same action with the same level of proficiency and reasonably expect a different outcome due to RNG, I'd say that's degeneration. I don't think that's why designers put save/load in games and I don't think that's the way in which players want to engage the game.

Josh speaks of re-attempting something you botched. Not quite the same thing as strip-mining an entire dialogue tree.

 

[Roguey]

"Trying different approaches" doesn't necessarily mean failure especially since he includes that second.

 

[Infinitron]

"Trying different approaches" doesn't necessarily mean failure especially since he includes that second.

Meh, he's obviously speaking about combat or something else that typically has a degree of randomness involved in that quote.

Anyway, go ahead and ask him what he thinks about that. I doubt he approves of it.

 

[Roguey]

"Trying different approaches" doesn't necessarily mean failure especially since he includes that second.

Meh, he's obviously speaking about combat or something else that typically has a degree of randomness involved in that quote.

Anyway, go ahead and ask him what he thinks about that. I doubt he approves of it.

There's nothing degenerate about trying out different options, whether in dialogue or combat. As he says, that's what saving/reloading is for.

 

[Infinitron]

There's nothing degenerate about trying out different options, whether in dialogue or combat. As he says, that's what saving/reloading is for.

The phrase "trying out different options" strongly implies a small, reasonable number of options.

It doesn't imply strip-mining/exhausting all possible options. That's not a fun way to play.

In fact, I suspect Josh knows this which is why he's supportive of Alpha Protocol-esque dialogue with small numbers of meaningful choices.

 

[Roguey]

I don't ever recall encountering a dialogue in a RPG where there was massive branching. It's always a small number of final outcomes.

 

[Rake]

"Trying different approaches" doesn't necessarily mean failure especially since he includes that second.

Meh, he's obviously speaking about combat or something else that typically has a degree of randomness involved in that quote.

Anyway, go ahead and ask him what he thinks about that. I doubt he approves of it.

There's nothing degenerate about trying out different options, whether in dialogue or combat. As he says, that's what saving/reloading is for.

Josh had said that "fun" gameplay is the most importand thing. What part of reloading 6 times in each dialog constitutes "fun"?
Playing a text heavy game( like P:E promished to be) that way i would have gone nuts. Nothing wrong with repeating options in dialog.
If you realy want to go that way,make each responce to unlock an entire new dialog tree, and each responce on that another one, so there is no way to see all dialog options no matter how much reloading. That would be the ideal, but that would require 10 times Torment's wordcount. I would love a game like that, but i don't see it happening.
Maybe if someone decides to make a Torment successor with 30M$ budget( :drools: ). (and spents them all into MOAR writting)

 

[Roguey]

Josh had said that "fun" gameplay is the most importand thing. What part of reloading 6 times in each dialog constitutes "fun"?

If someone wants to check out all the branches to get the outcome they want, that sounds like it'll be enjoyable to them. Though it's important to make it clear which decisions do what so they don't feel like they have to do that.

Nothing wrong with repeating options in dialog.

It's an antiquated way of doing things that should have been improved upon a long time ago. Josh is in favor of the elimination of recursive dialogue trees, as shown in his Do (Say) The Right Thing presentation.

 

[Jasede]

Eeeeh, Josh and fun gameplay- I'll believe it when I see it. In my eyes the man has yet to prove himself.
I wish him all the best, out of sheer self-interest.

 

[Rake]

Eeeeh, Josh and fun gameplay- I'll believe it when I see it. In my eyes the man has yet to prove himself.
I wish him all the best, out of sheer self-interest.

IWD2 was fun. Other than that, no he hasn't made anything worth mentioning.
New Vegas was an improvement on the abomination that was F3, but if someone find the gameplay fun he is an idiot.

 

[mondblut]

Exactly why is sex is bad for RPGs? It didn't ruin any of the games form current Codex Top 10.

Sex is great for RPGs. It gives XP in good games. Sex cards in Twitcher were a nice addition to the theme, too.

The "bioware romance" crap, OTOH, contrary to certain virgins in this thread, is not about sex, it's all about virtual cuddling and holding hands. Ridiculous cutscenes are just a cherry on the cake, coming late to the party. Fuck this shit, and fuck the pathetic nolifers obsessed about being luuuuvd in a videogame. Why wouldn't they just go and cut themselves some more instead of sticking their ugly fat snouts into our gaming genre of choice?

 

[Roguey]

You're the idiot.

 

[evdk]

Sex is great for RPGs. It gives XP in good games.

But can you grind it?

 

[Rake]

You're the idiot.

Tell me what aspects of New Vegas gameplay you found "fun"

 

[Irxy]

Since we definitely know that the dialogue trees are in (there really wasn't any doubt about that), it would be interesting to know how (and if) the developers plan to address certain shortcomings od previous implementations of dialogue trees. Namely, repeat sentences and dialogue tree searching with backtracking.

I'd like the dialogue trees to be dynamic and reflect the state of the game world. Being able to repeat 'What is this city?', or "Who are the Dustmen?" in PS:T was more than annoying. I think that the PC should not be allowed to repeat sentences and the player should not be able to literally backtrack up the dialogue tree, i.e. the branches that have been taken and exclusive choice nodes should be pruned. However, the pruning should not simply remove the taken branch. First, all the conversation should be logged in a journal, so that the player can access them any time. Second, when the player is at an exclusive choice (e.g. where one branch as an intelligence check, another one is bluff check the third one is intimidate check, and the fourth one is retreat, that choice should most frequently be final: no searching the tree until you hit the correct choice.

I'd also like dialog progression to be more intuitive. I.e. when there is a block of 4 options 3 of which give you related info and 1 progresses dialog to next stage, it is annoying when you can't tell which option does that and you end up skipping some details.

 

[DwarvenFood]

You're slow, DwarvenFood.

New thread: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...s-castoffs-labyrinth-and-brian-mitsoda.81271/

Not that slow, we posted it the same minute;