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Trials of Mana (Seiken Densetsu 3 remake)

Discussion in 'jRPG Weeaboo Discussion' started by LESS T_T, Jun 11, 2019.

  1. GhostCow ワイフハンター Patron

    GhostCow
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    People were using the denuvo token from the demo to bypass some things and play the full game after swapping some files between the full game and demo. It crashed at the credits though so no post game for those people.
     
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  2. IceyD Learned

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    Damn I generally hate Tales and loved this. No where near as clunky.
     
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  3. IceyD Learned

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    what a fucking jam

     
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  4. Yosharian Magister

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    Is this good? I never managed to get into the original.
     
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  5. pocahaunted Arcane

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    It's pretty fun, but it's not "good".

    The companion AI is downright useless and more of a burden than anything. Some mobs are cheap AF and a bore to deal with, but overall even if the combat is really basic and broken, it's fluid and responsive, which makes it fun as filler. The plot is just, as expected, terrible - it makes no sense, it's completely retarded and gets even dumber by the end, as everything the game tells you to do, somehow, ends up working against you, in really dumb ways.

    Overall it's worth it at a massive discount, if you're nostalgic about old JRPGs and if you're keen on playing an action RPG with updated and pleasant graphics. It stays pretty true to the original, without much faffing around - it's almost a dungeon simulator, really.
     
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  6. Lord of Riva Prophet Patron

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    Nah, don't listen to him.

    The game is good. You just have to go in with the mindset that this is a game for children from the 90s, design wise. It is very enjoyable if you are able to do that.

    The Braindead AI is the worst of the issues the game has. Everything else is, while not overly deep, very enjoyable, including the cheesy whimsical story. I do not regret Full price in the least.

    You may want to get it for switch though to avoid denuvo/have a hard copy for the post apocalypse
     
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  7. pocahaunted Arcane

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    How does that make the game good? As per your own words, the game is good if you ignore a bunch of caveats and are inclined towards something very specific. Yeah, a sign of a good game, for sure.

    Plus, I pretty much said the same thing - if it's what you're looking for, it's going to be fun. Looking at other games, comparatively speaking, you have much better ways to spend your money, though.
     
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  8. Lord of Riva Prophet Patron

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    Ahh, but i just don't agree that a lot of these things are caveats. There is nothing wrong with game design from the 90s and i see no reason why a simple and whimsical story is something "bad".

    If you expect PST than yes you will be disappointed for sure, but in general this is a really good and fun experience.
     
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  9. Yosharian Magister

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    You say that it is a game for children, but we are talking about a genre that produced Chrono Trigger. A game can be designed for children and also be a timeless classic that offers much to adults.

    I don't lower my expectations when I play an RPG just because it was 'designed for children', no matter what era it was made in.
     
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  10. Lord of Riva Prophet Patron

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    Neither would I, not sure how you understood it that way. Clearly though the focus of game designs has been shifted since the nineties, that the game is as "cute" as it is, is related to the fact that back then games like this were designed for children.

    That is, i would argue, the case for Chrono trigger as well. It has a darker and interesting story but it is still quite whimsical when it comes to enemy design for example.

    Long story short, the game is good is what I am saying. Apart from the AI there are no "issues" with the game. I am of the opinion that you can purchase it full price, right now, without any regret.
     
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  11. aweigh Arcane

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    I hope not! I prefer my RPGs to have gameplay.
     
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  12. pocahaunted Arcane

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    It's not due to the game design being from the 90s that the game is from being "good", neither due to the story being simple or whimsical. I'm not willing to go into spoilers, but the story is plain retarded and makes absolutely no sense, there's no nuance, the characters are cardboard cutout turds and that's definitely a point where the game doesn't shine. I played a bunch of Final Fantasy as a kid, and while those stories have aged like milk, they were at least somewhat interesting. Playing this, as a kid, wouldn't have made me think the story is even worth paying attention to, either.

    How aren't these caveats? The only thing that makes this game worth playing is the fun, responsive combat, which is quite flawed and has absolutely no depth - the music and sound effects are fine, and the updated graphics are simple and bare bones, but well done and cute, though you obviously need to be able to stomach the animu styling. Dungeons aren't particularly interesting, though they offer some exploration potential that isn't very common in modern JRPGs. Scenarios are often bland, NPCs are all copy pasta, item progression might as well not exist, since it's just pay cash to upgrade base stats in a linear fashion (armor gets you more defense, weapons get you more damage). And the list goes on.

    I don't expect PST, but claiming the game is good because it's for kids is absolutely ridiculous. Even if it was an excellent game for kids (which it isn't), that doesn't make it a good game, but rather a niche game that some people might particularly enjoy.
     
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  13. Lord of Riva Prophet Patron

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    Which is why i haven't said that it is. I said, the Story was made for children and young teenagers, therefore the focus is on this group e.g. It is not a worse story just because it's lighthearted. All of the characters reason to begin there journey is based on them "growing up", 3 of them deal with family issues. Another one is the "i Am weak and have to grow" stereotype and the last two have at least a real invasion going for them needing them to seek help. That exactly fits the bill of it being for young people.

    Now, i fail to see where the rest of the story is illogical, it is a pretty classic story about becoming heroes in the face of evil. In fact i would argue that compared to what else existed the story is way more advanced. There are three Factions trying to reach the
    Plot device item with their own, opposing agendas. Compare that to it's predecessor or games like Estpolis denki which have a way more classical story. The games story also changes depending on your heroes selection, while the biggest changes happen towards the end the whole story references your choice.

    Bland scenarios, i do not understand unless you give me an example. Neither how NPCs are copy paste unless you talk about their visuals and one-liners, as these have been extremely faithfully recreated and while, looking at it from a modern perspective is quite bad it is faithful to the original. And literally none of the games of that era were much better in that regard.

    If you are talking about the NPCs from the enemy factions though i fail to see how this is the case, they are quite clearly all different and have different reasons for doing what they do. That they aren't great examples of moral ambiguity may be true but that is par for the course for a "good vs. evil".

    EDIT: Also While the item progression is not great as they are indeed just straight upgrades, this has always been managed by the abilities and classes. Which have been greatly expanded upon (with the ability/chain ability) in the remake.
     
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  14. Grampy_Bone Arcane

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    The story provides a perfectly fine reason to kill stuff and level up. Not everything has to be some transcendental triumph of the human condition.
     
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  15. IceyD Learned

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    The AI is bad, the "story" shallow, the cutscenes low budget. It's also cleanly designed, has a great UI, responsive controls, and wonderful use of color and music throughout (honestly it trumps DQXI for me). Boss fights had some great designs even if you end up soloing them most the time lol.

    I think it's the nicest surprise this year tbh. And I don't have an ounce of nostalgia to reference to either.

    The nice thing about "bad" writing in games like Trials of Mana is that it's clearly not trying to overstay its welcome. Whereas you try to play a game like Bravely Default which has an equally absurd power ranger style of writing, yet it's up its own ass and in your face every minute as if it's worthwhile.
     
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  16. pocahaunted Arcane

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    This is essentially what you claimed. While the wording might not straight up say it, that's what is being inferred.

    The starting point of the plot isn't particularly bad, it's just very mundane, which could be fine if the writing wasn't so repetitive. What I was referring to, however, is how it develops. Every plot device is dumb and exists just for the sake of advancing the plot - this isn't particularly interesting. Character motivations, on the side of the antagonists, aren't exactly outstanding, either.

    As for the bland scenarios, most dungeons have one tile set and that's it. Scenery is blatantly copy pasted and dungeons are very basic - with only three dungeons standing out for being having a more intricate design, requiring the player to operate switches and explore in a less linear fashion to advance.

    The fact that the original had copy-paste NPCs doesn't mean it should've been carried over - it feels cheap and detracts from the experience. Doesn't make the game bad, but it detracts from the experience, which adds up with the other points. While enemy variety is fairly OK, with only a few reskin jobs, you either have completely useless enemies, or broken ones, not exactly nice. There are also repeat boss fights, which, frankly, adds nothing.

    I do like the skill system, overall, but it's definitely noticeable how useless and pointless items are. Again, nothing about this game is terrible, but it's also not good, unless you have a very particular taste and ability to stomach certain tropes, which is what I started out by saying.
     
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  17. Lord of Riva Prophet Patron

    Lord of Riva
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    It is what you interpreted, not what I meant. This may be due to a language barrier on my part but honestly i have no control over what someone else reads into my statements, therefore I am moving forward on this issue now.

    You try to claim that there are objective reasons here, but there aren't. I see you aren't impressed by the game, that is absolutely fine but the other user asked if the game should be bought and i simply disagreed with you, to make this clear:
    I do not think the writing is repetitive (in fact i am not even sure what thats supposed to be), the plot devices are as stupid as any plot device is, the "one ring" isn't really better than the "mana sword".

    I really like what they did to the dungeons, they have been streamlined and made coherent and vastly improved the quantity of scenery in the game, in the original dungeons literally copied the same room layout over and over. You have to realise that they tried to be as close to the original as possible in the remake, which when we compare them with other remakes lately released was masterfully done and I am thankful that they did not try to "improve" it.

    I think they should have done exactly what they have done, the amount of work put in to transfer the SNES sprites into 3D is absolutely Incline and should be commended. Enemy placement and skills aren't really up for debate, they could have either translated it from SNES to this or changed them and I for one am happy that they stuck to the original, that pertains to the story (and therefore also the repeat boss fights) removing/changing them would have meant changing what the original provided, which would have lead to understandable backlash from those wanting a close remake.

    I do think we have debated this fully now: You do not like the game "as much" as i do for specific reasons, reasons that i actually like. When it comes to recommending the game, it is clear that we are in disagreement, and that is what i did, simply disagreeing with your statement regarding the quality of the game.
     
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  18. Yosharian Magister

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    That's what I understood from your post as well, so I don't think the fault for lack of understanding lies with Pocahaunted
     
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  19. Lord of Riva Prophet Patron

    Lord of Riva
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    which quantity of people has to be reached until something is objectively true again? The answer is actually irrelevant as by now the misunderstanding should be solved.
     
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  20. pocahaunted Arcane

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    Your whole argument revolves around "it was like this in the old game", "it's lighthearted and for kids". You didn't just disagree with me on whether the game should be bought, or not. Apparently you believe that game is an unconditional buy at this price point, whereas I believe that the game is worth purchasing given two different scenarios - a) being a massive fan of this type of game; b) the price is heavily discounted.

    I've laid down my criticism regarding why I believe that the game isn't good - some, I do believe, actually make the game not worth the price point, quite objectively, really, such as the copy paste scenery, extremely limited range of animations where characters have essentially two or three types of reactions with the exact same choreography throughout the whole game, copy paste bosses, limited and pointless item progression, unbalanced combat, the worst AI possible for this type of game, basic and uninspired plot, bad writing - just how many times do they have to repeat sword of Mana, Benevedons or whatever the fuck, anyway? Characters have backstories, but absolutely no personality, they're essentially puppets to plot devices. How are the plot devices stupid as any other plot device? That statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever - just look back at the scene where the one NPC has to be rescued, that whole segment is absolutely nonsensical.

    Everything is up to debate - claiming that sticking true to the original makes this a good game is not an argument - was the original even a good game? I don't know. Does that make the game worth buying, at this price point? Absolutely fucking not.

    We can obviously agree to disagree, which is fine, but I'm just trying to make it clear for others that the game isn't, objectively, good.
     
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  21. aweigh Arcane

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    oh noes this jrpg isn't like planetscape tournament that means it's shit :( :( :( :(
     
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  22. pocahaunted Arcane

    pocahaunted
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    Maybe learn to read first, mate.
     
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  23. Hyperion Arcane

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    All you did was cry about the story, and everyone knows storyfaggots get the gas. The story exists for one reason and one reason only - to provide the characters and thus, the player, an impetus to venture forth and kill shit. Sure, a cool plot can elevate a game to a higher level, but a game with a plot and no substance to its systems isn't a game.

    However, is it a fantastic game? Not by any means. Is it better than every Tales of game that gets vomited out on a yearly basis? Abso-fucking-lutely, because you aren't forced to sit through animu cutscenes and extensive conversations for 15 minutes at a time. Unlike Tales of, there's an actual benefit to controlling someone besides the MC by force casting of buffs, class strikes etc. Also unlike Tales of, character customization exists until the final few hours of postgame when you can max out most things, as is usually the case. More importantly, party customizatiom is also a concept since you can only choose 3 of the 6 characters at the start with no switching. You're never taken out of the action for more than 3-5 minutes at most. When games take you away from the gameplay for a significant period of time, that's a huge detriment to its playability and replayability. Skippable cutscenes are awesome.

    That being said, unless you're a fan of the series or original release I'd say it's not worth above $30 or $35 if you feel there's some risk in your purchase simply because the game is a bit too easy. Hopefully they add Legend of Mana's No Future / Nightmare modes as Free DLC's somewhere down the line. Seems like it would take 1 dude 20 minutes to set that up.
     
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  24. pocahaunted Arcane

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    All I did was cry about the story? Another one that can't read. Brilliant.

    I didn't even claim that this is worse than the utter shite that are Tales of x/RPG Fifa, plus what's the point of such an inane comparison? Is a dumpster better than a dumpster fire? Sure, does that make it good? No. Not that this game is that bad, it's just, as I said repeatedly not worth the current price point.

    And you even finish on the same note as I did - oh, boy. Reading sure is hard.
     
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  25. Hyperion Arcane

    Hyperion
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    Storyfaggotry
    Wrong. The AI isn't great but not mercilessly retarded like the incessant whining would have ypu believe. Learn to set up your characters properly and they won't suck. It's usually bad players who whine the most. Funny, that.

    It's called boss rush.

    It's a given in pretty much any RPG not called SaGa.
    All storyfaggotry.

    I'm not scrolling back through 3 pages of back and forth of nonsense between you and Pumpkinhead, but from your response you've been reiterating the same bullshit the entire time. So your gripes are storyfaggotry nonsense, and shallow complaints of gear not providing enough secondary effects when there's an entire skill section that opens up further and further as you go along.

    Squeenix overcharges for games. News at 11.
     
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