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KickStarter Underworld Ascendant Pre-Prototype Thread

tuluse

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It's late and it's been a really long day and I'm tired, so I've no idea what you're even talking about when you mention Crooked Bee in this context :M

tuluse I think you overestimate the amount of FP C&C-focused games. Like Infinitron said, I think it's more about the Codex's overall attitude towards isometric vs first person, which is an amusing thing to behold.

tl;dr Not every FP RPG is about "immersion" or "simulation", which I believe is where the Codex tends to err. I couldn't care less about the Thief fan missions personally. Thief mods are nice and all, but... well, yeah.
I'm just trying to figure out why there's no "firstpersonrpgcodex". In this case I was talking specifically about LGS style games though. Not all first person RPGs in general.
 
Unwanted

CyberP

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Infinitron: The lack of support is probably down to LGS games being somewhat niche to begin with. Most of their games sold poorly and there is very few "true" LG style games in existence, and very few people who recognize just what exactly made those games special.

I've no idea what TTLG is doing. They should indeed be heading up fan initiative for support.

Basically, the Codex = top-down/isometric party-based RPGs. This sort of game isn't really Our Thing(tm).

Codex is unworthy of the purest of incline :obviously:
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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It's kids and apathy and decline taste atrophe. I think you either played UU and at least understand the intense focus on simulation (likely to a fault in this campaign) or you didn't play UU and none if it makes sense because you don't know what you have been deprived of during the decline.

In a sense Otherside is forced to take on an industry heavyweight in preaching their virtues. I think that is their differentiator and they need to focus on their strengths. That said, I agree that they need to be more forthcoming with system design choices and other bits. It has been 2 solid weeks of describing emergent gameplay. You have two weeks left, talk about something else so people who want you to succeed are not turned off.

If you look closely in this update at the video there is some new concept art, some new music, some sound effects, some new mechanics at work. Make a video about those things while not talking about other things. Hopefully they reveal more quickly.

I have been impressed with their interaction on the forums and they answer questions there but too many answers are vague or they talk about leaving options open. Fair enough, but decide on some details that you can share and share them.
 

yaster

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Immersive sims never really took over as a genre. It's kinda description of LGS games and they are all very different. There is no strong definitions of them, it's all diluted. Thief is a stealth game, SS1 is a shooter, UU is an RPG. You can't rely on whole thief fanbase jumping on the Underworld bandwagon, some of them actually are stealth fans, not immersive sims fans.
 
Unwanted

CyberP

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It has been 2 solid weeks of describing emergent gameplay.

That's a little hyperbolic, but yes, showing more will help.
If anything I want to hear about interaction systems & RPG systems.

You can't rely on whole thief fanbase jumping on the Underworld bandwagon, some of them actually are stealth fans, not immersive sims fans.

I don't get the many strict Thief fans. My first LG game blew me away and I absolutely had to see more of what this dev has to offer. Thief does have the least in common with the rest of the Immersive Sims though. It is not as deep overall, but still a solid game of course.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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I noticed something today.

UA_hound.png
 

Darth Roxor

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I think you either played UU and at least understand the intense focus on simulation (likely to a fault in this campaign) or you didn't play UU and none if it makes sense because you don't know what you have been deprived of during the decline.

It's hardly just playing UU that should let you 'get' the idea behind this KS, you should also have the same reaction after playing Thief or System Shock - they weren't that different in principle. And here I was thinking that pretty much every single fucking person on this forum played Thief.

Which brings me to wonder just how the replies would look like ITT if Thief never happened and was pitched on KS today. "A thief simulator? Haha yeah cant wait to LARP picking purses, such exciting'. "Rope arrows, really? They should just focus on making a proper game instead of adding bullshit like this that will never work, probably just a scripted gimmick anyway". "Oh wow another generic fantasy game". "Why add voice acting ffs what a waste of time and funds". "Lol another bunch of con artists who talk about innovashun'. 'Why not just make a turnbased rpg ffs'.


Fuck you dickheads. Fuck you all with a stick up your collective ass.
 

Melan

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There is something sadly ironic about the most legendary "starving artist" studio in the history of the industry being relaunched... and continuing on as a group of starving artists. For all the journos and devs who like to namedrop "the Looking Glass legacy" (while serving up a diluted and contaminated version of it), this KS should have blown away the classic RPG Kickstarters and then some. But it seems they are less respected alive than dead.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the true face of gaming, modern gamers and nostalgia addled greybeards combined. The first group is innocent and clueless, because they know no better than popamole, but the second, the second is guilty because it prefers to worship corpses instead of supporting the living. This is what we have become. This is the true :decline:. Hand in your monocles and top hats, oh you unbelievers, for you are not worthy!
predikal.gif
Not to repeat myself like a broken record, but... told you so. Darth Roxor speaks the truth. The Kickstarter is not unclear; the key concepts are actually neatly laid out. They want to make a sandbox game with deep environmental interaction and meaningful C&C. That's easy to dismiss as hype because they have become fashionable buzzwords, but the difference is that these people wrote the book on these kinds of games before a dictionary even emerged to describe them. In their updates, they have unerringly exposed the failures which plague the second-rate copycats (like trying to construct an authored "experience", or designing set-pieces along rigid stealth/combat/social pathways). That shows an entirely different level of competence than pushing the nostalgia buttons for a cash handout.

Risk aversion is understandable. If you don't believe in the project, you shouldn't feel compelled to pledge. But don't claim they haven't said anything substantial, because that's being either dense or disingenious. They have laid out their design principles and they have provided examples to go with them. They also have a prototype, which very few KS projects can actually show. (In fact, having one is a double-edged sword, because people are already bashing the graphics after being told eighty times they are placeholders made of generic Unity assets.)

Speaking only for myself, I see this KS as a test of maturity for gaming. However it turns out, we will get what we deserve.
 

Zombra

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Which brings me to wonder just how the replies would look like ITT if Thief never happened and was pitched on KS today.
Interesting idea. In this hypothetical situation, do other stealth games still exist? I'd be inclined to look at something like Styx and go, "Eh, a Styx-alike? Pass." But the first time I heard about Thief in a vacuum I was like, "Shit, really?" So who knows.
 

Melan

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I wonder if part of it is the modding community. If you're looking for a first person simulation fix, well there's about 10 million Thief fan missions and The Dark Mod with a sizable community as well. Plus some similar stuff like Dark Souls.
Not really, I don't think so. Fan missions weed out the need for sub-par games like BS: Infinite or Thief 4, and demonstrate the enduring strengths of good stealth game design. But that doesn't mean most people who play and build them wouldn't jump at the opportunity to get a properly done game in the genre. There are always exceptions, but unlikely to be many.
 

Gozma

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I think a lot of it is that cheap FPS art assets look like complete shit and no one has hit upon some stylistic thing to make them look like something that anyone decided on as a first choice. That's especially bad on a kickstarter where selling the look is about three quarters of the battle. I remember being worried about the Betrayal at Krondor guy trying a cheap-end kickstarter and faceplanting trying to scrape together a BaK style first person world exploration layer prototype, because you just can't do it cheap and not have it look terrible.
 

bloodlover

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Not to repeat myself like a broken record, but... told you so. Darth Roxor speaks the truth. The Kickstarter is not unclear; the key concepts are actually neatly laid out. They want to make a sandbox game with deep environmental interaction and meaningful C&C. That's easy to dismiss as hype because they have become fashionable buzzwords, but the difference is that these people wrote the book on these kinds of games before a dictionary even emerged to describe them. In their updates, they have unerringly exposed the failures which plague the second-rate copycats (like trying to construct an authored "experience", or designing set-pieces along rigid stealth/combat/social pathways). That shows an entirely different level of competence than pushing the nostalgia buttons for a cash handout.

Risk aversion is understandable. If you don't believe in the project, you shouldn't feel compelled to pledge. But don't claim they haven't said anything substantial, because that's being either dense or disingenious. They have laid out their design principles and they have provided examples to go with them. They also have a prototype, which very few KS projects can actually show. (In fact, having one is a double-edged sword, because people are already bashing the graphics after being told eighty times they are placeholders made of generic Unity assets.)

Speaking only for myself, I see this KS as a test of maturity for gaming. However it turns out, we will get what we deserve.

Except that few people care about the mistakes and faiures of copycats. This is already a niche game and like it or not, nostalgia plays a big factor in it.

I was expeting this to be funded very fast, especially since KS brought a game back from the dead (Wasteland 2) and is promising a great RPG in the near future (PoE) but it was not so. I wonder if it's because they have not showed very much so far (or what they showed is shit) or maybe the LG logo is not really worth much anymore to players. They might have waged too much on LG and the games from the past and this might not pay off.
 

thexsa

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Which brings me to wonder just how the replies would look like ITT if Thief never happened and was pitched on KS today.
Interesting idea. In this hypothetical situation, do other stealth games still exist? I'd be inclined to look at something like Styx and go, "Eh, a Styx-alike? Pass." But the first time I heard about Thief in a vacuum I was like, "Shit, really?" So who knows.

Metal Gear Solid is pretty stealthy. All those games have some different rewards and other things for completing the game full stealth vs. guns blazing. All cut-scenes are also skippable. Splinter Cell up to Double Agent were great. Then trash studios like UbiSoft came and fucked it all up with their fake stealth Creed-turds, and ruined the potential of stealth games forever. MGSV does look like a massive incline for the genre over 4, both in the freedom it offers and overall character design, but I guess most codexers are too proud to play a japanese-made game.
 

Bleed the Man

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I think the main problem they're facing is that they're not attracting the relatively young players that don't really like -conceptually at least- the direction that modern RPGs are taking even if they enjoy them, but they haven't played many old school RPGs nor intend to do so because reasons, despite thinking they sound good on paper (for example, people that liked New Vegas a lot more than Fallout 3, but didn't played the originals, and backed Wasteland 2). I think InXile and Obsidian benefited a lot from these people, but in Obsidian case they had a significant fan base already and inXile was making something "similar" to Fallout which is really popular nowadays.
Hell, I think I would fit the bill on what am saying, despite having played lots of "old school" RPGs (more 90s than 80s though), I'm quite young for a site like this one and I started with the genre with AAA modern awesome button crap, the difference is that I became quite passionate for RPGs and start going backwards and play old games because that was the only way to go forward with the genre.

Places like the Codex have their preferences, and a good pitch for a turn based isometric RPG will likely have a warmer reception, but I don't think is places like this one that are responding badly. Other general gaming forums that I visit barely have any interest in this game, despite having payed a lot of attention (for the number of users they have) to games like Wasteland 2, PoE, DOS or SRR.
 
Weasel
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Speaking only for myself, I see this KS as a test of maturity for gaming. However it turns out, we will get what we deserve.

I also wish this was doing better, but "a test of maturity for gaming" seems like quite a broad statement. To me it's more of a test of demand for a certain type of game.

Fans of Iso party-based games threw money at the likes of WL2 and PoE because there was a sense that the industry had stopped making games like that. Kickstarter was the last hope to get something in that vein again. Perhaps some of the old immersive-sim fans weren't quite as desperate and had moved onto stuff like Dark Souls or gone full popamole over the years? Or perhaps it was a more fragmented fanbase to begin with?

And even if there were a few nostalgic types in a genre which has doesn't appear to be overly concerned with looking to the past, Otherside have described themselves as innovators rather than nostalgia merchants. Their most enthusiastic comments are about "revolutionising co-op play".

Yes, earlier kickstarters have got away with showing very little and making vague statements about replicating the IE games or whatever. That intial wave of kickstarter hype and enthusiasm seems to be passing, however, and when you're promising something new and not just scratching an old itch you're probably going to have to show much more than someone who can just point to the mechanics of an old game. Here's hoping that more people move on from commenting on placeholder graphics and focus more on what they're actually trying to achieve here.
 

Zetor

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I think you either played UU and at least understand the intense focus on simulation (likely to a fault in this campaign) or you didn't play UU and none if it makes sense because you don't know what you have been deprived of during the decline.

It's hardly just playing UU that should let you 'get' the idea behind this KS, you should also have the same reaction after playing Thief or System Shock - they weren't that different in principle. And here I was thinking that pretty much every single fucking person on this forum played Thief.

Which brings me to wonder just how the replies would look like ITT if Thief never happened and was pitched on KS today. "A thief simulator? Haha yeah cant wait to LARP picking purses, such exciting'. "Rope arrows, really? They should just focus on making a proper game instead of adding bullshit like this that will never work, probably just a scripted gimmick anyway". "Oh wow another generic fantasy game". "Why add voice acting ffs what a waste of time and funds". "Lol another bunch of con artists who talk about innovashun'. 'Why not just make a turnbased rpg ffs'.


Fuck you dickheads. Fuck you all with a stick up your collective ass.
FWIW, I consider myself a LGS fan. Ultima Underworld 2 is in my top 10 RPG list, System Shock 2 is only slightly behind -- heck, I even finished SS2 in co-op mode! System Shock 1 is also my favorite of all the FPS I have ever played (I liked it more than SS2 from a shooter standpoint). Thing is, though, I never 'got' Thief, and couldn't bring myself to play to the end. I could see that it was a great game, its gameplay just didn't appeal to me on a basic level... so yes, if Thief never happened and someone started a KS for it today, I'd ignore it.

(I backed Underworld Ascendant as soon as the KS launched, btw)
 
Last edited:

Zep Zepo

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Have any initially failed (or closed by dev) Kickstarters relaunched and got funded? I wonder if they just close the current KS, regroup/relaunch when they have more to show if they would do better?

Another thing I noticed. A bunch of the update videos show them wearing the same clothes as previous videos. Like they were all preshot before the Kickstarter started (Really, does that guy only own a Rockband Mic shirt..starving artists indeed).

When I see things like that it seems stale. They are not reacting to the backers but continuing to push their fail state pre-recorded PR.

Zep--
 

Infinitron

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Darkzone

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Fuck you dickheads. Fuck you all with a stick up your collective ass.
Fantastic! Very good. Are you polish?

Not to repeat myself like a broken record, but... told you so. Darth Roxor speaks the truth. The Kickstarter is not unclear; the key concepts are actually neatly laid out. They want to make a sandbox game with deep environmental interaction and meaningful C&C. ... In their updates, they have unerringly exposed the failures which plague the second-rate copycats (like trying to construct an authored "experience", or designing set-pieces along rigid stealth/combat/social pathways). That shows an entirely different level of competence than pushing the nostalgia buttons for a cash handout....
...But don't claim they haven't said anything substantial, because that's being either dense or disingenious. They have laid out their design principles and they have provided examples to go with them. They also have a prototype, which very few KS projects can actually show. (In fact, having one is a double-edged sword, because people are already bashing the graphics after being told eighty times they are placeholders made of generic Unity assets.)
Speaking only for myself, I see this KS as a test of maturity for gaming. However it turns out, we will get what we deserve.
Your post is very good. With just one little problem and that is the two last statements:
The problem is in the second last sentence that it seems people do not understand what Otherside is saying, and this due to the lack of knowledge and the ability to read between the lines of the readers. The problem with the last sentence is that i do not deserve the decline, but the mass is pulling me down.

I remember a game that was extreme ground breaking, it came out in 1984, and it was fantastic. I wondered how can the put such a enormous world on this floppy disc. Years later i have heard that they did this because the used formulas to calculate this world. This game was elite.
Now i hear something as equality fantastic, and now i understand why people do not understand this concept, because it is above their cognitive capabilities.
Everything the people from Otherside sayed has hand and feet and it is given by examples, like the dire fairies. Nothing is their vague, and if it is to vague for someone, then it is due to lack in knowledge.
 

Vault Dweller

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It's hardly just playing UU that should let you 'get' the idea behind this KS, you should also have the same reaction after playing Thief or System Shock - they weren't that different in principle. And here I was thinking that pretty much every single fucking person on this forum played Thief.
We got the idea and the Codex does love Thief, SS, and Bioshock :obviously:, but it takes more than having an idea to get properly funded. KS is about salesmanship and so far these guys have displayed none. They failed to generate excitement which is what it takes to get 3x the asking amount.

Not to repeat myself like a broken record, but... told you so. Darth Roxor speaks the truth. The Kickstarter is not unclear; the key concepts are actually neatly laid out. They want to make a sandbox game with deep environmental interaction and meaningful C&C. That's easy to dismiss as hype because they have become fashionable buzzwords, but the difference is that these people wrote the book on these kinds of games before a dictionary even emerged to describe them. they showed very little and didn't convince anyone.
Fixed.

Basically, look at it this way. If these guys weren't 'people associated with UU', would this game get even 400k? It wouldn't. So far they are riding on reputation and their reputation is good enough to get 400k and possibly the asking amount, but not good enough to get the 3x amount. Can they even make this game with 600k without cutting corners left and right?

Risk aversion is understandable. If you don't believe in the project, you shouldn't feel compelled to pledge. But don't claim they haven't said anything substantial, because that's being either dense or disingenious.
Let's look at the last updates, shall we?

Update #14 - instead of talking about something new it explains the bridge thing again. This time they also mention that destroying the bridge isn't an issue as you can get across in different ways. Different ways across are nice, removing the consequence - not so much.

They mention that specializing in bows makes you more effective at killing things from a distance, which is kinda to be expected.

Then they talk about the factions. Killing some things will lower your rep with the related faction, but the effect isn't explained. So what happens if I kill a bunch of things the Dark Elves hold dear? They stop trading? They stop talking to me? Hunt me down? What?

Then they mention that the world is dynamic and killing some beasts might force other beasts that eat the beasts you killed to move on and might even affect your future quest. Killing the bigger beasts will invite other predators and might make the area too dangerous. They also mention that you can alter the environment and turn a humid bog into a dry plain.

This sounds fucking cool BUT they dedicate to this exciting, rare, super awesome feature a couple of sentences, not an entire update or two. It's like selling Doc Brown's car and mentioning that it doesn't need roads without elaborating. It raises nothing but questions that remain unanswered which turns this potentially cool feature into vague promise of something awesome.

Update #13 - backstory in a short paragraph, honorary mention of Bioshock, Thief-streaming announcement, Facebook banners, Twitter banners, rage rising.

Update #12 - Name that monster - like I give a fuck, badges, watch us play older games announcement

Update #11 - Claim your rewards, exclusive itams! Voice-overs, a Shrouds add-on, a shield that glows, oh my! That's like 3 fucking updates without a word about mechanics but these guys are old school, they play old games and stream them and everything.

Update #10 - get your rewards! Steam greenlight, bored now.
 

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