Preview UGO posts a hands on Harbinger preview

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Harbinger

<A href="http://www.ugo.com/">UGO</a> has posted a <a href="http://www.ugo.com/channels/games/features/harbinger/preview.asp">preview</a> of <A href="http://www.harbingergame.com">Harbinger</a>, based on a beta build of the title. Here's the intro:
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<blockquote>The idea of the hack-and-slash RPG is to strip down an ordinarily overwhelming system of stats and averages so that it is accessible those who wouldn't know a twelve-sided die if it hit them in the junk. The player doesn't have to calculate attack probability ratios and armor piercing levels, as the game does all these computations on the fly. What you're left with are games like Diablo and Dungeon Siege, which, while possessed of a deep RPG system, are able to appeal to the masses by removing the math, thereby leaving the player with fast, unrelenting action. But with that said, the hack-and-slash RPG has remained notoriously orc, elf, cleric and barbarian-ridden (the majority of them revolving around a medieval or Tolkien-esque fantasy universe), which is sure to alienate those looking for a break from all things D&D. But wait! It seems that one game has stepped out of the mold to put a new spin on hacking and slashing. Enter Harbinger, a hack-and-blast RPG, sci-fi style. </blockquote>
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The sad part is that you can still actually have a complex system underneath the hood and the player doesn't have to know about it. Really, though, a CRPG without a decent character system is like an RTS without resource management, it's just not.
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Spotted this at <a href="http://www.homelanfed.com">HomeLAN Fed</a>.

 

[Jed]

The player doesn't have to calculate attack probability ratios and armor piercing levels, as the game does all these computations on the fly. What you're left with are games like Diablo and Dungeon Siege, which, while possessed of a deep RPG system, are able to appeal to the masses by removing the math, thereby leaving the player with fast, unrelenting action.

God forbid anyone have to do any fucking math! Maybe I'm getting old, but what are they teaching the youth in schools these days?

J

 

[Sol Invictus]

I won't attack Diablo (I loved it) but this sentence really takes the shitcake:

...Dungeon Siege, which, while possessed of a deep RPG system, are able to appeal to the masses by removing the math, thereby leaving the player with fast, unrelenting action.

What. The. Fuck.

As for Diablo, it didn't have a deep RPG system, either. I just wish these blokes would read wha they write.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

God forbid anyone have to do any fucking math! Maybe I'm getting old, but what are they teaching the youth in schools these days?

The irony is that you don't have to do math in ANY CRPG, despite the complexity of the system. The computer handles all the calculations, not the player. Basically, this argument is total bullshit.

 

[Spazmo]

Diablo's system wasn't so much deep as it was complicated. When you look at how it works, you can tell that this is one of the rare CRPGs that seems aware that it is a CRPG and that puny humans don't need to calculate this stuff.

 

[Jed]

God forbid anyone have to do any fucking math! Maybe I'm getting old, but what are they teaching the youth in schools these days?

The irony is that you don't have to do math in ANY CRPG, despite the complexity of the system. The computer handles all the calculations, not the player. Basically, this argument is total bullshit.

The indutry's perception:
Player: Le'see here, 86% percent chance to make the head shot...uh, carry the one...add the hypoteneuse...something about a quadratic equation...FUCK! I just can't stand TB! I need a game engine that does all the playing for me, one that I can just sit back and referree, occasionally direct things a little bit...some sort of infinity engine...

 

[triCritical]

I'm Barbie, I don't like to do math.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Diablo's system wasn't so much deep as it was complicated. When you look at how it works, you can tell that this is one of the rare CRPGs that seems aware that it is a CRPG and that puny humans don't need to calculate this stuff.

Which is the irony of his statement. Diablo 2 actually is fairly complex in terms of skills, attributes, and the interaction of items on gameplay. If you want to cruise Hell difficulty, you're not going to do it without some statistical planning.

 

[Section8]

I must admit, the simple arithmetic of D&D can strain the brain. I mean, how the hell am I supposed to do multiplication of number up to 4x? Or add things together? What's with this character sheet? You mean I need to be able to read? Fuck that.

And that's P&P. The advantage of CRPGs is that they can handle much more complex systems, and they can do it under the hood. The player doesn't have to care about how something is derived, as long as there's some basic understanding, such as Higher strength, more melee damage. All the player has to be able to do is have a basic understanding of the relationship between the stats they can modify and the gameplay.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I must admit, the simple arithmetic of D&D can strain the brain. I mean, how the hell am I supposed to do multiplication of number up to 4x? Or add things together? What's with this character sheet? You mean I need to be able to read? Fuck that.

Yeah, D&D is pretty damned simple. Fasa's PnP RPGs were pretty simple too, using only two six siders, IIRC. Some systems just use 10 sided die to determine everything.

But yeah, anyone with even a third grade level math skill should be able to play PnP RPGs, since you should be able to multiply small numbers and add things by then.

And that's P&P. The advantage of CRPGs is that they can handle much more complex systems, and they can do it under the hood. The player doesn't have to care about how something is derived, as long as there's some basic understanding, such as Higher strength, more melee damage. All the player has to be able to do is have a basic understanding of the relationship between the stats they can modify and the gameplay.

Right, with CRPGs like Fallout, all that fancy math stuff is under the hood, really. All you really need to play Fallout is to know what a percentage is and the order of numbers. If a weapon does 12-25 damage, and you find a new one that's 10-35 damage, you should be able to figure out the new weapon is better.

Some CRPGs don't even give you that much information, so it's hard to justify that you need to do any math at all.

 

[Elwro]

Yeah, D&D is pretty damned simple. Fasa's PnP RPGs were pretty simple too, using only two six siders, IIRC.

Well, Shadowrun was FASA'a PnP RPG and it used LOTS of d6s, sometimes more than 10. It's a wonderful game, has almost all the rules you need (if you care about that) in a single volume.