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Turn-based combat is not fun

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by JoonaAhonen, Sep 1, 2020.

  1. Darth Canoli Magister

    Darth Canoli
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    Reality is neither in real-time nor turn-based, it's both of them and every system you can think of.
    You can play rugby, which is "real-time" or you can play chess which is "Turn-Based" or even some games we can consider to be RTwP but i don't know their english name and i'm too lazy to look it up (basically any game where you can freeze the players at will).

    They're different systems, way different and even if the real life analogy isn't very good, we can see that whatever not numeric "real-time" game you can come up with, it will be way more sophisticated than his dumb down computer version.

    On the other hand, a Turn-Based system is easier to emulate on a computer.
    This is probably one of the reasons TB cRPG are way superior than RT and RTwP ones.
     
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  2. Mastermind Cognito Elite Material Patron Bethestard

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    Playing a turn based game in a real time environment doesn't make the environment turn based.

    This is a non-issue with modern frame rates.

    They're not. The best tactical RPG is Guild Wars. No TB game comes even remotely close because Guild Wars takes full advantage of its real time environment whereas most TB games don't even try (sole exception are blobbers, a genre that is p much dead outside of Japan).

    Meanwhile, the fact that Fallout, a game that is mediocre in every possible way routinely breaks the top 3 on TB stronghold rpgcodex tells you all there is to know about the actual quality of turn based RPGs. Admittedly, most RPGs don't do a good job with combat to begin with but making a game turn based seems to be an excuse to phone it in far more often than it gets taken advantage of to make good combat.
     
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  3. Ol' Willy Arcane Zionist Agent

    Ol' Willy
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    Because speed is the most important aspect of RPGs, of course. We play RPGs only for this non-stop, thrilling and exhilarating high-speed action.
     
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  4. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    octavius
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    Something tells me Ol' Willy is no stranger to Speed.
     
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  5. Darkzone Arcane

    Darkzone
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    YYeah make this statement again if you face off with a party of 6 a large horde of 100 in a TB game.

    But he speaks like he wants to be a hippy.
     
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  6. Ol' Willy Arcane Zionist Agent

    Ol' Willy
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    Yesterday I was killing the Beast in Foundry: seven waves with fifty bladelings in total and three allies. Awesome fight it was.

    You mean two times more fun?
     
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  7. Psquit Arcane

    Psquit
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    I'll say that TB is the way to go. How many good RTWP rpgs came out this year? Even if the number is above the Tb games, its always the same tiresome formula.

    You play one rtwp crpg, you played almost all of them. At least the jrpgs exit their comfort zone to make something new.
     
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  8. Mastermind Cognito Elite Material Patron Bethestard

    Mastermind
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    There's actually very few RTWP games being made.

    Dungeon Siege, Baldur's Gate, Pillars of Eternity and Tyranny have almost nothing in common other than being rtwp (and the last two using the same engine). even the IE RPGs which all use the same engine and same basic system are very different games.
     
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  9. Darkzone Arcane

    Darkzone
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    What are you talking about? There is one beast and several bladelings ( 3 or 5) and there are also other encounters with bladelings, but not single one encounter where you have to wait until 100 enemies have concluded their turn. Think about what this means if you can kill 2 enemies in a round and you have 100 to fight in one encounter.
     
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  10. Ol' Willy Arcane Zionist Agent

    Ol' Willy
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    So you played on Easy, got it.

    Also, most TB games have adjustable speeds, so even a shitton of enemies can finish their moves rather quickly.
     
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  11. RNGsus fed up taxi driver Patron

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    You don't have a game without turns.
     
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  12. Darkzone Arcane

    Darkzone
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    To be honest i haven't played Underrail at all (besides the installation and try out this and that) despite owning it. Sometimes games have a certain something that puts me off even if i cannot put my finger on it, but that does not mean that i think that they are not good games.
    Therefore i haven skimmed through 3 videos on youtube to confirm the amount of enemies. If you say that there are more enemies on hard then i believe you. And it would be nice if you could tell me how many there are on hard so that i can make myself a better picture.
     
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  13. mondblut Arcane

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    Dominions didn't switch from TB to RT. Dominions switched from IGOUGO to every unit having individual initiative to do a single action such as making one step before passing the turn to another. They still don't act simultaneously.

    Not to mention that you aren't controlling the units to begin with, so the mechanics behind their actions are entirely moot.
     
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  14. Something Else Educated

    Something Else
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    Combat is highly overrated in RPGs, it's just a treadmill with rising numbers. It's not like in other genres where the player actually becomes all that better at something. The fun comes from making builds and you only do that at the start of the game and then progress toward either a sucky character or a cheesy OP one. This is why writing is more important than gameplay, if you can't beat that chad spider boss then you have probably fucked up back at character creation. Ide Quest is the penultimate RPG.
     
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  15. Ol' Willy Arcane Zionist Agent

    Ol' Willy
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    I told you: on Dominating there's 49 bladelings coming in waves. Each wave is bigger than the previous one.

    And while maybe it is true that fighting 6 vs 100 is not too much fun, I have never encountered such situation. Where can I get some?
     
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  16. Darth Canoli Magister

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    Might & Magic VI in some areas.
    Some early M&M i didn't play (I & II) would pit your party against a lot of enemies too, i believe.
     
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  17. Artyoan Savant

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    If you couldn't enjoy the massacre of the Gong skeletons in MM6 you would have to be dead inside.
     
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  18. jackofshadows Savant

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    Sure but that's actually a bad example because NWC wizards made skeletons move simultaniously in TB mode if they couldn't attack. Not to mention that game already has RT-mode...
     
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  19. mondblut Arcane

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    Last edited: Sep 4, 2020
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  20. EldarEldrad Learned

    EldarEldrad
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    Discussing something on 'Dex is actually turn-based combat.

    END TURN
     
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  21. Alexandros Arcane

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    So this is what it has come to.
     
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  22. Goldschmidt Learned

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    That is why there is a secret passageway nearby. To draw them in one by one.
     
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  23. Crispy I'm trying to improve my attitude. Undisputed Queen of Faggotry

    Crispy
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    One thing I've never done even a single time in any real-time based RPG is to sit there and exclaim, "Nice shot!" as my fighter lands a perfectly-timed and desperately needed critical blow against that one last enemy who was capable of finishing off my party after a particularly difficult and gnarly fight that would require a reload and another hour of my time had it not occurred.

    I can't even enumerate the number of times that has happened in a good turn-based RPG.

    Checkmate.
     
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  24. Darkzone Arcane

    Darkzone
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    Mea culpa for not being very explicit. It is obvious that you do not come from the engineering or science department, because if someone asks you for the numbers then you should try to answer as precise AND necessary as it is possible. What in this case would be:
    1) 3 waves and each wave with 16 Bladelings and plus the beast in the last wave ((2x16)+(16+1) = 49). (Assumption from A=(3 waves) AND B=(49 enemies)).
    2) Or it could be also with progressively increased enemy numbers, like 1x8 + 1x16 + 1x25, which wields a different result from the previous equal distribution.

    Now the old Gauss comes in with a formula that he has developed as he was a 9 year old child: (n/2)*(n+1), n is element of N={0,1,2....}.
    This formula allows us to calculate a sum of natural numbers from 0 to n with an increment of 1. Since we need also a modification for the killed enemies per round we have to change the formula to introduce a second variable. Let's call it shin for "Omae wa mou shinde iru". And naturally by killing an higher number than one the enemies we reduces the result of enemy turns by dividing the rounds count by this shin number. So this formula looks like: ceiling(rounding up)((n/(shin*2))*(n+shin)) for shin <= n. This formula works with a +- 1 error for the sum of enemy turns on many of the occasions that do not wield a rest of 0 on a "n mod shin" operation. And while we could make a exact formula in all cases, we would make it more complex, therefore let us stay with it for the sake of simplicity since the error is not really significant and shin value of 2 delivers always the right sum.
    Now let us do some counting of the enemy turns:
    16 enemies with a shin rate of 2 (per round) equals 72 enemy turns till the wave is resolved. 17 enemies with a shin rate of 2 are 81 enemy turns. 2x16 (2x72) + 17 (81) enemies make 225 enemy turns for the entire combat.
    49 enemies (in one wave) with shin(2) result in 625 enemy turns which are 400 enemy turns more than 49 enemies divided in three waves. (Now you should recognise why i asked you for the explicit numbers and you should understand why the attack follows in 3 waves instead of just one.)
    100 enemies with a shin rate of 2 result in 2550 enemy turns and that is over 4 times as many enemy turns as 49 enemies in one wave and over 11 times as long as 49 enemies in 3 waves.
    So by doubling the amount of enemies that are concurrent in one wave you are quadrupling the amount of enemies turns in that wave, due the n^2 in ceiling(((n^2)+(n*shin))/2+shin).
    If an single enemy turn lasts for 3 seconds, due to camera movement and etc, than the first round lasts in a 3 wave encounter around 48 seconds, while a in a one wave encounter it lasts 147 seconds. 100 enemies in one wave encounter result in an 300 second enounter or plainly said 5 minutes player inactivit followed by 1 minute player decisions which are followed again by 294 seconds of player inactivity. And now think what happens if you lose 1 of your important characters in the last third of a 100 enemy one wave battle. Naturally what here is excluded are other factors that can prolong or shorten the amount of enemy turns, like initiative or approach duration of the combatant groups.
    Think carefully about it, because what i have given here to you is the start to understand TB combat and its organisation on an very abstract level. And the developer (have forgotten his codex name) of Underrail understands this also, at least in this given case.

    Large enemy groups with TB combat are in Goldbox games, like in Pool of Radiance( Sokal Keep 31+15+4 enemies ), Secrete of the Silver Blades (a Rakshasa battle) or Dark Sun: Shattered Lands (the last battle but it is also ordered in waves).
    This combat encounters are naturally manageable due to mass killing with spells and etc.

    Fun with the normal (Gauss) distribution follows in a subsequent lecture so tune in again.
    For a retard with a hammer everything looks like a fucking nail and nothing like a screw. Therefore always remember: love with your heart, but use your head for everything else!
    So you could use your forehead to drive nails into concrete walls or defend yourself against attacking goats. But i discourage it!
     
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