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Moonspeak Undertale - friendship/genocide RPG

Discussion in 'jRPG Weeaboo Discussion' started by lightbane, Sep 14, 2015.

  1. Athelas Arcane

    Athelas
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    I couldn't resist checking out the game after the 'this will change your life forever' levels of hype. I came away disappointed.

    I don't think Undertale is a deconstruction. Or at least, not a successful one. The problem with deconstructing jRPG's is that it requires you to ignore 30+ years of video game canon, since it's a genre that is still faithfully modeled after the earliest Wizardry and Ultima titles to a large extent. Things like pacifism towards enemies and the issue of artificiality of game mechanics have already been tackled by plenty of games - and better, by seamlessly weaving them into the game instead of making them blatantly 4th wall breaking and operating on moon logic like Undertale does.
     
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  2. Jasede Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

    Jasede
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    Care to name those games? I can only think of Cavia titles.

    KOTOR 2?
     
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  3. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

    Damned Registrations
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    Eh, just because other games have done it too doesn't mean this particular one doesn't count. Being first in line isn't worth jack shit imo.
     
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  4. Athelas Arcane

    Athelas
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    My point was that those things were not in need of deconstruction. Having options for stealth/diplomacy (where appropriate), or having a sensible power curve so that your characters don't become gods overnight, is what more RPG's should strive for, they're not things that need subversion anymore than shitty controls or badly designed UI's do.

    A game that is a straight up deconstruction of the genre though? You mean a game that understands the artificiality of save/reload and makes your character an immortal, while simultaneously making his dilemma his inability to die? A game where your stats are primarily tools of introspection rather than killing tools? A game where your seemingly rapid power growth is simply the result of you regaining previously forgotten memories and training? A game where instead of inputting your name and creating your character at the beginning, you only receive your name and identity at the end of the game? Gee, I wonder if such a game exists somewhere.
     
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  5. Jasede Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

    Jasede
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    So you did mean KOTOR 2!

    :smug:

    (The joke is that Obsidian loved the PS:T plot/idea so much, they used it two more times: KOTOR 2 and MotB.)
     
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  6. NotAGolfer Arcane Patron

    NotAGolfer
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    Divinity: Original Sin 2
    I needed their money and XP for the greater good, your honor.
     
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  7. lightbane Arcane

    lightbane
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    Not just the plot. Ravel shows up in Kotor 2 as Kreia. I believe in MoTB she does so as well, but I don't remember who was her incarnation here.

    About OFF, I would add that it's a French game, which means you can already expect something very weird. OFF certainly served as inspiration for Undertale, but it has a VERY different style. OFF is more "traditional", in the sense that you must fight usually evil monsters to progress, you have a party, the main character believes he has a righteous cause, etc. Fortunately, you DO NOT have to grind (combat is quite easy actually). Unfortunately, it is quite short and you'll see everything it has to offer in a single playthrough.
     
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  8. Athelas Arcane

    Athelas
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    Not really. MoTB doesn't deconstruct anything and Kotor 2 is primarily about deconstructing Star Wars. It's a good thing these games told interesting new stories instead of just rehashing Torment.
     
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  9. Gozma Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Gozma
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    I don't think the meta/"deconstructive" shit is all that good, interesting, or important. I think it's even misplaced and stupid, really.

    The main good points are the fact that the guy knew how to maintain a good cute surreal atmosphere with pretty good characters, with pacing that keeps the gameplay mostly in the right point on the tedium -> annoyance continuum. The music (made by the same dude as everything else, which is kinda crazy) is very nice and the art works too.

    I wish somehow it hadn't been advertised as a game designed for a "pacifist" run so you could decide to do that and then realize it's viable. But then it probably wouldn't have sold as well, because that is its gimmick.
     
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  10. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

    Damned Registrations
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    If they didn't advertise it as such the vast majority of people wouldn't have even realized they can do that. People are very very dumb, would likely just kill every single boss and assume that was the only way to play.
     
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  11. Durandal Arcane

    Durandal
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    That kind of summed up my feelings about Iji, where after completing the game you are presented with a bunch of stats, among them a list of how many creeps you've killed.
    Turns out you can play the game without even hurting a fly, which caused text logs, your character cries, and enemy responses to change based on how many you've killed.
    In my defense, going the lethal route for 2D platformers is how I've been taught when I was a kid, it ain't exactly the same when you have a giant MERCY button as one of your command options or your brother telling you that a non-lethal takedown is always the most silent takedown.
    It does make you think, though.
     
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  12. lightbane Arcane

    lightbane
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    It may be blunt how the game presents it, but it is necessary: the strategy to be allowed to "Spare" enemies is not always obvious and, now that Youtubers have started playing this game, even more reason to do so for the mouthbreaters wider audience that will sooner or later play this game.

    Changing the topic, we finally got a Save Editor:
    http://crumblingstatue.github.io/FloweysTimeMachine/

    No idea if it works, but this is making me consider giving the game another go to allow Sans to have a bad time/mess around a little more.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2015
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  13. Crooked Bee (no longer) a wide-wandering bee Patron

    Crooked Bee
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    Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    "Undertale is far more than nostalgia and knowing jokes. It's a tragicomic masterpiece"

    http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/10/15/conversations-with-myself-on-undertales-universal-appeal/

     
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  14. LeStryfe79 President Spartacus Patron

    LeStryfe79
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    "RPGCodex is far more than nostalgia and knowing jokes. It's a tragicomic masterpiece"

    Fixed...Volourn style.
     
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  15. rrc2soft Educated Patron

    rrc2soft
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    Serpent in the Staglands Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
    (Decent) Interview with Toby Fox:
    Show Spoiler



    - Talks about his inspirations (Internet jokes, SNES JRPGs).
    - Hints that Undertale might be ported to consoles (but not nintendo).
    - Hints about his second game.
     
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  16. lightbane Arcane

    lightbane
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    I haven't found orquestral music yet, but this Jazz adaptation of Ghost Battle is quite cool IMO:

     
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  17. Phage Arcane Manlet

    Phage
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    Just got true ending last night. Game is so gud. Probably the goty 2015 to be quite honest codex.
     
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  18. Phage Arcane Manlet

    Phage
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    Alternatively, I think people are placing too much emphasis on the 'meta' stuff. It's not meant to have a deep meaning; it's just a fun, quirky explanation for some of the game's mechanics. It also allows for some pretty great moments like Flowey taunting you if you kill Toriel, then quickly reset and spare her, and the game begging you to not reset after you've gotten the true ending. It's much more in-line with Earthbound in that the 4th wall breaks are more for fun and flavor - versus MGS2 where the meta aspect is actually meant to be taken very seriously.
     
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  19. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

    Damned Registrations
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    I'd agree with that. While I think there is something legitimate to calling out the player for simply resetting the game if things go awry, it was just a minor support of the overall theme of accepting consequences of your decisions and generally bashing the genre (or even just games in general) for their incredibly artificial approach to enemies and gameplay. The Super Bunnyhop guy did part of an episode on this and made a great point about how unlike other games with non-lethal playthroughs, this one isn't some sort of additional mechanic, and it's not a dedicated mechanic either. There are multiple ways of ending combat without killing people. You can just run away; you can injure them until they surrender, even amongst the 'dialogue' type options, you can often choose multiple methods like demoralizing or befriending them. And by the same token, those dialogue options aren't just for non-lethal runs- you can weaken enemies with dialogue and then finish them off as well. This is pretty different from stuff like Deus Ex/MGS having specific alternate combat moves just to be non-lethal while doing the exact same shit otherwise. It's more in line with the mechanics of something like Fallout where you can stealth or bullshit your way through or around situations- you don't need to beat up enemies with your non-lethal wiffle bat instead of the lethal weapon. It makes the pacifist run feel very much like a natural, reasonable option instead of one shoehorned in to sell a bullet point.
     
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  20. lightbane Arcane

    lightbane
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    So, you wanted more orchestral music? Lurking inside the SA forums wasn't that bad this time. Here it is anyway:

    Man, the Internet REALLY loves this game, for good and bad.
     
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  21. Jasede Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

    Jasede
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    Yes, you should've seen the porn I managed to gather!

    [​IMG]
     
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  22. Renegen Arcane

    Renegen
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    There's skeletons.
     
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  23. felipepepe Prestigious Gentleman Codex's Heretic Patron

    felipepepe
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    Artist is a poser, Sans moving his mouth is not canon.
     
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  24. Jasede Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

    Jasede
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    After not watching the credits for two weeks I finally did, and now I feel sad it's over. I'm such a sentimental person. I hate reading the last page in a book or watching the last episode of a good show. I am so afraid of losing touch with those characters whose little world I got to share for just a little while.

    What a game.
     
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  25. Genma:TheDestroyer Arcane

    Genma:TheDestroyer
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    Probably my favorite piece of Undertale fan art. Had to split it into several pieces, seeing as I don't remember where I got it and it comes out distorted otherwise.


    Show Spoiler


    Conversation can get a bit awkward when both sides know this isn't everyone's first shindig.


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