Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Underrail is mediocre (imo)

Serus

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
6,702
Location
Small but great planet of Potatohole
Boring Combat? As far as non-party based tactical combat goes it's one the best game there is.
That's kinda like talking about the best non-male comedians.
Yes, unfortunately it sometimes feel that way. But, hey at least some (few) female comedians can be hot and nice do look at.
I'd love to see an-Underrail 2/Underrail-like but party based. Still, some encounters can be interesting and very intense despite the limitation.
 

FriendlyMerchant

Guest
Underrail is a game with tons of fetch quests which are explained as follows: go fetch this, go fix this, go do that, as if the player was a post office worker. The problem is there is no other path to complete the quests and no meaningful consequences for completing them.
So what? It's kinda like most rpgs that have ever been created. Plus it's just a video game. Games are for entertainment.

no meaningful consequences
What's a meaningful consequence? If I kill a guy in a cave and then loot their belongings and sell it, that's pretty meaningful. If I pickpocket everyone in town for more money, drugs, and ammo, that's pretty meaningful too! If I complete a quest and get paid for it, that's really meaningful since now I can buy more stuff that can be used to improve my chances in combat.
You are forced to complete the quest in one way, the developer obviously intends unlike Vampire's, Fallout's, Planescape...
It is impossible to complete a quest in any way other than a way the developer intends in any game. But there's no reason why a developer has to have a multiple completion conditions for quests. It's cool when it's done. But the lack of it isn't anything to hold against a game.

There is no interaction between NPCs, whereas Arcanum, released 14 years before, does have.
Interactions between npcs were always fluff. It's a cool thing to see. But it was never necessary and whether or not it's present in a game is never a reason to judge a game. If you want interactions between NPCs however... Try movies or plays. They are full of NPCs interacting! What else could you want here anyways. Do you want the Oblivion NPC conversations at random in every game? For example:

"There are rumors that the Nords are attempting to capture the whole of Solstheim, and remove the imperial fort on the island."
"The Nords have always been protective of their territory. It's no wonder why they get involved in such disputes."
"Greetings!"
"Oh. It's you..."
"Bye!"
"Goodbye."

There are only 2 different maps: Bunkers and caves.
And then there is the underrail maps. The maps in the cities like the sewer.

The game tricks the player into thinking there is a lot of building variety until you discover that many skills and feats are useless.
All skills are used in Underrail. Whether or not a feat is useful is whether or not you've figured out how to use it in conjunction with other feats to pull of a gimmick that lets you one-shot enemies in Dominating. The vast majority of feats are useful whether or not they are preferable for a certain difficulty or whether your build needs it.

For example, what's the benefit of Persuasion? None.
There are immediate benefits. For example, high enough persuasion means you can essentially choose your starting weapon. There are also a variety of speech checks that allow you to bypass having to kill someone, can get you more money, or some other useful benefit. However, unlike Intimidation, it doesn't have direct benefits in combat.

What's the benefit of Intimidation? None.
Intimidation has some speech checks like persuasion. It's also used for Yell.

What's the benefit of Mercantile? None. ( you get rich pretty fast)
More is not always better.
Mercantile unlocks higher quality items at a few merchants which is good both for crafters and people who don't craft.

And most of the builds end up poorly, so like most players you dig for recommendations on the forums.

Underrail is overloaded with junk, much like Witcher 3, you gather tons of crap with little reason why.
It's for crafting... Like in the Witcher 3. You can also sell it or leave it on the ground (it doesn't despawn)--who would've guessed that you don't have to take every piece of loot you find if you don't need it.

Underrail offers crafting but imagine picking Arcanum's crafting system and draining all the imagination it has, you get underrail's crafting.
Underrail does have a more detailed crafting system than Arcanum.

Walls in underrail make it difficult for the player to aim a target, an issue Fallout 1-2 doesn't have.
Press tab to highlight everything. Enemies are highlighted in red. The only real problem the walls that aren't made opaque when standing next to is the difficulty seeing some traps.


What a shame, I wanted to love it but it's not for me.
That's probably the only correct thing you're said so far.

the number of builds it lures the player into thinking it has

There are a good variety of builds. Just going off weapon types alone since each of these have special feats around them;

Hammers
Knifes
ARs
SMGs
Pistols
Chempistols
Energy Pistols
tAKH8LG.jpg
Spears
Machetes
Shotguns
Throwing knives (though most builds use some throwing anyways for grenades at least).
Xbows
Unarmed

Then there are Psionics which there are a few viable builds with them alone.

With each of those builds, the choice of a preference towards stealth + glass canon, agility+dodge+evasion stacking (often comes with stealth), or tin can where the choice makes sense adds on to that. AR+tin can is an OP option if you know what you're doing. Then there are the hybrids like Psihammer or Psimonk. Are you going to craft things? The choice as to whether or not you will at least doubles the amount of builds. You can choose to do a no-crafting run with the vast majority of builds and do fine.

So there are quite a lot of builds.

The fun in this game stems from min-max autism turned to an absurd degree
This is a combat and character building centered game. This is not a CYOA visual novel emulator like many of the "games" many mistake for rpgs.

The real problem with the game is the need for either someone to have nothing else to play and figure out everything themselves through failed runs or to look up builds. It's problems are that you cannot just naturally play through this game the first time figuring out how things work and what you can or cannot get away with in character building while still being able to complete the game. Though there's an easy mode for that I guess.
 

FriendlyMerchant

Guest
No build will change the ridiculously slow walking speed, copy-pasted locations, the fetch quests, the boring combat, the static world,uninteresting crafting system, etc...
It's obviously the player's fault.
Press + on the 10-key part of your keyboard.
 

ciox

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Messages
1,302
incredibly obvious bait ("only maps are bunkers and caves") with largely positive reactions

troll_9.png
 

Jack Of Owls

Arcane
Joined
May 23, 2014
Messages
4,332
Location
Massachusettes
I played this game for a while and hated the major screen tearing when you scrolled a large map unless you had vsync enabled. Then when you enabled vsync it had the worst mouse input lag I ever saw in a 2D game relying on big scrollable maps; Unbearable in fact... until I discovered a neat trick: you can enable vsync, get no screen tearing whatsoever, and smite that input lag by subtracting 0.01 from your monitor's refresh rate (in my case 60Hz - 0.01 = 59.98 Hz) and putting that value into your RTSS Rivatuner's frame rate limiter, then enabling vsync and profit! No screen tearing, no mouse input lag. This technique also works with the similarly engined Original War, which also has screen tearing without vsync and input lag with. Sure, it's fun for the sperg-minded to do this but hey; no one likes mouse input lag or screen tearing.
 

PorkaMorka

Arcane
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
5,090
Mega brofist for the first post, but you lose me when you go on to use Fallout as a positive example.

To me it seems like Underrail further exposed flaws in the Fallout formula, or at least limitations in how monocled that formula can be.

I did enjoy Fallout in the 1990s, but mostly for normie, casual gamer reasons, like the cool atmosphere, cool animations, dumb but fun plot, nice graphics, etc.

Luckily, Fallout was mechanically shallow and easy, so I didn't have to try very hard to make a viable character build and just casually breezed through it having mindless, unchallenging fun... for one playthough.

If you actually made a version of Fallout that was challenging and had mechanical depth... it would be more like Underrail. Which means you'd have to either copy some guy's build off the internet, spend hours reading mechanics for a game you haven't played yet or play a shitty character on a low difficulty level, then either restart or make a good character on a later playthrough.

This is a fundamental problem with the CRPG formula where you play a single character for the entire game and commit to your build early on, in a complex home brew character building system with a lot of power variance between builds. Whether or not a build is good is essentially arbitrary, you can't reason it out, it just depends on hidden math coded into the game, the player has no way to know if his character will be good before he commits to playing that build for 70 hours.

By the time you have learned the mechanics through gameplay, it's too late to use that information to make a good build for your current character, you were locked into a shitty build at character creation when you didn't know any better.

Main reason this was less of a problem in Fallout was because Fallout was more casual and optimization didn't matter much.

But other games allow you to actually learn the mechanics through gameplay and build your characters accordingly, as you play through the game. That's fundamentally a better formula.
 
Last edited:

Sjukob

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2015
Messages
2,062
If anything, the faceless are the real bad guys. Smashing up Core City, murdering people all over the underrail, real civilized behaviour am I right?
The faceless should've been purely hostile, yes. Underrail lacks THE enemy that teases you in the beggining and then slowly becomes more dangerous as the story progresses further. Faceless would've fit the role perfectly with the opening cutscene in Core City, Buzzer shop takeover and the other encounters, they even have their own evil theme. What's even better is that they are hard to take on early and beating them could've been a good way to see how tough you really are. But in the end there are no real benefits for antagonizing the faceless, I have no idea why Styg made them like that. What a fucking waste.
 
Joined
Jan 1, 2011
Messages
588
Good luck explaining how Tchort is some inherently evil monster. Tchort is a good boy, he dindu nuffin, he just hangs out in the underground lab and helps the Tchortists with their science projects.
That one unique named tchortling got dialogue added in one of the recent updates. He doesn't seem very happy about being a tchortling. Bit rude of Tchort to do that to him.
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,876,057
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
Damn, first quest in the game. You can use Stealth to bypass Rathounds, lock them behind fences, restart the main generator, Intimidate the vagrant and you've finished the first quest in the game without fighting.

Next one please.
It is impossible to totally avoid combat in Fallout because you can't use Speech on the rat outside the vault.
 

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
Patron
Developer
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
4,460
Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Good luck explaining how Tchort is some inherently evil monster. Tchort is a good boy, he dindu nuffin, he just hangs out in the underground lab and helps the Tchortists with their science projects.
That one unique named tchortling got dialogue added in one of the recent updates. He doesn't seem very happy about being a tchortling. Bit rude of Tchort to do that to him.

I haven't seen that updated dialogue, but if Tchort did something bad to him then he probably deserved it. Also, no Tchort is beyond redemption, I'm not going to attack Tchort for hurting one man when I'm supposed to forgive the faceless mutants for rampaging across the entire map.
 

Serus

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
6,702
Location
Small but great planet of Potatohole
Mega brofist for the first post, but you lose me when you go on to use Fallout as a positive example.

To me it seems like Underrail further exposed flaws in the Fallout formula, or at least limitations in how monocled that formula can be.

I did enjoy Fallout in the 1990s, but mostly for normie, casual gamer reasons, like the cool atmosphere, cool animations, dumb but fun plot, nice graphics, etc.

Luckily, Fallout was mechanically shallow and easy, so I didn't have to try very hard to make a viable character build and just casually breezed through it having mindless, unchallenging fun... for one playthough.

If you actually made a version of Fallout that was challenging and had mechanical depth... it would be more like Underrail. Which means you'd have to either copy some guy's build off the internet, spend hours reading mechanics for a game you haven't played yet or play a shitty character on a low difficulty level, then either restart or make a good character on a later playthrough.

This is a fundamental problem with the CRPG formula where you play a single character for the entire game and commit to your build early on, in a complex home brew character building system with a lot of power variance between builds. Whether or not a build is good is essentially arbitrary, you can't reason it out, it just depends on hidden math coded into the game, the player has no way to know if his character will be good before he commits to playing that build for 70 hours.

By the time you have learned the mechanics through gameplay, it's too late to use that information to make a good build for your current character, you were locked into a shitty build at character creation when you didn't know any better.

Main reason this was less of a problem in Fallout was because Fallout was more casual and optimization didn't matter much.

But other games allow you to actually learn the mechanics through gameplay and build your characters accordingly, as you play through the game. That's fundamentally a better formula.

Fallouts - challenging - with depth, and this is somehow wrong because you'd have to think on a build for a more than a few seconds? We are on very different pages here.

As to Underrail you can try to do what makes sense and not play on harder difficulties. That's what difficulties are for. Also, yes - what a terrible thing to do - read the mechanics, descriptions of stats and skills, etc... Reading is the hard for a casual player but the game wasn't meant for them anyway. Builds aren't that complicated, use your brain and what you have just read and you can make a build that will work on easy with... ease, probably on normal too. Most sensible builds work, little risk of making it unplayable. Power variance is irrelevant as long as the "low powered" builds are still viable. All that assuming you don't just go with random picks but it applies to any games with build choices the same

The "other games" use a formula that allows for relatively simpler mechanics to work. Complex systems cannot be always easily sliced up into parts with progressive complexity. And no matter how slow you make new mechanics available to the player you still need to make major build choices at the start in most rpg games because you need to choose stats, often race, etc... Which means you need to read or go blind just the same. You need those preliminary choices and you need them to matter if you want to have a crpg. The difference is the amount of reading you need to do which is incidentally the difference between a niche game and a game for casual player. There is no "fundamentally" better formula here. Just ones for different types of games.

One thing that I can think that could be done better, the author should have created a few pre-made character builds. That would alleviate some of the problems you mentioned.
 

Saravan

Savant
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
926
So after so many years of worshipping underrail codexers are now brofisting into heaven op post that shits on this majestically monocled 16th best ever crpg ever created?
What a joke this site has become :lol:, if flip-flopping could generate electricity codex could power entire milky way galaxy.

It's all about whether something goes mainstream. The second it does you have to change your view. The Bastard Sword of Contrarian Edge +5 must remain in peak condition at all times.

Also:

ny662Dy.png


This alone should disqualify OP from having an opinion on the quality of games tbh.
 

Serus

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
6,702
Location
Small but great planet of Potatohole
Good luck explaining how Tchort is some inherently evil monster. Tchort is a good boy, he dindu nuffin, he just hangs out in the underground lab and helps the Tchortists with their science projects.
That one unique named tchortling got dialogue added in one of the recent updates. He doesn't seem very happy about being a tchortling. Bit rude of Tchort to do that to him.

I haven't seen that updated dialogue, but if Tchort did something bad to him then he probably deserved it. Also, no Tchort is beyond redemption, I'm not going to attack Tchort for hurting one man when I'm supposed to forgive the faceless mutants for rampaging across the entire map.
And i am not going against a queen of some Latin America country who wanted to make it strong and truly independent and who's husband, clearly on CIA payroll, hired me to kill her. I want to go against the agency.
 

jackofshadows

Magister
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Messages
4,545
This is a fundamental problem with the CRPG formula where you play a single character for the entire game and commit to your build early on, in a complex home brew character building system with a lot of power variance between builds. Whether or not a build is good is essentially arbitrary, you can't reason it out, it just depends on hidden math coded into the game, the player has no way to know if his character will be good before he commits to playing that build for 70 hours.
I'm not sure what other games you imply (never heared of such RPGs). But Underrail designed to avoid exactly that. Simply put, there's a relatively big starting area which ends with chokepoint (Depot A end) and if your build really sucks, you wouldn't be able to reach even that (As OP). If you were able to past through however then the chances to complete the game are close to 100% especially now after some end location adjustments. The only unfair thing in UR for blind playthroughs are strength requirements for certain weapons and armors.

Ironic that OP complaines about meaningful consequences in quests while UR does conseqences right in old-school sense: desicions in the character creation and later on are actually matter. Unlike in some modern RPGs like DivOS2 or ATOM which betray this principal thanks to requests from casual whiny players. And again - that's fine for those who play them I guess but don't try to twist the rare niche games made with old-school vision.
 

PrK

Savant
Patron
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
234
I'm very into cock and ball torture
All those edgelords shitting on the best RPG of the past decade should try harder if they don’t want to be exposed as the tasteless faggots that they are.
 

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,828
One thing that I can think that could be done better, the author should have created a few pre-made character builds
The underrail character builder should have been included in the game, with the option to save local copies of your character so it can be uploaded to the online chargen and then shared via link. Being able to mock up a character in-game right off of the main menu would be really helpful for this type of game, plus the inclusion of premade characters (pre-made skill/stat/spec allocations going all the way up to 30 if you want to view) so that the player can use models to modify. That's what I did back in the day of Fallout 1. Click modify on a premade, read the description boxes, and go to town modifying.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom