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Underrail'n'incline

Catfish

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So I'm playing Underrail. Got it on the day of release, but have not finished yet (pesky work, family etc getting in the way :), plus a broken perk caused an unfortunate restart, plus I like to take games I enjoy slow).

This game makes me genuinely happy. I don't know what it is, but I haven't had such a genuinely great time with a new release for a very long time.

My question to the codex is why? What makes the incline feel so steep? Why did wl2 and poe feel meh (not a criticism or an attempt to troll, just a personal feeling, your mileage may very well vary). What puts this one so far ahead?

I mean the writing isn't particularly earthshattering. Some of the mechanics are antiquated to a fault (though stealth and traps are imho genius this time around). The visual style is solid but not all that unique.

So why does this game make me (and many codexers, so it seems) so happy?
 

Hobo Elf

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It's better than the other crap being peddled put there. You can easily feel that it is a labour of love. It has nice systems and the Oddity XP is a really cool idea with an equally good implemention. It's not the best game ever that the Codex is making it out to be, however.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It's a single character RPG so your character building choices have more of an impact.

Imagine playing Deus Ex. Now imagine playing Deus Ex except you have a bunch of NPCs following you around who can hack computers and pick locks for you if you're not trained in those skills. Not as exciting, right?

Oh, and because you have a bunch of people following you, there are a bunch more enemies to fight to keep things challenging. Suddenly you're playing a different kind of game, a combat game. And Deus Ex's combat ain't that great.
 
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Catfish

Learned
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It's better than the other crap being peddled put there. You can easily feel that it is a labour of love. It has nice systems and the Oddity XP is a really cool idea with an equally good implemention. It's not the best game ever that the Codex is making it out to be, however.

Better is arguable. Mechanically, it is in league with wasteland and pillars. I'd say the labor of love is closer to the answer, but this is what I really want to know - why is it that minimal game design based on treaded paths works so well here and seemingly fails in analogous projects like the ones I mentioned.

It's good for what it is.™

True. But the question is why. I mean the expected elements are all typical, and the seemingly novel ones are, and this brings me to the next point...

It's a single character RPG so your character building choices have more of an impact.

Imagine playing Deus Ex. Now imagine playing Deus Ex except you have a bunch of NPCs following you around who can hack computers and pick locks for you if you're not trained in those skills. Not as exciting, right?

Oh, and because you have a bunch of people following you, there are a bunch more enemies to fight to keep things challenging. Suddenly you're playing a different kind of game, a combat game. But Deus Ex's combat ain't that great.

...the next point. Deus Ex is a more than valid comparison. In some respects (particularly in terms of certain game mechanics and level design) this game is more of a spiritual successor to the original DE than to, say, FO1-2.

But come on. There is some intangeable quality to this one that just clicks, and it is not purely mechanical. Don't substitute analysis with analogy.
 

Carrion

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For me Underrail is great because it's not just a rehash of old but actually has plenty of good, fresh ideas of its own despite still being very old school all around. WL2 felt like a mishmash of different elements that never really formed any kind of a coherent whole, whereas for example PoE and Shadowrun kind of felt like a diluted version of the real thing. Underrail doesn't just try to imitate older games but actully builds upon them in several ways, and it often gives you that "why hasn't anyone thought of this before?" feel that's always a sign of a good game. I don't think it's necessarily on par with the classics as a whole, as it isn't truly exceptional in any single area, but it doesn't have any major flaws either, and it's more consistently good than any of the big Kickstarter releases.
 
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Crooked Bee

(no longer) a wide-wandering bee
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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I disagree about Underrail being mechanically weak/same old. For me, it's the first RPG ever to make turn-based single-character combat genuinely great. It also has one of the best stealth systems in an RPG. Generally, I believe its systems are very strong and the best (some would say the only good) aspect of the game.
 

Catfish

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Underrail doesn't just try to imitate older games but actully builds upon them in several ways, and it often gives you that "why hasn't anyone thought of this before?" feel that's always a sign of a good game.

See, the moment I try to pinpoint the specifics on that "that" I run into weirdness - nothing is really new or exceptional, yet it really really works. Hence the question.

I mean several very valid comparisons were made: isometric deus ex, true fallout sequel etc. but the more I try to analyze, the more I get the feeling there is a sweet secret hidden between the plate mail.

I disagree about Underrail being mechanically weak/same old. For me, it's the first RPG ever to make turn-based single-character combat genuinely great. It also has one of the best stealth systems in an RPG. Generally, I believe its systems are very strong and the best (some would say the only good) aspect of the game.

Well, Deus Ex explored the possibilities of being successful at stealth and hacking in rpg format a decade and a half ago. Single player combat was good in more games than I can name.

Come on, the truth is somewhere outside these, I can feel it :)
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

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I disagree about Underrail being mechanically weak/same old. For me, it's the first RPG ever to make turn-based single-character combat genuinely great. It also has one of the best stealth systems in an RPG. Generally, I believe its systems are very strong and the best (some would say the only good) aspect of the game.
It's too gamey and arbitrary but it werks I guess.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
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Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,883
Underrail doesn't just try to imitate older games but actully builds upon them in several ways, and it often gives you that "why hasn't anyone thought of this before?" feel that's always a sign of a good game.

See, the moment I try to pinpoint the specifics on that "that" I run into weirdness - nothing is really new or exceptional, yet it really really works. Hence the question.

I mean several very valid comparisons were made: isometric deus ex, true fallout sequel etc. but the more I try to analyze, the more I get the feeling there is a sweet secret hidden between the plate mail.

I disagree about Underrail being mechanically weak/same old. For me, it's the first RPG ever to make turn-based single-character combat genuinely great. It also has one of the best stealth systems in an RPG. Generally, I believe its systems are very strong and the best (some would say the only good) aspect of the game.

Well, Deus Ex explored the possibilities of being successful at stealth and hacking in rpg format a decade and a half ago. Single player combat was good in more games than I can name.

Come on, the truth is somewhere outside these, I can feel it :)
It takes existing good games of the past and improves on bad stuff and leaves the good parts same. It is what we all imagined for the future when we played Fallout 1 and 2. We for sure didn't imagine crap like F3 that changed everything (good and bad) and mostly made it worse as a result.
 

Ellef

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It's one of the few RPGs that builds a solid base first instead of all the 'wouldn't this be cool' gimmick non-systemic c&c and reactivity.
 

Eyestabber

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I've been meaning to write this comparison for a long time, and this thread seems to be the right place: I notice that Underrail and AoD took completely different paths regarding cRPG tropes. AoD decided to keep the depth and challenge and took a "kill it with fire!" stance regarding cRPG tropes. VD the guy in Teron's basement even jokes about it. Underrail follows a different route and embraces every single cRPG trope in the history of cRPG. It's like Styg had a checklist. "Cavern full of rats? CHECK! Slow early game? CHECK! 'Go there and whack bandit leader' quest? CHECK! Turtle steps? CHECK!"

I can't provide "definitive and objective proof"™ but I'm pretty sure the same ppl thrashing AoD because "lolol, fast travel. 0/10" are now installing and using speedhack to be able to minimize the time Underrail wastes. Because, guess what? Turtle stepping doesn't add anything to the game other than busting the player's balls. IMHO if the path between point A and point B is completely safe, then WHY THE FUCK do I have to slowly walk through 7-9 screens? I don't use the crafting benches in my house in Core City simply because I cringe to even consider moving my entire stash to THE most inconveniently placed house/base ever. The house stands in a corner of Core City that has absolutely NOTHING. The closest thing is Praetorian Security, and that is STILL two (or three) screens away.

/Endrant

Now the thing that does make UR great is its system. There are so many viable builds and fun mechanics to use in combat one simply can't get enough of it. That's the thing I believe UR did better than AoD: system integration. While both games have stealth, pickpocket and traps, in AoD these things are only used in the CYOA parts of the game, while in UR these systems are all fully integrated. Stealthing close to an enemy, casting fear and then watching as he flees straight into the minefield I created earlier is simply too much fun. As much as I consider AoD's combat system to be just-as-good-perhaps-better-because-it's-much-better-balanced, I will admit that the "rogue/thief/assassin" playstyle in AoD is a not as fun due to not being able to freely use any combination of stealth/traps/etc for maximum fun and giggles.

UR is a combatfag game all the way. It's not just the most fun thing to do, it's also the ONLY thing to do. Try making a "talky peace and love" gay character and you WILL get shafted. Luckily that doesn't bother me at all, since finding the optimal strategy for extinguishing virtual life in RPGs is simply my calling. :smug:
 

kwanzabot

Cipher
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
597
I've been meaning to write this comparison for a long time, and this thread seems to be the right place: I notice that Underrail and AoD took completely different paths regarding cRPG tropes. AoD decided to keep the depth and challenge and took a "kill it with fire!" stance regarding cRPG tropes. VD the guy in Teron's basement even jokes about it. Underrail follows a different route and embraces every single cRPG trope in the history of cRPG. It's like Styg had a checklist. "Cavern full of rats? CHECK! Slow early game? CHECK! 'Go there and whack bandit leader' quest? CHECK! Turtle steps? CHECK!"

I can't provide "definitive and objective proof"™ but I'm pretty sure the same ppl thrashing AoD because "lolol, fast travel. 0/10" are now installing and using speedhack to be able to minimize the time Underrail wastes. Because, guess what? Turtle stepping doesn't add anything to the game other than busting the player's balls. IMHO if the path between point A and point B is completely safe, then WHY THE FUCK do I have to slowly walk through 7-9 screens? I don't use the crafting benches in my house in Core City simply because I cringe to even consider moving my entire stash to THE most inconveniently placed house/base ever. The house stands in a corner of Core City that has absolutely NOTHING. The closest thing is Praetorian Security, and that is STILL two (or three) screens away.

/Endrant

Now the thing that does make UR great is its system. There are so many viable builds and fun mechanics to use in combat one simply can't get enough of it. That's the thing I believe UR did better than AoD: system integration. While both games have stealth, pickpocket and traps, in AoD these things are only used in the CYOA parts of the game, while in UR these systems are all fully integrated. Stealthing close to an enemy, casting fear and then watching as he flees straight into the minefield I created earlier is simply too much fun. As much as I consider AoD's combat system to be just-as-good-perhaps-better-because-it's-much-better-balanced, I will admit that the "rogue/thief/assassin" playstyle in AoD is a not as fun due to not being able to freely use any combination of stealth/traps/etc for maximum fun and giggles.

UR is a combatfag game all the way. It's not just the most fun thing to do, it's also the ONLY thing to do. Try making a "talky peace and love" gay character and you WILL get shafted. Luckily that doesn't bother me at all, since finding the optimal strategy for extinguishing virtual life in RPGs is simply my calling. :smug:


I just caught aspergers reading that
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,883
I've been meaning to write this comparison for a long time, and this thread seems to be the right place: I notice that Underrail and AoD took completely different paths regarding cRPG tropes. AoD decided to keep the depth and challenge and took a "kill it with fire!" stance regarding cRPG tropes. VD the guy in Teron's basement even jokes about it. Underrail follows a different route and embraces every single cRPG trope in the history of cRPG. It's like Styg had a checklist. "Cavern full of rats? CHECK! Slow early game? CHECK! 'Go there and whack bandit leader' quest? CHECK! Turtle steps? CHECK!"

I can't provide "definitive and objective proof"™ but I'm pretty sure the same ppl thrashing AoD because "lolol, fast travel. 0/10" are now installing and using speedhack to be able to minimize the time Underrail wastes. Because, guess what? Turtle stepping doesn't add anything to the game other than busting the player's balls. IMHO if the path between point A and point B is completely safe, then WHY THE FUCK do I have to slowly walk through 7-9 screens? I don't use the crafting benches in my house in Core City simply because I cringe to even consider moving my entire stash to THE most inconveniently placed house/base ever. The house stands in a corner of Core City that has absolutely NOTHING. The closest thing is Praetorian Security, and that is STILL two (or three) screens away.

/Endrant

Now the thing that does make UR great is its system. There are so many viable builds and fun mechanics to use in combat one simply can't get enough of it. That's the thing I believe UR did better than AoD: system integration. While both games have stealth, pickpocket and traps, in AoD these things are only used in the CYOA parts of the game, while in UR these systems are all fully integrated. Stealthing close to an enemy, casting fear and then watching as he flees straight into the minefield I created earlier is simply too much fun. As much as I consider AoD's combat system to be just-as-good-perhaps-better-because-it's-much-better-balanced, I will admit that the "rogue/thief/assassin" playstyle in AoD is a not as fun due to not being able to freely use any combination of stealth/traps/etc for maximum fun and giggles.

UR is a combatfag game all the way. It's not just the most fun thing to do, it's also the ONLY thing to do. Try making a "talky peace and love" gay character and you WILL get shafted. Luckily that doesn't bother me at all, since finding the optimal strategy for extinguishing virtual life in RPGs is simply my calling. :smug:
1. I bash AoD for teleporting and I don't use speedhacks in Underrail. I would say opposite, people that enjoy AoD teleporting actually use speedhacks in Underrail
2. Combat is not the only thing in Underrail. While yea you cannot make "I am a lover, not a fighter" like in Fallout and finish the game, the little stories around the Underrail are a pleasure to read. I enjoyed reading the descriptions and conversations as much as I enjoyed the combat and free form exploration.
 
Self-Ejected

Bubbles

I'm forever blowing
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Messages
7,817
people that enjoy AoD teleporting actually use speedhacks in Underrail

Actually, I just alt-tab out and do some light reading while my character walks to the next map transition, wait until I hear the soundtrack change, tab back in, click on the next transition, tab out again, etc. etc. The downside is that the stuff I read is usually more interesting than the things my character is walking towards, so I'm not getting much gameplay done. Anyone have a speedhack link for me?
 

Goral

Arcane
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The Real Fanboy
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Messages
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Poland
people that enjoy AoD teleporting actually use speedhacks in Underrail

Actually, I just alt-tab out and do some light reading while my character walks to the next map transition, wait until I hear the soundtrack change, tab back in, click on the next transition, tab out again, etc. etc. The downside is that the stuff I read is usually more interesting than the things my character is walking towards, so I'm not getting much gameplay done. Anyone have a speedhack link for me?
http://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=1662.0
Thank Ulminati.
I haven't used it yet because I wanted to rate a game based on the vanilla version and not with mods. As for the game, I've changed my opinion about it and think it's worse than I thought.
 

Volrath

Arcane
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Joined
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Messages
4,297
I disagree about Underrail being mechanically weak/same old. For me, it's the first RPG ever to make turn-based single-character combat genuinely great. It also has one of the best stealth systems in an RPG. Generally, I believe its systems are very strong and the best (some would say the only good) aspect of the game.
It's too gamey and arbitrary but it werks I guess.
Can you be any more vague?
 

epeli

Arcane
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
719
I've been meaning to write this comparison for a long time, and this thread seems to be the right place: I notice that Underrail and AoD took completely different paths regarding cRPG tropes. AoD decided to keep the depth and challenge and took a "kill it with fire!" stance regarding cRPG tropes. VD the guy in Teron's basement even jokes about it. Underrail follows a different route and embraces every single cRPG trope in the history of cRPG. It's like Styg had a checklist. "Cavern full of rats? CHECK! Slow early game? CHECK! 'Go there and whack bandit leader' quest? CHECK! Turtle steps? CHECK!"

I can't provide "definitive and objective proof"™ but I'm pretty sure the same ppl thrashing AoD because "lolol, fast travel. 0/10" are now installing and using speedhack to be able to minimize the time Underrail wastes. Because, guess what? Turtle stepping doesn't add anything to the game other than busting the player's balls. IMHO if the path between point A and point B is completely safe, then WHY THE FUCK do I have to slowly walk through 7-9 screens? I don't use the crafting benches in my house in Core City simply because I cringe to even consider moving my entire stash to THE most inconveniently placed house/base ever. The house stands in a corner of Core City that has absolutely NOTHING. The closest thing is Praetorian Security, and that is STILL two (or three) screens away.

Pretty good analysis. UR is classic CRPG improved, AoD is a fresh take on the genre. It's amazing to suddenly have two great RPGs that are completely different. Just few years ago, no one even dreamed of seeing two releases like that within the same year.


I can't speak for others, but I'm the direct antithesis of the people you described in the second paragraph. I enjoy Underrail's pace, but on the other hand I also view AoD's fast travel as the first proper implementation of fast travel as a convenience feature. :idort:

But when cooping D:OS for example, I cringe every time I have to run back and forth in The End of Time or walk from Cyseal North Gate to the market and/or crafting stations. Fuck. That. If game is built around arbitrary teleporting for convenience, said convenience feature should at the very least be actually convenient and let you teleport exactly where you want. No lame midway compromises. The coop aspect makes it even worse, at least for me. Free time doesn't always match with friends and that leaves little time for anything extra (I guess this is what being a casual gamer feels like; hoping for more dumbing down streamlining due to lack of time). And don't get me started on bad worldbuilding with illogical waypoint placement...

Age of Decadence really did a great job with its in-town fast travel. It was always there, well integrated into the UI as a humble convenience feature you could use to get exactly where you wanted. But on the other hand, it didn't feel like a necessity or a core game mechanic in the same way fast travel systems often do. (Well, except some of the forced dialog teleports, but overall even that was consistent and good system.)
 

hell bovine

Arcane
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
2,711
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Secret Level
I can't provide "definitive and objective proof"™ but I'm pretty sure the same ppl thrashing AoD because "lolol, fast travel. 0/10" are now installing and using speedhack to be able to minimize the time Underrail wastes. Because, guess what? Turtle stepping doesn't add anything to the game other than busting the player's balls. IMHO if the path between point A and point B is completely safe, then WHY THE FUCK do I have to slowly walk through 7-9 screens? I don't use the crafting benches in my house in Core City simply because I cringe to even consider moving my entire stash to THE most inconveniently placed house/base ever. The house stands in a corner of Core City that has absolutely NOTHING. The closest thing is Praetorian Security, and that is STILL two (or three) screens away.
It is not the teleporting alone that was the issue for me in AoD, just like it isn't the slow walking speed alone that is the issue for me in Underrail. I use speedhack, because the slow walking speed combined with lots of nearly empty areas, that don't contain anything interesting, annoys me. I dislike the teleporting system (and I don't mean town fast travel, but teleports happening during quests), because it is combined with quests solved by skill checks in dialogues, which at some point makes you feel like you are reading one of those "multiple choices" stories. I simply can't stand books written in this format and - no surprise - I can't stand games using it either.

My biggest gripe with Underrail is that it under-utilizes its own combat system. With how different character builds can be, different disabling methods (psi, blindness, traps, stuns), factors that determine damage (weapon speed, shields, dodge and evasion, resistances), and different types of damage (traps, spells, weapons), the enemy encounters could benefit from AI that is capable of working in groups, and from groups being more varied. Deep caverns are by far the worst offender and a prime example of squandering that potential.
 

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