Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[J_C]

Jesus Christ, the Codex is on a spin again. The same thing happened with W2 and with Divinity: OS. Both had console versions, but that doesn't affected the PC version at all. Yet some of you idiots are all gloom and doom again! This happened the third time, but you still act like a retarded child.

OMG, Fargo offers a console version which doesn't affect the PC version, what a scumbag! And don't tell me that "oh, but it affects the PC, version" because it fucking doesn, you pathetic piece of shit!

WL2 and D:OS had console ports after the PC release, this time they're releasing at the same time on every platform. This means that they're devolping the game with the console crowd in mind (they've already started to dumb down the systems, in fact), and only a fool (or a very naive person) would believe that they would work on two totally different versions with no touch points between the two,

The develoment started for PC and the UI, which people can see for themselves for months now was clearly designed for m/k, so no, they don't dumb it down just for the consoles. They had a very good idea about the PC UI, and the console stuff only came into picture very recently. I don't think they will throw the PC UI out of the window right now, just because of the consoles.

 

[LESS T_T]

At least they're presenting PC version at GenCon.

 

[Lurker King]

No matter what happens, you shouldn't criticize

Only in your imagination is anyone saying this. There's plenty of thoughtful and meaningful criticism around here. Too bad it's often buried under piles of uninformed reactionary shitposting.

The game was funded under the promise of being a PC exclusive cRPG. This promise is justified because console oriented RPGs involve a series of design compromises due to the restrictions of controllers, etc. It turns out that Fargo, the snake oil salesman, was lying to backers all this time, and the game was being simultaneously developed with consoles in mind. This would be bad enough as an issue of principle if they didn’t had delayed the lunch multiple times and dumbdown the mechanics (hello health bars!) to ensure that the consoletards who never played a cRPG in their lives will be happy – and with a Torment successor at that. No, there is nothing wrong here. Players that are criticizing these decisions are reactionary. Ok. If anything, the criticisms are mild.

 

[Sacred82]

No matter what happens, you shouldn't criticize

Only in your imagination is anyone saying this. There's plenty of thoughtful and meaningful criticism around here. Too bad it's often buried under piles of uninformed reactionary shitposting.

The game was funded under the promise of being a PC exclusive cRPG. This promise is justified because console oriented RPGs involve a series of design compromises due to the restrictions of controllers, etc.

Doesn't matter anyways as consoletards demand console specific exclusives to feel justified in their purchase, too. But maybe the master race is above such tendencies

 

[Fry]

The game was funded under the promise of being a PC exclusive cRPG.

Was it? I backed the game and don't remember any such promise.

This promise is justified because console oriented RPGs involve a series of design compromises due to the restrictions of controllers, etc.

Yes, I'm assured by many Codexers who haven't touched the game that many scary compromises have been made for controllers. Still waiting for an example.

dumbdown the mechanics (hello health bars!)

Please. The well-known console CRPG innovation... health bars!

If anything, the criticisms are mild typically retarded and overblown.

Fixed.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Only in your imagination is anyone saying this.

Yeah, sure thing, that's why every time someone is saying anything you pop-up to tell us all how they're just going overboard.

It's funny how your "plz don't criticize" type NEVER has any problems with people saying the game will be great and awesome. Somehow that's not retarded and overblown.

So go fuck yourself. You know as much as anybody else. So deciding whether something is overblown or not is just an opinion that you have or maybe you simply suffer from delusions.

 

[vortex]

Marcin here explains why console release is important for devs with the PC release. Starting at 5.14.

 

[Fry]

Only in your imagination is anyone saying this.

Yeah, sure thing, that's why every time someone is saying anything you pop-up to tell us all how they're just going overboard.
It's funny how your "plz don't criticize" type NEVER has any problems with people saying the game will be great and awesome. Somehow that's not retarded and overblown.
So go fuck yourself. You know as much as anybody else. So deciding whether something is overblown or not is just an opinion that you have or maybe you simply suffer from delusions.

If you've actually been reading this thread, you'll see that I've played the beta quite a bit and I think the combat is pretty shit. Does that qualify as a ringing endorsement in your book? There's a difference between informed criticism and "Hur dur consolez! Brian Fargo is a greedy cuck!"

Or, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you've played the game and have something useful to say...?

 

[Bubbles]

The game was funded under the promise of being a PC exclusive cRPG.

Was it? I backed the game and don't remember any such promise.

Here's the relevant paragraph on the Kickstarter page:

 

[Infinitron]

Notice that it doesn't explicitly say "a later time after release"

 

[Bubbles]

Their phrasing also implies that the Mac and Linux versions are receiving more dev attention than the console versions, which is a rare thing in today's market.

 

[Coma White]

So is it safe to conjecture that some of this game's delays are attributable to the fact it's now suddenly also coming to consoles?

And is it also safe to conjecture that, due to the inclusion of a raw HP system, that it isn't actually raw Numenera rules anymore?

 

[Zombra]

So is it safe to conjecture that some of this game's delays are attributable to the fact it's now suddenly also coming to consoles?

Meh. It will doubtless add a certain amount of dev time needed, but ... I'm sure there are 1,001 reasons the schedule is sliidng. Running out to buy a new pitchfork just because of console delays would be pretty silly.

And is it also safe to conjecture that, due to the inclusion of a raw HP system, that it isn't actually raw Numenera rules anymore?

No conjecture necessary. Numenera P&P doesn't have hit points. They are modding the system and that's a cold fact.

 

[Coma White]

No conjecture necessary. Numenera P&P doesn't have hit points. They are modding the system and that's a cold fact.

What was the reasoning for this, exactly? Forgive my ignorance -- I've been avoiding this game's development as much as possible so as to not get spoiled.

 

[Infinitron]

Personally I do believe they've been dishonest about the release date, but it might be better for them to release next year rather than during Christmas when there's lots of competition. Somebody on the Codex suggested that a few months ago (that the game would simply be delayed even though it was already done - he didn't guess there would be a console release too). I was skeptical at the time, but it looks he was right.

 

[Bubbles]

No conjecture necessary. Numenera P&P doesn't have hit points. They are modding the system and that's a cold fact.

What was the reasoning for this, exactly? Forgive my ignorance -- I've been avoiding this game's development as much as possible so as to not get spoiled.

The stated reasoning is that they received feedback from testers who could not understand the Numenera system, so they converted it into a health bar instead.

 

[Infinitron]

No conjecture necessary. Numenera P&P doesn't have hit points. They are modding the system and that's a cold fact.

What was the reasoning for this, exactly? Forgive my ignorance -- I've been avoiding this game's development as much as possible so as to not get spoiled.

The stated reasoning is that they received feedback from testers who could not understand the Numenera system, so they converted it into a health bar instead.

Source? As far as I know that's something that The Game Analists made up and the stated reason is balance.

 

[Coma White]

The stated reasoning is that they received feedback from testers who could not understand the Numenera system, so they converted it into a health bar instead.

Jesus Christ don't tell me this is really the case.

 

[Zombra]

They literally and factually said they added the health pool system because idiots might end up going into encounters unprepared.

That is what casuals do. They are stupid and don't take their time or learn the mechanics, and die. Duh.

I think you may be misinterpreting what I said. The intent was not to "dumb down" the game for "casuals". It was primarily to allow us to balance combat better. Numenera is a system built for the tabletop and while it has some great elements, our goal is still ultimately to do a Torment CRPG and not a 1:1 tabletop simulation.

Without a human GM tuning each situation, stat pools doubling as health introduced a ton of variance in character builds and capability levels that made it extremely difficult to balance encounters, DTs, items, etc. across the entire game. With health we have a more consistent reference point for balancing encounters, and resource management is still an extremely important part of exploration/conversation gameplay as well as for combat abilities.

You are welcome to extrapolate what that means for the game, or discuss how that relates to the spirit of Numenera if you wish. But I just want to get it out there that accessibility to some nebulous idiotic mass audience was not a factor.

https://forums.inxile-entertainment.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=15806&p=173187#p173187

 

[Bubbles]

This quote is also helpful:

Part of the reason for the introduction of the Health bar is that we had no way of knowing how or where people had spent their Pool points, and it was entirely possible they'd go into Crises or situations where they could irretrievably fail. While we're cool with ending games for bad choices ("Why yes, I *WILL* stand and fighting this gigantic insect toe to toe!"), we didn't want to create a frustrating initial experience because of a combination of stat management and unlucky random numbers.

You can read that as "we need more balance" or "we need to dumb things down!"

He also calls it only "part of the reason" - I honestly wonder what the other parts were.

 

[Coma White]

https://forums.inxile-entertainment.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=15806&p=173187#p173187

Shouldn't they have thought about this BEFORE committing to doing an entire CRPG using the Numenera ruleset?

While we're cool with ending games for bad choices ("Why yes, I *WILL* stand and fighting this gigantic insect toe to toe!"), we didn't want to create a frustrating initial experience because of a combination of stat management and unlucky random numbers.

So they're fine with the player being punished for poor decisions, but they're also not fine with the player being punished for poor decisions. Who are these devs again?

 

[Zombra]

Shouldn't they have thought about this BEFORE committing to doing an entire CRPG using the Numenera ruleset?

I don't remember them ever saying "We're going to use the basic rulebook to the letter and we're absolutely not going to change a single line no matter what, no sir!" Please correct me if I'm wrong, honest challenge.

It's still the same basic game, with a major house rule schlacked in to make it reasonably possible to balance in a CRPG environment.

So they're fine with the player being punished for poor decisions, but they're also not fine with the player being punished for poor decisions. Who are these devs again?

Do you really not see the difference between a character build and an in-game decision?

 

[Coma White]

Do you really not see the difference between a character build and an in-game decision?

You're going to have to elaborate on this one. Do I think players should be rewarded for good decisions and punished for bad ones across the board? Yes. Do I think players should be expected to invest a certain degree in understanding a rules system before committing to big decisions (character creation for example)? Yes.

 

[Infinitron]

Eh, the entire argument is kind of missing the point anyway. What guys like The Game Analists are really mad about is that the hit points made the game less unique and special, not that it's dumber. And then there are people on the Codex, who don't really give a fuck about Numenera or know anything about it, who have piled on that because they're eager to see signs of decline everywhere. But Numenera isn't even a very good system so it's all kind of silly. Here's our review of it: http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9315

 

[Sacred82]

What guys like The Game Analists are really mad about is that the hit points made the game less unique and special, not that it's dumber.

It makes you less reluctant to spend points on Effort, so arguably it makes it dumber.