trash combat or no combat

[lukaszek]

with so many 'rough gems' being considered cult classics and endless trashing that disco gets

Spoiler

for wrong reasons

I would like to understand codex stance on mediocre combat experience

 

[Ol' Willy]

This question is similar to "would you fuck a very ugly and obese girl, or just simply jerk off"

 

[V_K]

For years, I have longed for an RPG with no combat. Having played one (The Council) and dipped my toes in two more (Disco and Titan Outpost), I now think that the old formula of RPG with avoidable combat is vastly superior. First, combat avoidance, be it through stealth, finding alternative routes, or alternative ways to take the enemies out, is a gameplay mechanic - unlike clicking through dialog choices. Second, it allows for "soft failure" where if your non-combat strategy failed, you can still try to win the combat.
Combat itself in this case can be as trash as they go for all I care. QfG-likes generally don't have very good combat, but still are great games.

 

[Krivol]

I like solution from Total Wars - if battle is trash, just auto-resolve it. Program should calculate amount of resources/HPs you would loose.

IIRC Jagged Alliance 2 had this.

 

[V_K]

I like solution from Total Wars - if battle is trash, just auto-resolve it. Program should calculate amount of resources/HPs you would loose.

IIRC Jagged Alliance 2 had this.

Lots of older RPGs too - Realms of Arkania, Uukrul. Harder to do in modern 3D though.

 

[Kruno]

I like Kingcomrade combat!

 

[CryptRat]

Instead of full combat auto-resolution I'd prefer if games with tactical combat and potentially a lot of encounters (for example because occasional encounters when travelling through the map) had an additional option to be able to resolve combat quicker via registered commands and Launch round button just like blobbers. If nothing weird happens then it's 3 clicks and 3 seconds but you still use exactly the resources you want to use and can react to something weird happening.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Falksi]

This question is similar to "would you fuck a very ugly and obese girl, or just simply jerk off"

Jerk off.

 

[V_K]

For years, I have longed for an RPG with no combat. Having played one (The Council) and dipped my toes in two more (Disco and Titan Outpost), I now think that the old formula of RPG with avoidable combat is vastly superior. First, combat avoidance, be it through stealth, finding alternative routes, or alternative ways to take the enemies out, is a gameplay mechanic - unlike clicking through dialog choices. Second, it allows for "soft failure" where if your non-combat strategy failed, you can still try to win the combat.
Combat itself in this case can be as trash as they go for all I care. QfG-likes generally don't have very good combat, but still are great games.

sounds like dragonfall really

Sort of, yes. It still relied on (easy) dialog checks a bit too much for my taste.
Something like Quest for Glory, Deus Ex, or Voidspire Tactics did it better, arguably.

 

[Lord_Potato]

If devs can't design interesting combats, they should not waste our time with lame fights.

 

[Kruno]

If devs can't design interesting combats, they should not waste our time with lame games.

ftfy

 

[Nyx]

First, combat avoidance, be it through stealth, finding alternative routes, or alternative ways to take the enemies out, is a gameplay mechanic - unlike clicking through dialog choices. Second, it allows for "soft failure" where if your non-combat strategy failed, you can still try to win the combat.

The problem with dialogue is that it isn't abstracted, if you abstracted it like combat is then RPGs wouldn't turn into VNs when you removed the combat and you could still have the same depth and fun.

All said and done I'd rather play a straight up VN than a VN with terrible combat attached that is just there to be filler. Most games don't do the sim thing where you are completely free to approach objectives however you like anyway, they are mostly about DPS and killing things efficiently.

If devs can't design interesting combats, they should not waste our time with lame games.

ftfy

Games don't need to have combat to be non-lame y'know.

 

[Kruno]

First, combat avoidance, be it through stealth, finding alternative routes, or alternative ways to take the enemies out, is a gameplay mechanic - unlike clicking through dialog choices. Second, it allows for "soft failure" where if your non-combat strategy failed, you can still try to win the combat.

The problem with dialogue is that it isn't abstracted, if you abstracted it like combat is then RPGs wouldn't turn into VNs when you removed the combat and you could still have the same depth and fun.

All said and done I'd rather play a straight up VN than a VN with terrible combat attached that is just there to be filler. Most games don't do the sim thing where you are completely free to approach objectives however you like anyway, they are mostly about DPS and killing things efficiently.

If devs can't design interesting combats, they should not waste our time with lame games.

ftfy

Games don't need to have combat to be non-lame y'know.

Aren't talking about RPGs?
I'd rather jerk off to hentai too as opposed to playing Planescape Torment, which by the way has no dragon shouts!

 

[V_K]

The problem with dialogue is that it isn't abstracted, if you abstracted it like combat is then RPGs wouldn't turn into VNs when you removed the combat and you could still have the same depth and fun.

The problem is how to do that in a way that won't end up mechanically identical to combat and thus just combat by another name.

 

[Nyx]

The problem with dialogue is that it isn't abstracted, if you abstracted it like combat is then RPGs wouldn't turn into VNs when you removed the combat and you could still have the same depth and fun.

The problem is how to do that in a way that won't end up mechanically identical to combat and thus just combat by another name.

What's wrong with combat by another name? By virtue of what it is about it would by necessity be somewhat different, even if many of the core mechanics would be similar. Don't you think it's worth exploring?

Aren't talking about RPGs?
I'd rather jerk off to hentai too as opposed to playing Planescape Torment, which by the way has no dragon shouts!

Which one doesn't have dragon shouts?

 

[octavius]

As long as trash combat is fast (like the abstract blobber combat, or IE games with party AI turned on) and there is a chance of random loot, I'm fine with trash combat. Even better if the enemies you face too is random.

What I really don't like is high random encounter frequency combined with a very slow and simplistic combat engine, like in Ultima IV.
Or fighting the excact same random (like 1/6 chance every step) trash mobs over and over and over again, like in Gateway to the Savage Frontier.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I would like to understand codex stance on mediocre combat experience

"Trash combat or no combat?"

Option C
Good Turn-Based combat with a great encounter design and a great combat system.

Adventure games with no combat are fine if well designed otherwise, but they're adventure games.

Trash combat is only acceptable when the combat is fast and fun, meaning well designed isometric or even better top down real-time combat.
And even then, i mean some easy cannon fodder (trash mobs) from time to time but interesting encounters most of the time.

 

[Nyx]

The question is identical to, would you eat shit or rather go hungry. I would go hungry.

Trash combat or more accurately Trash encounters are just bad, they add nothing whatsoever. The common argument in their defence is that trash combat helps the player feel how powerful they have become. That is a terrible argument simply because I do not need to eradicate rats to prove that my numbers have gone up or if I have more abilities. To prove that all I need to do is to use them against a challenging opponent that is present for a thematic reason in a given area.

This does beg the question if level scaling is okay though. It's easy to get OP if it isn't there, making combat a joke, but otoh if enemies get better as you do then what is the point? If you make an efficient and good character doesn't all combat then become trash if it isn't super hard?

 

[V_K]

The problem with dialogue is that it isn't abstracted, if you abstracted it like combat is then RPGs wouldn't turn into VNs when you removed the combat and you could still have the same depth and fun.

The problem is how to do that in a way that won't end up mechanically identical to combat and thus just combat by another name.

What's wrong with combat by another name? By virtue of what it is about it would by necessity be somewhat different, even if many of the core mechanics would be similar. Don't you think it's worth exploring?

Nothing wrong, but "RPG with reskinned combat" isn't the same as "RPG with no combat". The whole point of non-combat gameplay is that it plays differently from combat.

 

[Nyx]

The problem with dialogue is that it isn't abstracted, if you abstracted it like combat is then RPGs wouldn't turn into VNs when you removed the combat and you could still have the same depth and fun.

The problem is how to do that in a way that won't end up mechanically identical to combat and thus just combat by another name.

What's wrong with combat by another name? By virtue of what it is about it would by necessity be somewhat different, even if many of the core mechanics would be similar. Don't you think it's worth exploring?

Nothing wrong, but "RPG with reskinned combat" isn't the same as "RPG with no combat". The whole point of non-combat gameplay is that it plays differently from combat.

It would be different, just not totally so. If anything there are much more different states you could achieve rather than the binary kill or be killed thingy in combat-centric games for example. The approach to winning over enemies would also differ, you wouldn't have the warrior-mage-thief trio but other and very different approaches, different archetypes, different mechanics, even if you basically use dice-rolls to solve different things you attempt and achieve synergies between stuff just as in combat. I'm not sure if anyone has actually tried that in an RPG, so I don't know exactly what that would look like.

 

[V_K]

The problem with dialogue is that it isn't abstracted, if you abstracted it like combat is then RPGs wouldn't turn into VNs when you removed the combat and you could still have the same depth and fun.

The problem is how to do that in a way that won't end up mechanically identical to combat and thus just combat by another name.

What's wrong with combat by another name? By virtue of what it is about it would by necessity be somewhat different, even if many of the core mechanics would be similar. Don't you think it's worth exploring?

Nothing wrong, but "RPG with reskinned combat" isn't the same as "RPG with no combat". The whole point of non-combat gameplay is that it plays differently from combat.

It would be different, just not totally so. If anything there are much more different states you could achieve rather than the binary kill or be killed thingy in combat-centric games for example. The approach to winning over enemies would also differ, you wouldn't have the warrior-mage-thief trio but other and very different approaches, different archetypes, different mechanics, even if you basically use dice-rolls to solve different things you attempt and achieve synergies between stuff just as in combat. I'm not sure if anyone has actually tried that in an RPG, so I don't know exactly what that would look like.

Just look at matrix hacking in, well, most cyberpunk games - Shadowrun or StarCrawlers. SR:HongKong even tries to make it different from its regular combat by adding real-time stealth element. Still isn't as different as e.g. stealth in Deus Ex or solving puzzles as a magic user in Quest for Glory. Not fundamentally different.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

There's no excuse for an RPG to have bad combat. It's like a book having a bad story, why am I reading it?

 

[Goldschmidt]

A good example of a trash combat game is Icewind Dale 1. The game just sends you dozens of easily exposable skeletons, lizardmen and yeti's.

 

[V_K]

It's like a book having a bad story, why am I reading it?

- For its compositional structure and style;
- For its philosohical meitations;
- Might be a non-fiction book.