Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[agris]

There are some areas that are between moderately and really neat, Undercity for example. The infodumping and hand-holding however continues. First thing -- literally -- you see when you get into Sagus Cliffs is a helpful greeter to helpfully offers to help you by explaining all about the city's districts and stuff, and doesn't even want to be paid. He's standing right in front of the entrance, like, specifically for you. This is really clumsy compared to PS:T's "Tout! Tout!" who you could, you know, approach and pay for general information if you want it. And the same thing is repeating itself all the time. Seems like everyone I talk to is happy to give me a dissertation about his/her/hir/its people in excruciating and irrelevant detail: if I talk to a fish-headed person I do not need to be informed that she "has temporarily chosen to be female." I don't want to fuck her (or steal her eggs for caviar) so her sex/gender and whether it's temporary or permanent is completely irrelevant, and she looks like a freakin' fish for crying out loud. It's doing that kind of thing all the time -- infodumping, spoon-feeding, and handholding.

The quest structure is really hand-holdy as well. I'm spoon-fed objectives ("Find Matkina"), and it just so happens that there are scads of people who have the information I want, but they want me to run an errand before they give it to me, and it also just so happens that these errands are all neatly tied to The Changing God and my general objectives. They're all just standing there waiting for me to show up, and their objectives inexplicably mesh perfectly with mine. That's downright cack-handed.

On the positive side, I stepped into some goo which zeroed my Might pool so I figured I'll take an extra rest, and consequently Something Bad happened while I was napping and now I'm in trouble with one of the people for whom I'm supposed to run errands. That was neat. Also there does seem to be a quite a bunch of different ways to approach probelms, which is also neat.

Soooo.... I'm digging the premise and the background, but the presentation so far is just plain bad. I don't have the space to discover or figure out stuff by myself; I'm having my nose rubbed in it all the time.

MRY CMcC

This is concerning. The player should feel as part of the world, not the center of it. In feeling like you're part of the world, your desires need to hit the wall of other people's, including the desire to be a dick and not tell you something, or charge you money for info, or to mislead or lie to you (thanks AoD).

More subtlety will go a long way.

 

[Irenaeus III]

Militiades gets the last laugh.

 

[Neanderthal]

MRY CMcC

This is concerning. The player should feel as part of the world, not the center of it. In feeling like you're part of the world, your desires need to hit the wall of other people's, including the desire to be a dick and not tell you something, or charge you money for info, or to mislead or lie to you (thanks AoD).

More subtlety will go a long way.

That does sound bad dunnit? I remember shock o meeting Creeden in Torment, first nice bloke i'd run into, course that were his segway into selling you his ratsies but it were a good way o getting info. Before that i'd either scared everyone off, intimidated, stayed the fuck away from (Abishai) or killed fuckers I approached. Sounds like they've forgotten this or everybody is oh so fucking nice in Sagus Cliffs, hope they fix.

 

[Infinitron]

Meanwhile, on Twitter:




Sorry, Codex, prepare yourself for the mainstream consensus that T:ToN is one of the best-written games of all time.

(Also lol: https://twitter.com/ColinMcComb/status/690571413326020608)

 

[Prime Junta]

Sounds like a game you white knighted - PoE. Funny.

You know what else is funny? How some of you guys are doing your damnedest to make every thread here about Pillars.

(Comparing the opening of Pillars to T:ToN might not be a completely worthless exercise by the way; Pillars does share some of the same flaws although to a much lesser extent (Urgeat's and Caldara's infodumpy forced conversations), but it also avoids a lot of them. In particular, the opening quests in Pillars flow logically from the stuff that's going down in Gilded Vale; they do not give the impression that everybody was just sitting there with their thumb in their ass until you showed up to solve all their problems. So I do think that the PS:T opening is a more relevant comparison.)

 

[Fry]

I'm not as infodump-phobic as most here, but if the goal is to make the game better through feedback, I suspect harping on the narrative structure is going to be a waste of time. Even if they agreed, reworking the entire opening act would take more time and resources than they have. Feedback I bother with is going to focus on things they can fix. Small text edits, UI fixes, optimization, bugs, etc.

 

[Irenaeus III]

Meanwhile, on Twitter:




Sorry, Codex, prepare yourself for the mainstream consensus that T:ToN is one of the best-written games of all time.

(Also lol: https://twitter.com/ColinMcComb/status/690571413326020608)

Game is a success with gay teens. Hooray can't wait to play it!

 

[Daedalos]

I personally don't have a problem with the starter areas, such as Sagus Cliffs, being pretty hand holdy to the PC, as long as it stops the further you get into the game. Most RPGs have pretty hand-holdy starter areas AND info dumps.

Though I feel it is a valid concern. Info dumps in PoE was really bad, and the exposition got in the way of a good and engaging story, and lost the player after a while.

You could argue that a story-heavy game like Torment should get a pass on heavy expository and info dumpy dialogue, compared to other RPGs, but eh

 

[Prime Junta]

Some more thoughts.

It's clear that the Changing God is kind of a big deal in Sagus Cliffs, which means that being a castoff is a big deal also. This is a very different premise than in PS:T, and one that I have zero problems with.

My problem is with the way this is presented. It's all laid out for you neatly before you even get to Sagus Cliffs, by the spectre, Callistega, and Aligern. It would be much better if instead you were allowed to stumble into Sagus Cliffs, and subsequently have people getting fainting fits, panic attacks, and bouts of religious fervor when they see you. "It's the Changing God come to punish us for our sins! No, it's a castoff! No, it's a charlatan!" etc. Then let me figure out how to deal with it.

What's not working is the way things inexplicably align with my objectives everywhere. Like, to pick another example, that book guy who scolds me for not returning a book I borrowed -- which I just happen to find like, 15 minutes later, in the Changing God's sanctuary which was supposed to be so hard to get into that even a professional explorer hadn't managed it. It's just too damn pat. There's no sense of a world existing on its own terms here.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Who the fuck is coal and on what authority does he state that the game nails the ninth world feel?

 

[Irenaeus III]

Who the fuck is coal and on what authority does he state that the game nails the ninth world feel?

Hope that helps

 

[Bubbles]

Meanwhile, on Twitter:




Sorry, Codex, prepare yourself for the mainstream consensus that T:ToN is one of the best-written games of all time.

What, because he calls it "superb"? That barely makes it better than average by today's standards. Dragon Age: Inquisition's writing was "brilliant" and "mindblowing", and it's still not considered one the best-written games of all time.

 

[veevoir]

Who the fuck is coal and on what authority does he state that the game nails the ninth world feel?

he's this guy

Ugh.

 

[Infinitron]

It's so perfect.

But seriously, as far as addressing this goes, one suspects it would be risky for inXile to start chopping up quest scripts and rewriting dialogue now. And they certainly won't do it if the Codex is the only forum saying these things. So you might want to go to the inXile forums and start rabble rousing.

Maybe the game changes later on though. Keep playing, PrimeJunta.

 

[agris]

Focus guys. Prime Junta thanks for the feedback. It would be great if more people could offer detailed information about something other than the UI and portraits. I dropped $110 on this and won't pay for beta out of principle, but I'm really curious to hear others impressions.


Or we could play into the dev-meme that we're all circle-jerking idiots and thus render our feedback invisible. Our choice. C&C!

 

[Excidium II]

Or we could play into the dev-meme that we're all circle-jerking idiots and thus render our feedback invisible. Our choice. C&C!

Codex feedback is never relevant. Games aren't made for us

 

[Fairfax]

Some of Erritis' lines (MCA's companion), in case anyone is interested:

Spoiler

"Oh, me? I'm just your normal, everyday hero. Well, not *normal*, I mean I'm the greatest hero who has ever lived! But don't tell the other heroes that. They get jealous and try to hurt me and sometimes they die."

"But my origins make it so much better, because I was just a farm boy, and now I'm the world's greatest hero. I bet you've never heard a story like *that* before."

(PC) "Wait, Erritis! Punching it might not be the best option!"
Erritis turns, scowling. "Punching is always the best option. Unless you can skewer. Skewering is even better." He smiles benevolently. "But please, tell me your other exciting options."

(PC) "Erritis, why is a passenger telling me that you threw her luggage off the cliff?"

"The Serpentess of a Thousand Kisses, yes. I almost miscounted, that would have cost me my life. Or my dignity. It might have cost my dignity."
"She had extremely sensitive lips and needles for teeth that would rotate on a belt. Only once every thousand kiss was safe, it was just a matter of knowing which one not to kiss."

(Dev notes, I think, no quotes or strings) Erritis is a hero because he believes himself to be so. The more heroic his actions, the more powerful and self-fulfilling they become.

 

[Athelas]

I thought he was writing 'The Toy'.

Or we could play into the dev-meme that we're all circle-jerking idiots and thus render our feedback invisible. Our choice. C&C!

No, that would just be the one 'C'.

Also, that ship likely sailed when we started requesting more white people to be companions.

 

[Irenaeus III]

Or we could play into the dev-meme that we're all circle-jerking idiots and thus render our feedback invisible. Our choice. C&C!

Codex feedback is never relevant. Games aren't made for us

Some of Erritis' lines (MCA's companion), in case anyone is interested:

Spoiler

"Oh, me? I'm just your normal, everyday hero. Well, not *normal*, I mean I'm the greatest hero who has ever lived! But don't tell the other heroes that. They get jealous and try to hurt me and sometimes they die."

"But my origins make it so much better, because I was just a farm boy, and now I'm the world's greatest hero. I bet you've never heard a story like *that* before."

(PC) "Wait, Erritis! Punching it might not be the best option!"
Erritis turns, scowling. "Punching is always the best option. Unless you can skewer. Skewering is even better." He smiles benevolently. "But please, tell me your other exciting options."

(PC) "Erritis, why is a passenger telling me that you threw her luggage off the cliff?"

"The Serpentess of a Thousand Kisses, yes. I almost miscounted, that would have cost me my life. Or my dignity. It might have cost my dignity."
"She had extremely sensitive lips and needles for teeth that would rotate on a belt. Only once every thousand kiss was safe, it was just a matter of knowing which one not to kiss."

(Dev notes, I think, no quotes or strings) Erritis is a hero because he believes himself to be so. The more heroic his actions, the more powerful and self-fulfilling they become.

Love it already. Good job, Chris!

 

[Fairfax]

I thought he was writing 'The Toy'.

He's writing this guy:

 

[agris]

Also, that ship likely sailed when we started requesting more white people to be companions.

*sigh* I know you're right, but I wish you weren't.

 

[Irenaeus III]

Also, that ship likely sailed when we started requesting more white people to be companions.

*sigh* I know you're right, but I wish you weren't.

You two deserve to have your brofists zeroed for advanced faggotry.

 

[Infinitron]

Ah, so MCA is writing the brown shirt guy from the old video.

There are a still a bunch of companions they've kept completely hidden until now except for their names in the code.

 

[Prime Junta]

It's so perfect.

But seriously, as far as addressing this goes, one suspects it would be risky for inXile to start chopping up quest scripts and rewriting dialogue now. And they certainly won't do it if the Codex is the only forum saying these things. So you might want to go to the inXile forums and start rabble rousing.

Maybe the game changes later on though. Keep playing, PrimeJunta.

It's not really my job as a tester to worry about whether it's feasible to act on any feedback I'm giving. They can take it, leave it, or file it as "revisit in the future" for the inevitable Director's Cut.

(And yes, I am submitting feedback through the beta's feedback function as well. Don't wanna start posting on the inXile forums as well, too much work. Also I kinda relish the irony of having my criticism dismissed as typical Codex ranting, given what much/most of the Codex thinks of me.)

 

[Irenaeus III]

Don't worry, your words are being noted by important people in the industry like me.