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Underrail'n'incline

Darth Roxor

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jagged alliance 2 is still the king of kombat and it somehow manages to achieve that without any silly quasi-magical abilities

makes u think innit

but damn i wish all them op non-restricted mortars and bazookas would go on cooldown or sth to balance them out
 

oneself

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Of course certain choices will always be better than other choices based on various factors, you have a problem when something is *always* better.

Cooldown-based systems chicken out by not giving a fuck about having choices that are always better, because it just puts an arbitrary restriction on how often you can use it. Tweaking how often doesn't feel OP is a lot easier than taking into account dozens of possible scenarios.

Not quite. CD systems realizes that something being better than another is inevitable given two very simple premises. (1)Choices exists and (2)Choices are not the same. Therefore they balance that by taking a choice out of the equation completely for some duration.

Posting that makes you seem p. dumb.

That happens because SPECIAL is a complete unbalanced disaster. AP costs, accuracy modifiers, movement, crit damage, etc. Nothing that has a number in that system looks like it had more than 5 minutes of consideration.

You are supposing that those things changes, you can arrive at some magical point where they are equally good. IMO in order for choices to be meaningful, there has to be differences. Unless you strive for an illusion of choice.
 
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Excidium II

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Actually I lied, I always read everyone's posts.

Don't improve anything because for an ability to be useful and not overly troll you via RNG there has to be a way to make it work reliably.
Let me address this at least: In proper RPGs there are ways to make it reliable. Be it perks, skills, circumstancial modifiers. E.g move to short range, crouch and use aim maneuver with the extra acurate pistol sidearm before doing a called shot to the unarmored head of the poor sod.

AP costs: Already in. And on itseld it doesn't improve anything either. To make the special abilities actually stand out there have to be situations where you would always pick them above standard attacks even with higher AP costs. If you could use disabling ability 1 all the time you would use the same boring disable -> hack to pieces with standard attacks sequence all the time. Great fucking improvement, congrats. So you're back at square one, the game gets too easy.
It's not in enough. AP costs are way too minimal in this game, mostly divorced from movement (which I find a good thing, but you're not penalized enough for moving) and can even be reduced through various means. You can in the same turn throw a grenade, heal yourself, run to the other side of the room to stab someone and have enough ap left to call your mom.

Aimed shots in FO and FO2 don't count, there is nothing special about them.
There actually is, but you seem too much of a noob to know. Again, the problem is that the system is unbalanced enough all you is aim to the eye for the massive crit boost it gives. And the boost is so massive you never get to witness blind status effect. Again: shit balance
 

NotAGolfer

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Aimed shots in FO and FO2 don't count, there is nothing special about them.
There actually is, but you seem too much of a noob to know. Again, the problem is that the system is unbalanced enough all you is aim to the eye for the massive crit boost it gives. And the boost is so massive you never get to witness blind status effect. Again: shit balance
U people post too fast:
I already adressed that.
"Aimed shots in FO and FO2 don't count, there is nothing special about them.
For certain builds you always use them, for others you never do."
jagged alliance 2 is still the king of kombat and it somehow manages to achieve that without any silly quasi-magical abilities

makes u think innit

but damn i wish all them op non-restricted mortars and bazookas would go on cooldown or sth to balance them out
It's called item scarcity.
Doesn't work for Underrail since Styg decided to randomize loot and let merchants refill their stock. Which is a good decision because it works together nicely with the crafting system. Adds a lot to replayability too (in combination with the huge amount of varied builds playing very different from each other).
 
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Excidium II

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Not quite. CD systems realizes that something being better than another is inevitable given two very simple premises. (1)Choices exists and (2)Choices are not the same. Therefore they balance that by taking a choice out of the equation completely for some duration.
CIRCUMSTANCES
 
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Excidium II

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U people post too fast:
I already addressed that.
"Aimed shots in FO and FO2 don't count, there is nothing special about them.
For certain builds you always use them, for others you never do."
It's true, but again it's a matter of poor balance. It's the same way how fallout has modifiers for cover and lighting but by the time you realize those exist it doesn't matter anymore
 

NotAGolfer

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Don't improve anything because for an ability to be useful and not overly troll you via RNG there has to be a way to make it work reliably.
Let me address this at least: In proper RPGs there are ways to make it reliable. Be it perks, skills, circumstancial modifiers. E.g move to short range, crouch and use aim maneuver with the extra acurate pistol sidearm before doing a called shot to the unarmored head of the poor sod.
Which would make for a fantastic game, true. Now please point me to that awesome dream game come true, I seem to have missed it.
Even better, how about one with some sort of magic too, different kinds of gun and melee special attacks are a bit too easy to balance that way (I guess you'd point me to AoD else ^^).
 

oneself

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Not quite. CD systems realizes that something being better than another is inevitable given two very simple premises. (1)Choices exists and (2)Choices are not the same. Therefore they balance that by taking a choice out of the equation completely for some duration.
CIRCUMSTANCES

What kind? Environmental circumstances are undependable. So it is more akin "skill/feat" or explosive barrels?

Aimed shots in FO and FO2 don't count, there is nothing special about them.
For certain builds you always use them, for others you never do.

Funny but it is always brought up when talking about aimed shot equivalent not gated by CDs.

And I disagree about them not mattering. Of course they matter. They are a valid choice.
 

NotAGolfer

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Aimed shots in FO and FO2 don't count, there is nothing special about them.
For certain builds you always use them, for others you never do.

Funny but it is always brought up when talking about aimed shot equivalent not gated by CDs.

And I disagree about them not mattering. Of course they matter. They are a valid choice.
*sigh*
Yes, they are. I never disputed that. They are for builds that can reliably land those precision shots to the eyes. And only the eyes (and to a lesser degree the head) are useful, all the other body parts are pointless because they have underwhelming effects compared to nearly guaranteed criticals to the eyes. And for those builds they are the only choice, you don't not aim for the eyes with them. So the choice isn't really one.
 
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Excidium II

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Don't improve anything because for an ability to be useful and not overly troll you via RNG there has to be a way to make it work reliably.
Let me address this at least: In proper RPGs there are ways to make it reliable. Be it perks, skills, circumstancial modifiers. E.g move to short range, crouch and use aim maneuver with the extra acurate pistol sidearm before doing a called shot to the unarmored head of the poor sod.
Which would make for a fantastic game, true. Now please point me to that awesome dream game come true, I seem to have missed it.
Even better, how about one with some sort of magic too, different kinds of gun and melee special attacks are a bit too easy to balance that way (I guess you'd point me to AoD else ^^).
Jagged Alliance

Not quite. CD systems realizes that something being better than another is inevitable given two very simple premises. (1)Choices exists and (2)Choices are not the same. Therefore they balance that by taking a choice out of the equation completely for some duration.
CIRCUMSTANCES

What kind? Environmental circumstances are undependable. So it is more akin "skill/feat" or explosive barrels?
Certain factors always come into play like relative positions. Also unless one sucks at making encounters, there should always be various enviromental factors to consider, at the very least cover and blind spots. But CRPG devs have a tendency to design encounters that are just a tussle inside a big empty room. PoE being one of the worst cases of it in recent memory.
 

NotAGolfer

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Don't improve anything because for an ability to be useful and not overly troll you via RNG there has to be a way to make it work reliably.
Let me address this at least: In proper RPGs there are ways to make it reliable. Be it perks, skills, circumstancial modifiers. E.g move to short range, crouch and use aim maneuver with the extra acurate pistol sidearm before doing a called shot to the unarmored head of the poor sod.
Which would make for a fantastic game, true. Now please point me to that awesome dream game come true, I seem to have missed it.
Even better, how about one with some sort of magic too, different kinds of gun and melee special attacks are a bit too easy to balance that way (I guess you'd point me to AoD else ^^).
Jagged Alliance
Aw come on! Not again. It's fantastic and all but it doesn't feature X files stuff (except for some aliens that look like the ones from the Alien movie in JA 2).
Also squad game and not a lot of special abilities anyway. Doesn't translate well into a single char game where the squad tactics layer completely vanishes.
 
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Niektory

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You really can't see why? The most obvious ones in every game ever would be accuracy modifiers, AP costs, enemy defenses and enviromental circumstances.

One will still be arguably better than another, so there will be little reason to use the worse one. It is why FO2 mid/lategame you never use anything but aimed shot to the eye again.

Which then leads to the problems of variety.
If a game is so broken that certain attacks are always obviously better in all situations, then adding cooldowns will only replace best attack with best attack rotation. This seems superficially better because hey, you're pressing more buttons, but it only hides the real problem, that there's no thought/strategy involved, which is what is actually important IMHO.

What you instead want to do is make different situations call for different approaches so that player who is flexible and knows the advantages of different attacks does better than one that just tries to brute-force with one attack all the time.

Not quite. CD systems realizes that something being better than another is inevitable given two very simple premises. (1)Choices exists and (2)Choices are not the same. Therefore they balance that by taking a choice out of the equation completely for some duration.
So you argue that the ideal game is one with no choices? Uh, no thanks.

Even if there's always a best choice, it's often not obvious. Can you immediately tell what's the best choice in this situation? EDIT: white's turn.

PAfbIh3.jpg


Figuring it out is all the fun. Why do you hate fun?
 
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Excidium II

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Aw come on! Not again. It's fantastic and all but it doesn't feature X files stuff excepft for some aliens that look like the ones from the Alien movie.
Also squad game.
You want a game with interesting systems and original setting in a genre of videogames that was dead for almost as long as it existed, and that has been perpetually stuck in a cycle of generic pseudo-D&D fantasy maze adventures that doesn't even resemble the tabletop games they tried to rip off anymore, like a jpeg picture full of artifacts due to being lossily reuploaded 10000 times.
 

oneself

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*sigh*
Yes, they are. I never disputed that. They are for builds that can reliably land those precision shots to the eyes. And only the eyes (and to a lesser degree the head) are useful, all the other body parts are pointless because they have underwhelming effects compared to nearly guaranteed criticals to the eyes. And for those builds they are the only choice, you don't not aim for the eyes with them. So the choice isn't really one.

Right, and that can be seen as a balance problem, if you care about such things as balance.

Certain factors always come into play like relative positions. Also unless one sucks at making encounters, there should always be various enviromental factors to consider, at the very least cover and blind spots. But CRPG devs have a tendency to design encounters that are just a tussle inside a big empty room. PoE being one of the worst cases of it in recent memory.

You have an example in mind?
 

NotAGolfer

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Even if there's always a best choice, it's often not obvious. Can you immediately tell what's the best choice in this situation?

PAfbIh3.jpg
At least tell us whose turn it is damnit! :argh:
Aw come on! Not again. It's fantastic and all but it doesn't feature X files stuff excepft for some aliens that look like the ones from the Alien movie.
Also squad game.
You want a game with interesting systems and original setting in a genre of videogames that was dead for almost as long as it existed, and that has been perpetually stuck in a cycle of generic pseudo-D&D fantasy maze adventures that doesn't even resemble the tabletop games they tried to rip off anymore, like a jpeg picture full of artifacts due to being lossily reuploaded 10000 times.
Yes. And you know what? I got what I wanted. Underrail. :greatjob:
 

oneself

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If a game is so broken that certain attacks are always obviously better in all situations, then adding cooldowns will only replace best attack with best attack rotation. This seems superficially better because hey, you're pressing more buttons, but it only hides the real problem, that there's no thought/strategy involved, which is what is actually important IMHO.

What you instead want to do is make different situations call for different approaches so that player who is flexible and knows the advantages of different attacks does better than one that just tries to brute-force with one attack all the time.

CD would reduce the relative power and therefore influence of a potential skill. Which complicates the problem, and forcing you to make choices that are less obvious. So I disagree that there is no thought involved, because choices are involved.

Secondly, suppose I agree that CD would only superficially solve the problem, it is at least an attempt to solve the problem.


So you argue that the ideal game is one with no choices? Uh, no thanks.

I never said there were will only be two choices. The ideal game will have a lot of choices, sometime forcing you to make the choices that you wouldn't normally choose.

Even if there's always a best choice, it's often not obvious. Can you immediately tell what's the best choice in this situation?

I don't even know who's turn is it.

So there is no problem with design despite how degenerate and thoughtless it is, it is fine as long as you do not know it yet and therefore, still have to think about it? I'm not sure I agree.
 

NotAGolfer

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The game doesn't only rely on cooldowns anyway, there are skills that are better against some enemies than against others, there are resistances, there is DT, there are area of effect skills, different projectile speeds, armors, a shitton of tools like traps, specialized grenades, throwing knives and bolts, equipment and components with different very situational strengths and weaknesses, special abilities that should be used only at a certain point in combat and not just when the cooldown is over, debuffs and buffs for each buff and debuff an enemy can come up with and they use buffs/debuffs, oh boy do they use them. And the list goes on.
Stop belittling the game, there is a shitton of systems in that work together to create something bigger than the sum of their parts.

Niektory
about the chess problem:
I guess I'm playing white. h3 is threatened (sacrifice by black to crack open the defense) and then the king would be very vulnerable. Also black bishop to e5 would make it critical. And most of my pieces have shitty mobility.
So I'd do sth about it and sacrifice my pawn on h3 by going g2-g3?
No wait, g2-g4
No wait again, g2-g3, g4 makes everything fall apart.
No wait again again, g4 and then don't take the knight h5-g3 bait but move the rook instead. :?
Damnit, this is hard. Ok, last word: bishop f3-g4. Pretty obvious, should have thought of that first.
Now I guess we're playing black and are supposed to find the bishop c8xh3 sacrifice though. :lol:
 
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Excidium II

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You have an example in mind?
Of what?

A skill/feat that takes relative position to mind and whatever environmental circumstances.
Still not sure what you mean. Things like positioning and enviromental circumstances should add modifiers to the action where it makes sense. E.g you are fighting in melee and you maneuver the other guy into moving inside a tile full of rubble that fucks up his footing and then you make use of this to try and knock him down with a (high enough chance to success thanks to modifiers) that makes the action more attractive than simply attacking his face, as it might pay off with being able to absolutely destroy him next turn.

you want something stupid like a special melee attack that deals 250% damage and knocks down but only works if the enemy has legs and got the bad footing debuff?
 

oneself

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You have an example in mind?
Of what?

A skill/feat that takes relative position to mind and whatever environmental circumstances.
Still not sure what you mean. Things like positioning and enviromental circumstances should add modifiers to the action where it makes sense. E.g you are fighting in melee and you maneuver the other guy into moving inside a tile full of rubble that fucks up his footing and then you make use of this to try and knock him down with a (high enough chance to success thanks to modifiers) that makes the action more attractive than simply attacking his face, as it might pay off with being able to absolutely destroy him next turn.

you want something stupid like a special melee attack that deals 250% damage and knocks down but only works if the enemy has legs and got the bad footing debuff?


That seems interesting, and fair as long as you cannot have control over positioning and environmental circumstances. Once you do and this stuff become consistent, you run into the aimed shot problem again.

Also, suppose this is a earned skill, how likely am I to invest into this as opposed to the more reliable stuff? Is the trade-off between investing into this and something else less powerful but also more reliable worth it? Because if this choice exists, and the skill is truly situational, I am unlikely to pick it up to begin with. I would much prefer some boring flat damage improvement.

How would you make sure that people will pick the situational as opposed to the safe without making one clearly superior to another?
 

Niektory

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The game doesn't only rely on cooldowns anyway, there are skills that are better against some enemies than against others, there are resistances, there is DT, there are area of effect skills, different projectile speeds, armors, a shitton of tools like traps, specialized grenades, throwing knives and bolts, equipment and components with different very situational strengths and weaknesses, special abilities that should be used only at a certain point in combat and not just when the cooldown is over, debuffs and buffs for each buff and debuff an enemy can come up with and they use buffs/debuffs, oh boy do they use them. And the list goes on.
Stop belittling the game, there is a shitton of systems in that work together to create something bigger than the sum of their parts.
Yeah, this is all great stuff you don't see too often and the reasons I like Underrail despite some peeves. You know how it is, the more you like a game the more the things that annoy you in it stand out.
 
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Excidium II

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That seems interesting, and fair as long as you cannot have control over positioning and environmental circumstances. Once you do and this stuff become consistent, you run into the aimed shot problem again.
That is just a game of balancing numbers. It's not an inherent problem that cooldowns come to solve.

Also, suppose this is a earned skill, how likely am I to invest into this as opposed to the more reliable stuff? Is the trade-off between investing into this and something else less powerful but also more reliable worth it? Because if this choice exists, and the skill is truly situational, I am unlikely to pick it up to begin with.
This should not be an earned skill. Shoving someone is something any person is feasibly capable of. Having higher strength and fighting skills just naturally makes it easier when locked in melee combat.

This is something that pisses me off greatly about underrail, common sense things locked behind feats. I can be ok with feats making you better at pulling some specific maneuever, as it represents extra dedication to that specific thing like a footballer that is trained to do penalty kicks.

And again, it's a matter of balance. If something is harder to pull off it should be more rewarding, unless you are making some tactical mistake.
 

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